OT: General UFC/MMA/Boxing discussion X

[LyricalLyricist]

1) Because its failing miserably.
2) Because there is a complete lack of understanding of what PEDs are.
3) Because I'm way more interested in money being pumped into development of safe drugs vs a completely failing strategy.

They tried controlling it, it hasn't worked...so let's try an alternative.

So the NHL has tried reducing illegal hits and yet suspensions continue to occur.

Do you:

A) Keep the rules and keep suspending people.
B) Drop it, lets try an alternative and promote head shots.

Decisions, decisions.

That being said...why would UFC put money into drugs? What? This is something completely different. Let drug makers worry about that, it's not UFCs responsibility to promote PEDs.

I think you look at PEDs from a fitness or bodybuilding perspective, not a fighting one.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Do I believe Overeem getting caught means Brock stopping? Nope.

It means overeem is stopping. Brock barely fights. Overeem is an active fighter. Brock got away with it because he didn't test before his last fight from loophole. Even if, guy fights once a decade now. All they gotta do is not wait to test him and even if man, 1 fight a decade vs a guy like overeem fighting a lot more.

Look at Jones...on it or not...no difference, does that mean he's still using?

Who cares? What kind of argument is this? So Jones is good with or without PEDs being detected. Okay...

So why test I guess? because Jon Jones is good either! Solid.

I believe Jones has been clean as of late, he was double tested. He only cheats when he faces someone who is an actual threat.

Bottom line is testing doesnt work. Sure, you might catch one guy, all that does is make the next one in line, who's likely also using, the next champ.

If they went back to test the Sean Sherks, Liddells, Coututes, Arlovskis, Hughes, Ortizs...Im sure they were all on some stuff.

And every guy will have their legacy tarnished and their income ruined. TJ was making a name for himself and then did this. What do you think this does? He's losing millions now.

Something something next guy. Sure. Maybe the next guy is cheating but all of these guys will learn they're going to lose millions, ruin their legacy and external interests(sponsorships), etc... from doing it.

Does it stop what already happened? Nope. What it does do is start to create a precedent and a warning.

One of the main issues is not even the testing but the culture around it. Guys will not snitch which is a form of 'honor' but they allow other guys to take the brunt of the damage.

Cody wasn't against TJ's PEDs until he fought him, maybe if he wasn't such a bitch about it Cody would still have his title.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I dont think it's working at all. Do some get caught and stop? Ya. But that's pretty irrelevant if the guys behind are pretty much all taking it.

Lots of them popping, every month there is more and some look like they stopped using out of fear of being caught. IMO look at Johnny Hendricks, or even Chris Weidman, completely different, ones career is over and the other looks like he's feelings the effects post USADA, both speculative of course. There are many, many, many others too who have seemed to have been impacted without ever having failed a test, this means it is working.

Go back to Armstrong getting caught. Great man, except all the guys trailing were also on it.

Lots of assumptions here in this quote again, but who cares, we're in a different time in a completely different sport. Just because Armstrong claimed his innocence and then was eventually caught doesn't mean every athlete in every sport going forward is cheating. To me this is a pretty weird outlook tbh. Sure there are a bunch of them that are.

Do I believe Overeem getting caught means Brock stopping? Nope.

I'm not sure what this is suppose to mean or suggest, yes, some will cheat no matter what, this is true in every walk of life and next time Brock pops hopefully he's banned for good.

Look at Jones...on it or not...no difference, does that mean he's still using?

Not sure what this is meaning either, but unless you believe in this newly made up science where JJ is allowed to pulse picograms forever and continue to fight then yes he's likely on something, but I also think its likely he'll be caught again in due time Nd his career will rightfully be tarnished forever. This guy is likely the lb for lb greatest of all-time and his actions, iE testing positive for 3 differences substance takes him completely out of the running for me.
In fact, I have a guy he beat twice ahead of him now. If JJ was so good he would have fought those fights clean. USADA failed in the JJ case IMO, but it doesn't mean they aren't winning some battles.

Bottom line is testing doesnt work. Sure, you might catch one guy, all that does is make the next one in line, who's likely also using, the next champ.

