Post-Game Talk: GM 2: Flames def. Canucks - 3-0

[vanuck]

A few observations from this game:

• First off, I never thought they'd actually scratch Eriksson. It doesn't absolve his horrible contract but that's a small positive. One step closer to him being off this roster for good right??

• Myers seems to get caught pinching a fair bit and certainly more than you'd like even when there's no forward back to cover. Might be something to look out for.

• The trio of Pearson-Horvat-Miller was our best line once again and absolutely dominated possession to the tune of 70% in shot attempts. They look like they can go up against most any kind of opponent while being buried in the defensive zone (tonight they were at just over 22% OZ starts as a line). It's becoming all the more important that the Canucks establish a 3rd offensive line now instead. Are they slowly catching onto this?

• OTOH, Beagle (22% SAT for) and Schaller (31% SAT for) got destroyed territorially tonight despite actually starting none of their shifts in their own end which is straight up sad. Those 2 just could not get the puck into the right end of the ice.

• Schaller in particular just can't do much of anything with the puck - he's so limited in his ability. What a waste of space...

• It was kinda funny how Sutter got bumped back up to 3RW with Leivo and Gaudette in the 2nd period when I thought Virtanen looked better and a little more engaged. IMO his demotion to line 4 wasn't really warranted.

• Hughes is just so smooth with the puck - it's been a while since we've seen this sort of offensive acumen from a blueliner in a Canuck uniform. I do like that he's so willing to shoot the puck when there's an opportunity. Looking for him to replace Edler on PP1 at some point this season - hopefully sooner rather than later.

• What is with Green's obsession with putting Leivo on the top PP unit? Why not have Gaudette on that 5-on-3 early in the 3rd - he was buzzing in what little ice time he got this game and surely should have been a better option if they wanted another righty.

• As I write this, the one time I've seen Leivo lose a puck battle was on the power play. Go figure. Just like last season, he's still being overplayed. For someone who's ideally a 3rd liner (or 4th on a contender) he got over 17 mins tonight...

• I'd stack PP1 with Horvat and Petterson together with Boeser and Hughes and forget about trying to spread out the talent on 2 different units. Right now they need to get at least one going first. The lack of right shots in the top 6 also hurts them a little in this regard.

• Gaudette seems to be doing a better job of staying in or around the play which has carried over from preseason. I was glad to see them give him some reps on PP2 at least. Baby steps...

• That being said, I did notice Green trying to throw him out there more in the 3rd period, even in his own end for a faceoff which contrasts sharply with last year where he basically wouldn't see the ice in the 3rd. Is this a sign that Green trusts him more now? Worth keeping an eye on.

• Not sure what's up with Stecher's ice time but guy really should be playing more than 10 mins a game. Over the last 3 years, among all Canucks D-men who've played on the PK he's 2nd to only Hutton in SA/60, 1st in GA/60 and 1st in xGA/60. Yes, even ahead of Edler and Tanev... plus he's better than Benn and Myers in all 3 categories too. The PK minutes they gave to Myers should have gone to him instead.

• Lucic was invisible.

• That hit by Tkachuk on Horvat would never have happened if we had drafted the right guy in 2016.

 

[Lupuls Grit]

Jesus this cant be real...

I'd have to go back and check but at least a couple of those occasions were following icing calls.

 

[1440]

Where did you get these numbers? They got murdered at ES:

Vancouver Canucks at Calgary Flames Box Score — October 5, 2019 | Hockey-Reference.com

Van 45.2% Cgy 54.8 CF% 5v5
Van 48.5% Cgy 51.5 CF% ES

That matches the eye-test as well. We had maybe 2-3 total minutes of ES pushback in the third.

Wasn't able to load your site on mobile, but this site shows the inverse of your numbers. Are you sure you don't have it backwards?

Vancouver Canucks @ Calgary Flames, 2019-10-05

Corsi for of about 58% total, so 7/5
ES Corsi for of about 54%, so 6/5

 

[canuckking1]

Hey, remember that fairy tale everyone was only gonna get better? Nobody even figured in a guy like Tanev in that kind of equation.

The team really just paid above their paygrade last year. Even if we did get better it'd have just evened out.

 

[tantalum]

A few random observations for a Canucks team who've won twice in their last 15 road games.

Can anyone explain to me what Josh Leivo is doing on the first unit pp? How can a guy who's been depth winger his entire career suddenly be a first unit pp guy?

