Post-Game Talk: GM 4 | Welcome to Skid Row | Flames def. Canucks 5-2 (Virtanen, Myers)

[mathonwy]

So, they should have given Marky 6x6 and an NMC..?..and given Tanev the retirement contract?

They should have asked our next gen core what THEY wanted and made it happen.

Hey Quinn. Who do you wanna play with next season?

Umm. Dad?

Too bad. That question was just a formality.

Your opinion actually doesn’t matter because we are the hockey geniuses.

edit.

Players play hard for their teammates first, coach-management secondly and lastly fans.

Tanev, in particular, is a skater and is involved in everything except for the PP.

And "Benning" couldn't cough up 4.5M for him while every other trash free agent his dumbass signed got MONEY as well as TERM.

f***ing hypocritical.

f***ing disrespectful.

f***ing un-Canuck.

Here's to you aquaman.

If you hadn't noticed, posters have been talking about Pat Quinn.

Do you know why?

Because Quinn had integrity and was fair and was a REAL CANUCK.

Quinn had this franchise's interests in his heart and so did Gillis.

Whoever is running this shit show right now doesn't give two flying f***s about Canucks assets.

And.. well...

It's their team... they bought it... and they can do whatever they want with it.

But they sure can't make me blindly support this abomination and neither can they make the players. Eriksson completely checked out while making 6M a year is proof positive of that.

 

[xtra]

So, they should have given Marky 6x6 and an NMC..?..and given Tanev the retirement contract?

they kinda gave the retirement contracts to eriksson and myers and beagle and roussel and ferland so that probably shouldn’t be the Hill you fight this on

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

they kinda gave the retirement contracts to eriksson and myers and beagle and roussel and ferland so that probably shouldn’t be the Hill you fight this on

No argument from me about the bad term on Eriksson,Beagle and Roussel...although that does not correlate to the Markstrom deal.

 

[orcatown]

They should have put the team in a position where those players could have been retained at reasonable deals without putting us in cap hell.

Exactly.

Plus they could have kept Markstrom and traded Demko to get some needed help elsewhere.

In the end, the useless pursuit of OEL left Markstrom situation seemingly in limbo. If nothing else could have trade the negotiating rights to Markstrom for something and maybe to a team in the East.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

They should have asked our next gen core what THEY wanted and made it happen.

Hey Quinn. Who do you wanna play with next season?

Umm. Dad?

Too bad. That question was just a formality.

Your opinion actually doesn’t matter because we are the hockey geniuses.

edit.

Players play hard for their teammates first, coach-management secondly and lastly fans.

Tanev, in particular, is a skater and is involved in everything except for the PP.

And "Benning" couldn't cough up 4.5M for him while every other trash free agent his dumbass signed got MONEY as well as TERM.

f***ing hypocritical.

f***ing disrespectful.

f***ing un-Canuck.

Here's to you aquaman.

If you hadn't noticed, posters have been talking about Pat Quinn.

Do you know why?

Because Quinn had integrity and was fair and was a REAL CANUCK.

Quinn had this franchise's interests in his heart and so did Gillis.

Whoever is running this shit show right now doesn't give two flying f***s about Canucks assets.

And.. well...

It's their team... they bought it... and they can do whatever they want with it.

But they sure can't make it me blindly support this abomination and neither can they make the players. Eriksson completely checked out while making 6M a year is proof positive of that.

Wow...ok...so GM's should first double check with their core players before making any deals..?..Thats a new one.

 

[mathonwy]

Wow...ok...so GM's should first double check with their core players before making any deals..?..Thats a new one.

Yeah dude.

It's called building a team.

It's called consensus building.

It's called the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

It's called creating an open and empathetic culture where employees are encouraged to speak their minds.

QH43 is THE future and he's not a child.

Maybe give Quinn what he wants?

Or maybe we need more grit and leadership and toughness...

Hard to say.

 

[bandwagonesque]

They should have asked our next gen core what THEY wanted and made it happen.

Hey Quinn. Who do you wanna play with next season?

Umm. Dad?

Too bad. That question was just a formality.

Your opinion actually doesn’t matter because we are the hockey geniuses.

edit.

Players play hard for their teammates first, coach-management secondly and lastly fans.

Tanev, in particular, is a skater and is involved in everything except for the PP.

And "Benning" couldn't cough up 4.5M for him while every other trash free agent his dumbass signed got MONEY as well as TERM.

f***ing hypocritical.

f***ing disrespectful.

f***ing un-Canuck.