In your opinion, the next guy is on something, not necessarily the case. Testing is working, people are popping left, right and center. Obviously they have a few loops holes etc to exploit to avoid the punishment they deserve.

If they went back to test the Sean Sherks, Liddells, Coututes, Arlovskis, Hughes, Ortizs...Im sure they were all on some stuff.

Some would, some wouldn't, I'd be kind of surprised if chuck popped, but then again if was a different set of rules then.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

So the NHL has tried reducing illegal hits and yet suspensions continue to occur.

Do you:

A) Keep the rules and keep suspending people.
B) Drop it, lets try an alternative and promote head shots.

Decisions, decisions.

That being said...why would UFC put money into drugs? What? This is something completely different. Let drug makers worry about that, it's not UFCs responsibility to promote PEDs.

I think you look at PEDs from a fitness or bodybuilding perspective, not a fighting one.

I think krisse has a somewhat reasonable gripe with how PEDs are demonized and frowned upon by people with little understanding and I full heartedly agree with him on that point. A lot of these drugs are the closest thing to a miracle drug as we will ever find, but I find he brings that view into the UFC testing debate, am I wrong @krisse?

I dont see how that relates to cheating in sports, I have no problem with an aids patient or cancer patient using drugs to help them deal with wasting syndrome or whatever to help improve their way of life. I have no problem with someone at the gym making a personal choice to use something to improve his/her strength and performance or to assist with recovery if that is their choice. If some want to use it as an anti aging tool, fine, but when u bring it into competition to get an advantage you are crossing Moral line with me. Those others are personal and often medical decisions where u make a choice that's best for you but there is no victim. In sports you are forcing the hands of many otherwise clean athletes. It needs to stop, giving up and making it a free for all is worse than we are now. That us first sure

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I think krisse has a somewhat reasonable gripe with how PEDs are demonized and frowned upon by people with little understanding and I full heartedly agree with him on that point. A lot of these drugs are the closest thing to a miracle drug as we will ever find, but I find he brings that view into the UFC testing debate, am I wrong @krisse?

I dont see how that relates to cheating in sports, I have no problem with an aids patient or cancer patient using drugs to help them deal with wasting syndrome or whatever to help improve their way of life. I have no problem with someone at the gym making a personal choice to use something to improve his/her strength and performance or to assist with recovery if that is their choice. If some want to use it as an anti aging tool, fine, but when u bring it into competition to get an advantage you are crossing Moral line with me. Those others are personal and often medical decisions where u make a choice that's best for you but there is no victim. In sports you are forcing the hands of many otherwise clean athletes. It needs to stop, giving up and making it a free for all is worse than we are now. That us first sure

Agreed.

I think it even goes beyond the advantage part.

We've seen fights where two guys gas out from the intensity of the fight and slow down in the 3rd, 4th or 5th rounds.

If a PED can give you more endurance, more strength, better recovery, etc..you'll be able to handle more and dish out more during the fight. Everyone will cheer, people will say its a great fight, yada yada.

Problem is, these aren't love taps. A few years down the line UFC will be sued the same way NHL and NFL were for CTE and they'll be blasted for allowing artificially superior athletes in the ring.

UFC is protecting more than the user. They're protecting the opponents and they're covering their ass too.

The UFC will never ever pull out from testing. It's a waste of time to discuss any alternative where they do because they'd rather spend money on the legitimacy of the sport than lawsuits.

 

[Kriss E]

I think krisse has a somewhat reasonable gripe with how PEDs are demonized and frowned upon by people with little understanding and I full heartedly agree with him on that point. A lot of these drugs are the closest thing to a miracle drug as we will ever find, but I find he brings that view into the UFC testing debate, am I wrong @krisse?

Ya pretty much. I just get frustrated a bit on it because I know there is such a poor understanding of these drugs and what they do. Everytime I hear ''cheat'' when someone gets caught, it shows just how little some people grasp things. The amount of work that is required to become an elite athlete really has little to do with PEDs. You're not going to have an easier road ahead if you use PEDs, I'd argue the opposite actually. Your road will be even harder because you're going to push yourself even more.
Can go back to cycling and Armstrong, doctors agree that it's actually safer to do the Tour de France on PEDs.