No one can explain it. I also can’t really explain what he does that most good bottom 6 players can’t do. At least he’s not making a bunch of coin. I’m not a fan but the least of the issue in the bottom 6.

The experiment with Ferland on the first line needs to be over. Just not enough skill. Pettterson was actually more dangerous when Goldy was on his line. But think the last 20 games in Petterson's season a year ago is closer to what we can expect this year. The league has figured him out.

It never should have begun. The underlying numbers are clear...Ferland is a drag on talented line mates. He is miscast on higher end scoring lines. It’s why Calgary and Carolina traded or were ok to move on without him. He needs to be in the bottom six providing some energy.

I hope Chris Tanev can stay healthy until the trade deadline.....two major defensive zone mistakes in the last two games. He needs to move on, hopefully to help recover some of the draft picks the Canucks have already traded away.

It does appear that his game is rapidly deteriorating or that he his trying to play a different way...I haven’t decided which. Either way it is concerning.

This blueline might be better on paper; but it looks a lot like a year ago when they just got hemmed in their own zone early in games. This team just can't win a puck battle down low and coughs up glorious scoring chances. But when you look at guys like Stecher, Tanev, Benn and even Hughes...this blueline is either too 'small' or too 'passive'.

The break out and transition was an issue but the biggest issue with the blueline (and entire defensive zone) was the inability to get the puck in the first place. None of the additions appear to have addressed this issue. They went about addressing step 2 forgetting that step 2 only happens after a successful step 1.

Finally, I know it's only two games, but really starting to wonder about Green. Do they have the guys to play the system he wants? Has this team started to tune him out?

He’s not a good coach. I think he has exactly the people he wants to play the system he thinks will be effective. Everything seems to suggests he is heavily involved with player targets and acquisitions. So not a good coach and like the rest of management poor at player evaluations.

It comes down to needing a complete housecleaning.

 

[tantalum]

Where did you get these numbers? They got murdered at ES:

Vancouver Canucks at Calgary Flames Box Score — October 5, 2019 | Hockey-Reference.com

Van 45.2% Cgy 54.8 CF% 5v5
Van 48.5% Cgy 51.5 CF% ES

That matches the eye-test as well. We had maybe 2-3 total minutes of ES pushback in the third.

Ya, you don’t even need underlying numbers for this game. A simple watch of the game will tell you that they were dominated at ES both in possession, scoring chances and high danger scoring chances. Anyone who comes away from that game thinking good effort or if they only got some bounces was watching a different game.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

I think what annoyed me the most about this game was having to stay awake for the last ten minutes of it. Markstrom looked good, Miller had a few nifty passes which I guess justifies the lottery pick we'll give up for him. The rest were forgettable.

Really can't come away with any conclusion other then it'll take ten+ years to unf*** this franchise after watching last night's game.

 

[iFan]

If we miss the playoffs this year, we keep the pick for the upcoming draft but TB gets it in 2021?

Is this correct because 2020 is absolutely stacked

I believe so, it would be absolutely stupid to not have it conditional, given our past years performance.

 

[iFan]

Canucks need to roll with a Gaudette Virtanen 3rd line, those two played very well with each other and bring grit.

 

[1440]

Ya, you don’t even need underlying numbers for this game. A simple watch of the game will tell you that they were dominated at ES both in possession, scoring chances and high danger scoring chances. Anyone who comes away from that game thinking good effort or if they only got some bounces was watching a different game.

They each created 8 high danger scoring chances, 6 each at ES. Xgoals were about 3 to 2.5 in favour of the flames. Removing the empty net shot which has an Xgoals value of about 0.9, the Canucks led the Xgoals battle by about 2.5 to 2.1

Vancouver Canucks @ Calgary Flames, 2019-10-05

 

[Bertuzzzi44]

Leivo is a solid 5-on-5 possession player.

But WTF is he on the First unit PP?? When the team already has possession you need to create, move, and open up lanes! It’s why Baertschi was effective on the PP. Not sure why Green doesn’t understand that good 5-on-5 play doesn’t necessarily translate to good PP play. Get Leivo off the damn PP and put in someone that isn’t stationary and can actually move and create!

 

[Fire Benning]

Plenty of time to turn it around but not an ideal start to the season, no goals from forwards thru 2 games, some guys that definitely need to pick it up.

Green is gonna be on the hot seat if they don't start putting some wins on the board soon.

 

[Hoghandler]

First off, Leivo is a solid 5-on-5 possession player.