Here's to you aquaman.

If you hadn't noticed, posters have been talking about Pat Quinn.

Do you know why?

Because Quinn had integrity and was fair and was a REAL CANUCK.

Quinn had this franchise's interests in his heart and so did Gillis.

Whoever is running this shit show right now doesn't give two flying f***s about Canucks assets.

And.. well...

It's their team... they bought it... and they can do whatever they want with it.

But they sure can't make me blindly support this abomination and neither can they make the players. Eriksson completely checked out while making 6M a year is proof positive of that.

Making a post this long this incoherent is kind of impressive.

 

[bandwagonesque]

they kinda gave the retirement contracts to eriksson and myers and beagle and roussel and ferland so that probably shouldn’t be the Hill you fight this on

This has nothing to do with what we’re talking about, which is whether those specific players should have been signed. No one’s disputing that Benning has made terrible UFA moves.

 

[bandwagonesque]

They should have put the team in a position where those players could have been retained at reasonable deals without putting us in cap hell.

No one’s disputing this.

 

[TraderJim]

Wow...ok...so GM's should first double check with their core players before making any deals..?..Thats a new one.

The owner flew to Florida to talk to Luongo. Burke flew to Sweden to talk to the Sedins. Not really a new concept.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Canucks were going to lose either Demko or Markstrom...It was going to be bittersweet either way..They went with a younger option, who would grow with the young core...There is a risk either way....trading away your goalie of the future and committing to an aging goalie (who has a history of groin, knee and hip issues)....which could give you are the Flames/Oilers goalie hell of the last 5 years.

Or Demko, never hitting his ceiling moving forward...

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The owner flew to Florida to talk to Luongo. Burke flew to Sweden to talk to the Sedins. Not really a new concept.

The owner isnt the players (which the poster was referring to)...Having the players decide who plays on the team is a new concept.

 

[B-rock]

Disorganized mess. Give Calgary credit cause they took us apart when they brought pressure and on their breakouts but you've got to withstand that a lot better than the Canucks were doing. Many of the endless penalties were forced by players getting constantly out of position.

Good

Virtanen - far and away his best game although surely not over the top good - but among the rest of the forwards did stand out some. Skating better and making some heads up plays. Started drifting away as the game went on but hard to keep focus when the game is getting way on you that bad. In the end, however, Virtanen is a really weak reed to lean on and it is just as likely he will not show up next game.

Bad

Pettersson - seems to want to prove his manhood out there. Going out of the play to make useless hits and taking bad penalties. Looks like he has come into the season absolutely unready. Not getting himself any space to make a play and out of sync with teammates.

Boeser - doing next to nothing. Skating got loggy at times and fumbling with chances too much. Pettersson line looks a mess.

Horvat - has to be better than this. Loses his wheels and his game falls off a cliff. Work on PP was very poor as he was n mostly a pylon and never making himself anything of an option

Joulevi - ok he can't play - we kind of knew this. Terrible draft choice. Thachuk comparison makes you a little ill. Or actually very ill. Just one more of a litany of bozo moves by the Bozo running the team.

Hamonic - started well but then got back to gifting the other team chances. Play around is net is way to scrabbly.

Beagle - pathetic - shouldn't be in the League. One more year to go on his contract after this one. I'd say right now he's the biggest pylon on the team and that's saying something. How do we end up with such long term crap. Oh ya - Benning

Demko - some good saves but his puck handling was brutal and as the game went on Calgary shooters started to exploit him. Looks like he has some significant holes in his game. That said, he was under near constant pressure for much of the game as the Flames continually drove the puck deep into his crease. Ended up with a lot of frantic melees all around him


Others

Miller - not good but he'll need some time to get his legs under him

Gaudette - least he got chances. Nightmare in his own end

Myers - lots to criticize but at least there was some effort in his play. Might have been our best defenseman and that tells you something about how bad we've been on the back end.

Hughes - misses Tanev so bad. Play is too erratic.

Sutter - might have made enough decent plays not to be called bad. But he was far from good and overall is more or less done as effective NHL player.

Hoglander - starting to come to earth. Still seems the most likely to score but Calgary mostly checked him out of the play.


Last year Canucks got in similar games with Calgary where they were completely outplayed but had Markstrom to save them. Now he is in the other end thanks to the our management. As I have already said I expect a desperation deal out of Benning, which will sell off more of our future, incoming. This team will go no where as long as Benning is in charge and the repair work needed to overcome the damage already done will likely take years.