With that said, WTF is he on the First unit PP?? When the team already has possession you need to create, move, and open up lanes! It’s why Baertschi was effective on the PP. Not sure why Green doesn’t understand that good 5-on-5 play doesn’t necessarily translate to good PP play. Get Leivo off the damn PP and put in someone that isn’t stationary and can actually create!

It's Newell Brown running the PP, but I agree, Leivo should be nowhere near the first unit.

I find Brown really likes to over-coach his PP. Has always been reluctant to make changes until he can run the new look through a bunch of practices first. You get the impression he believes the coaching is more important than the personnel, and that they couldn't figure things out on the fly. In actuality, they likely could be more effective letting the players decide who the 5 most skilled players are, putting those 5 talented players on the ice together and improvise with what the defense is giving them.

Enough with the over-coaching and over-thinking things. Get Hughes and Horvat out there on the first unit, let them snap it around and find holes. Newell Brown needs to realise he's just not a very important piece to this PP. Based on what I've seen from Brown in the past, this might not happen all that fast.

 

[I am toxic]

Is that one of those ink blot tests?

Looks like a chickenhawk attacking a baby turtle.

That's no baby turtle.

That's Foghorn Leghorn.

 

[DarrenX]

Really can't come away with any conclusion other then it'll take ten+ years to un**** this franchise after watching last night's game.

Ten years is an eternity in pro sports. 3/4 of our roster will be retired by then. I'd say five years.

It won't be this year though....Benning's cheerleaders are going to be mighty quiet when December rolls around and the season is already effectively over.

 

[Balls Mahoney]

Ten years is an eternity in pro sports. 3/4 of our roster will be retired by then. I'd say five years.

It won't be this year though....Benning's cheerleaders are going to be mighty quiet when December rolls around and the season is already effectively over.

Well, if this was a competent organization owned by people who's objective was a Stanley Cup win but I don't think that's the case. I project ten+ years because this organization has to burn to the ground so dramatically that the sheer amount of nepotism and corruption that has rotted every aspect of this organization has to make this team so toxic that it turns from an automatic money generator into a failing business.

I think it'll take at least another 3-5 years just for Reddit-tier morons to figure out this is a toxic organization. Then we'll have to go through the painful ripping of bandaids as the few young gems this organization has amassed all leave under bitter circumstances. Then maybe this team will finally be so toxic that our brain dead owner will finally either sell the team or remove himself from operations completely. Then maybe some one vaguely competent who can rebuild from ground zero will come in. That'll take ten+ years.

Keep in mind, these blithering boobs have already wasted five years of our NHL hockey existences.

This is literal biblical hell for a sports' fan.

 

[Melvin]

Any competent GM can turn any team around in 3 years if there are no financial constraints.

 

[RainbowDeathBunny]

Any competent GM can turn any team around in 3 years if there are no financial restraints.

That’s a big if.

 

[tantalum]

They each created 8 high danger scoring chances, 6 each at ES. Xgoals were about 3 to 2.5 in favour of the flames. Removing the empty net shot which has an Xgoals value of about 0.9, the Canucks led the Xgoals battle by about 2.5 to 2.1

Vancouver Canucks @ Calgary Flames, 2019-10-05

Your link, which the heat map posted above came from, clearly shows 5-on-5 ES in Calgarys favor from about the 4 minute mark of the game on for the game flow. The trend is generally upwards until halfway through the third when the flames pulled back to sit on the lead.

 

[Hit the post]

Any competent GM can turn any team around in 3 years if there are no financial restraints.

And a little luck.

Benning had that with EP & Hughes; to a lesser extent Boeser.

But you need more than to rely on luck.

Can't expect to hit 21 always doubling down on a natural blackjack.

 

[Hoghandler]

The biggest positive takeaway from last night is probably the fact Tanner Pearson played the most PK minutes of any winger, with close to 4:00. It's not a positive because he didn't get scored on, it's positive because that was the first penalty killing a top 6 forward has been given this season. Unless Green continues to use Pearson, or some other guys in his top 6, we're likely to get that ugly defensive bent on the bottom 2 lines. Hopefully this carries forward, as it will also give him less reason to dress Loui Eriksson.

Also good to see Hughes and Myers generate 10 shots between them. The rest of the defense could only muster 4 as a group. These 2 additions hopefully will be enough to get the Canuck blueline out of the basement in terms of production from the back-end.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Canucks had a hard time getting scoring chances in this game..Almost seemed like every point shot was being blocked by the Flames..and chances in the slot were few and far between.