Posted earlier but seemingly got deleted. Not sure of the reason but maybe moderator can get back to me. Is calling Benning a Bozo out of line. Think he has been called worse.

An objective truth shouldn’t be a punishable offence

 

[mathonwy]

Making a post this long this incoherent is kind of impressive.

Just because you don't understand it... doesn't mean it's incoherent.

Thanks for your feedback though.

 

[HedonisticAltruism]

Gretzky was using the hell out of us and double-dealing to get a better offer from NYR. They were 100% correct to do what they did there. He was never going to play here.

Do you have a source on this? Reports I've come across suggest Gretzky was looking into neighbourhoods, schools, etc - which seems pretty serious, as far as considering any venue. Further, there's precedence with Bure. Of course, to be fair, a large portion of the blame should also be laid at the feet of McCaw, and by no means does my conjecture/opinion mean that had they not pulled the offer, Gretzky would have signed; but, when you're at that stage of your career, one of the most important things is a respectful relationship between parties, of which it was clearly not being established with mutual trust. "Double dealing" is meaningless - he's a free agent and able to deal with whomever he wants on his terms.

Of course, I'd rather have Pat Quinn than Benning... but Gillis still leads the pack, even if he really needed to draft better.

 

[Fatass]

Canucks were going to lose either Demko or Markstrom...It was going to be bittersweet either way..They went with a younger option, who would grow with the young core...There is a risk either way....trading away your goalie of the future and committing to an aging goalie (who has a history of groin, knee and hip issues)....which could give you are the Flames/Oilers goalie hell of the last 5 years.

Or Demko, never hitting his ceiling moving forward...

Isn’t it wiser and better asset management to resign the 30 year old all star goalie and trade the 25 year old who has great value?

 

[HedonisticAltruism]

Isn’t it wiser and better asset management to resign the 30 year old all star goalie and trade the 25 year old who has great value?

Not necessarily. How old was Loui Eriksson when he signed? Demko was the smarter play, given the situation. If Seattle wasn't in play, yeah you sign both.

Letting go of Tanev was terrible - people really underestimated what he brought.

Besides, goaltending is the least of our issues right now.

 

[carrotshirt]

No argument from me about the bad term on Eriksson,Beagle and Roussel...although that does not correlate to the Markstrom deal.

You figure if we had an extra $15m or whatever laying around, we'd still let Markstrom walk for nothing? Jim, is that you?

 

[Fatass]

Not necessarily. How old was Loui Eriksson when he signed? Demko was the smarter play, given the situation. If Seattle wasn't in play, yeah you sign both.

Letting go of Tanev was terrible - people really underestimated what he brought.

Besides, goaltending is the least of our issues right now.

You think Marky and Loui E are comparable, other than age? Was Loui improving and our current MVP?

 

[HedonisticAltruism]

You think Marky and Loui E are comparable, other than age? Was Loui improving and our current MVP?

There were a lot of signs that he was a decent signing to play with the Sedins. They played together internationally (can't remember which tourney) and looked great together. He also was coming off a 63 pt season, recovering from 47 the year before and and injury (IIRC) plagued 37 before that. It wasn't a mistake to sign Loui explicitly (except in hindsight), the mistake was signing him 6x6 while Sedins had a couple of years left, who were both declining and historically, and historically have had a lot of trouble finding a really successful line mate (Eriksson is still not a Burrows and they've tried the pure skill lines before without as much success). The mistake was also not just rebuilding and 'retooling' incompetently.

Signing Marky or Eriksson is still a gamble, as is any signing. The best you can do is mitigate risk, make calculated plays based off the strength of your roster now and going forward. Demko still looks to be an excellent future investment, in which your hands would be tied if you resigned Marky, who wanted that NMC. What value are you going to get for Demko when GM's know you and they might lose him to Seattle?

It's similar to anyone who judges Gillis poorly on the Luongo deal - it's BS that the NHL changed *and retroactively* applied the rule. Everyone was signing the deal's praises at the time.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

My problem isn't with letting Markstrom and Tanev go, but that the plan constantly changes by the year. 2019-20 they want to start building a winning team. Okay. Bring in Miller, Myers and Toffoli and pay a lot of futures to do so. They make the playoffs and have some success. But 2020-21 their years of bad contracts caught up to them they lose Markstrom, Toffoli, Tanev, Stecher and Leivo. Now the plan is to wait out the bad contracts. We needed to sign the contract last year to improve the D, and the long-term implications don't matter because we need to improve in the short-term. But now a year later we need to let important pieces go because we shouldn't be handing out retirement contracts.