View attachment 261333

this looks about right.

to speak in cliches, the flames played their own game, whereas the canucks tried to play the game of who they think they are supposed to be. that was a hard fought game by both teams but the canucks wasted a lot of energy trying too hard on every shift to do everything, and showed very little patience or presence.

the canucks have not figured out who they are. they were attempting to prove they are on the same level as the flames playing head to head, but they are not ready for that at all any more than they were ready to just run over the oilers as they tried in the first game. they have no good idea yet who works with who and, to me at least, they should be playing a conservative style until they figure that out. they've spent two games barking at the moon.

as for who the canucks are going to be, i think they are a team with two good lines worth of players and decent support from hughes, edler and myers plus decent goaltending. they also seem to have enough personnel to potentially come up with a decent third line but i am not seeing it yet. the fourth line looks like it will be table scraps. i am not comfortable with how the icetime and combinations have been scripted so far. they seem to be adhering to a plan a little too rigidly for a team with their history and so many offseason changes. the plan gives them only one good line, horvat's. the pettersson line is not working so far. i would try and swap boeser and miller myself, but pearson and ferlund might work too.

i am looking forward to how this team looks playing a more conservative game and with the top 8 being shuffled until they figure out who fits. i am skeptical about the current approach. i am also waiting patiently for signs of a system to get the puck out of our zone under pressure other than chipping it up the boards or icing it.

hughes - thriving. his shot has come a long way but is still at best a distraction, not a weapon.

ferland - ok but seems to be in a world of his own. not clear to me that he is mentally a member of the team

virtanen - had a better game for him, but let up a few times on contact. wondering if shoulder is hurt.

myers - trying really hard to be awesome and showing signs of it. might be sbisa in his final form where his play finally outweighs his pizzas.

gaudette -- see myers but less damaging mistakes.

pettersson and boeser -- working hard but struggling 5 on 5. not being patient or opportunistic enough.

edler - unflappable

tanev -- cannot keep up with hughes. was the weak link several times during sustained canuck ozone pressure. needs to swap with myers.

horvat line - awesome

sutter -- threw some hits but still not looking himself and not quick enough.

beagle - keeping up but needs younger faster wingers to make a difference.

schaller -- significantly less effective than in preseason. at times cannot keep up. needs to sit down.

stecher - seems to be deep in dog house. looking smaller than he is and tentative, but still battling. how can any coach not love this guy?

benn -- ok

marky -ok

 

[krutovsdonut]

i forgot leivo. he's a mystery. must look really good in practice.

 

[Hoghandler]

Can't help but wonder if they look to get Tanev back alongside Edler to get him on track. Always plays his best with Edler, while you could utilise Myers and Hughes in high leverage offensive sitiations.

Stecher's play and lack of icetime is surprising and disappointing. Was thinking Stecher was poised for a big year, but he's become an afterthought through 2 games. Baumgartner really isn't sold on Troy, and to be fair, Stecher's puck movement has been very poor.

 

[4Twenty]

Can't help but wonder if they look to get Tanev back alongside Edler to get him on track. Always plays his best with Edler, while you could utilise Myers and Hughes in high leverage offensive sitiations.

Stecher's play and lack of icetime is surprising and disappointing. Was thinking Stecher was poised for a big year, but he's become an afterthought through 2 games. Baumgartner really isn't sold on Troy, and to be fair, Stecher's puck movement has been very poor.

It makes too much sense to pair Hughes and Myers an tie them to the Pettersson line.

Problem with the Pettersson line is the opposition is forcing the play to go through Ferland, who isn’t good enough with the puck to make plays. Wouldn’t mind seeing Miller move up that spot. If this teams going anywhere that #1 line has to dominate. This is the problem with shoe horning a 3rd line mucker onto your top line...

What’s your opinion on Benn? I always thought Stecher was overrated by this fan base but to go from the minutes he ended last season with to what he’s getting now is quite shocking. Benn doesn’t look very good at all imo. All this puck moving ability he was said to have has been non existent through preseason and now the regular season. Comparing how he’s looked to how Hutton looked for LA is stark.

It’s only going to be a matter of time before Edler breaks down. I thought the additions this summer on the blueline was supposed to make it deeper? So they didn’t need to roll Edler out for 25 mins/gm.


Green better figure it out quick. I don’t think he’ll be an NHL head coach long if he doesn’t figure it out.