It's like we never stopped the retool on the fly. We're in a win now mode when Benning has any cap-space, but when his bad contracts catch up we're forced to with youth whether they are ready or not.

 

[MS]

Do you have a source on this? Reports I've come across suggest Gretzky was looking into neighbourhoods, schools, etc - which seems pretty serious, as far as considering any venue. Further, there's precedence with Bure. Of course, to be fair, a large portion of the blame should also be laid at the feet of McCaw, and by no means does my conjecture/opinion mean that had they not pulled the offer, Gretzky would have signed; but, when you're at that stage of your career, one of the most important things is a respectful relationship between parties, of which it was clearly not being established with mutual trust. "Double dealing" is meaningless - he's a free agent and able to deal with whomever he wants on his terms.

Of course, I'd rather have Pat Quinn than Benning... but Gillis still leads the pack, even if he really needed to draft better.

Someone in the media confirmed this a couple years ago - I can't remember the source.

Gretzky wanted to go to NYR - and really, does it make any sense at all that he'd be choosing a bad small market Vancouver team over going to the big stage in New York with his actress wife to reunite with Messier on a team that was 5th in the NHL the previous year? - but the Rangers were at a rare point where they were cutting costs and they were really dragging their feet on a deal. You'll notice he didn't sign until July 21, very late for the NHL free agent frenzy for an elite player. So we were in the mix as the 2nd choice, and yeah he probably scouted schools here as there looked to be a decent chance that would come through given that NYR didn't really seem committed.

Anyhow, after a protracted negotiation where they already had an inkling that Gretzky wasn't dealing in good faith, they had a big meeting/negotiation in Seattle where it seemed like we had met all of the Gretzky camp demands and a deal was imminent. But then Gretzky said he 'wanted to sleep on it' and we agreed. However, shortly after that we were tipped off that actually the Gretzky camp had a meeting booked with the Rangers for the next morning and it was quite obvious that they were just using the Vancouver offer to leverage a better deal from the Rangers. That's when an irate George McPhee called Gretzky in the middle of the night and basically said that either he signs the Vancouver deal or it was off the table and we wouldn't be used.

Dumb move not because it cost us Gretzky, but because it gave the media-savvy Gretzky an out to not look like the bad guy and say 'oh, I didn't sign because of the phone call' when he was never going to sign anyway. Their camp was close to the agent-friendly Tony Gallagher who was delighted to have an opportunity to smear his arch-enemy Quinn with the 'losing Gretzky' story and that narrative essentially became fact as a result.

The whole 'midnight phone call' thing makes zero sense unless the team totally knew something fishy was up.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Isn’t it wiser and better asset management to resign the 30 year old all star goalie and trade the 25 year old who has great value?

Thats going to be the million dollar question isnt it..?...If we didnt have Demko, it would have been a no brainer (sign here Marky)...If Marky starts failing later in his career, and we've already traded a guy that we've been grooming to be the #1 for years..we're f***ed.

I know that there's a lot of 'if's in there , but I don't think that there is currently a right or wrong answer...

 

[M2Beezy]

Thats going to be the million dollar question isnt it..?...If we didnt have Demko, it would have been a no brainer (sign here Marky)...If Marky starts failing later in his career, and we've already traded a guy that we've been grooming to be the #1 for years..we're f***ed.

I know that there's a lot of 'if's in there , but I don't think that there is currently a right or wrong answer...

Or keep both since we went for Holtby anyways. Of course thats not possible cause of contracts

 

[PM]

We gifted a vezina caliber goalie that we developed over many years to our biggest rival. It makes me want to puke. Imagine how players like Pettersson feel who probably like Markstrom even more than we do. And same with Hughes and Tanev who was basically his momma bear.

I don’t blame Pettersson or Hughes for being completely demoralized right now. I’ve worked for terrible bosses. It sucks. It makes it hard to get up every morning and get to work when your boss is an idiot and that’s what our GM is. The only guys not demoralized are probably the garbage players that Benning overpaid and don’t contribute anything. And now we’re at the bottom of the division in a shortened season and every game we lose makes it much harder to catch up than any other year.

I don’t even care about the draft. Just get us some god damn decent management for f*** sake. If we need to lose every game for the rest of the year for this to happen then so be it.