I dont see how that relates to cheating in sports, I have no problem with an aids patient or cancer patient using drugs to help them deal with wasting syndrome or whatever to help improve their way of life. I have no problem with someone at the gym making a personal choice to use something to improve his/her strength and performance or to assist with recovery if that is their choice. If some want to use it as an anti aging tool, fine, but when u bring it into competition to get an advantage you are crossing Moral line with me. Those others are personal and often medical decisions where u make a choice that's best for you but there is no victim. In sports you are forcing the hands of many otherwise clean athletes. It needs to stop, giving up and making it a free for all is worse than we are now. That us first sure

I only see the argument for fighting being a different beast because that sport is specifically about physically hurting your opponent. It's not like sprinting where you really aren't hurting anybody. Fighting though, doing something illegal that's then going to help you hurt someone else more....okay, I get that argument.

But again, my point of view comes from believing 99% of them are using something...so while that argument is totally legit, it loses its validity if you believe all those guys are on it anyways.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Ya pretty much. I just get frustrated a bit on it because I know there is such a poor understanding of these drugs and what they do. Everytime I hear ''cheat'' when someone gets caught, it shows just how little some people grasp things. The amount of work that is required to become an elite athlete really has little to do with PEDs. You're not going to have an easier road ahead if you use PEDs, I'd argue the opposite actually. Your road will be even harder because you're going to push yourself even more.
Can go back to cycling and Armstrong, doctors agree that it's actually safer to do the Tour de France on PEDs.

Well PED's alone are not going to make an athlete, or make Jon Jones an elite fighter, but I don't think many argue that to be honest. Most acknowledge Jones would likely be the best with or without them. Some have a problem with him using, some say let him since everyone else is. I actually think the number of clean athletes might be a tad higher than most think.

I'm not anti-ped in all circumstances, for instance, baseball used the Sosa/McGwire/Bonds era to re-establish itself as a league, baseball was in trouble for a short time. They profited off the backs of these 3 guys and now they refuse to let them in the hall. I think it's a travesty tbh. These guys weren't even violating any rules at the time and now they are ostracized for being cheaters when the league was freaking marketing these guys, unreal and completely unfair. Not to mention, like you said, PEDs didn't make these guys good ball players, but maybe added a bit of pop to their bats, but I could juice all day and never hit 95 mph heater out of the park.

I only see the argument for fighting being a different beast because that sport is specifically about physically hurting your opponent. It's not like sprinting where you really aren't hurting anybody. Fighting though, doing something illegal that's then going to help you hurt someone else more....okay, I get that argument.

But again, my point of view comes from believing 99% of them are using something...so while that argument is totally legit, it loses its validity if you believe all those guys are on it anyways.

That's one angle I agree with, people are risking their life in combat sports, but even sprinting, I still see it as unfair advantage to those who use, because basically you are taking the decision away from those who would rather be clean. Their choice is either join in on the action or lose, I don't think that is fair. These guys are all elite at what they do, and I find the peds completely unbalances things, it all comes down to who has the best doctors with the most knowledge of how to get the edge, and less about pure skill and sport. I'm not a fan, I'd rather watch 8 sprinters come in at 10 seconds if we know with absolute certainty they are clean, vs the half second shaved off knowing they are dirty. I remember when Ben Johnson lost his gold medal, they took it and gave it one of the biggest users in the business in Lewis, so definitely see your side of it. I think they retroactively tested those 8 sprinters from the 88 games and 7 tested positive, however, the was 30 years ago and I don't think the answer is to just accept it. I also think there are more eyes on these athletes now, there is no escaping the scrutiny, many will risk everything to get the edge, but I believe many would prefer to be clean.

 

[Mike Mike Caron]

There are ways for sure but I think USADA has limits on how many times you can appear gone without prior notice.

Either way, like I said it was to point out Cody's losses will not be overturned.

In that case they give notice.

 

[BeastMode420]

Ban TJ for 2 years. Jon Jones still fighting lol

Anyways PEDS are not bad unless you take them before 30s approximately ... They say you lose your hair on Peds, man it's only genetic.

I know powerlifters who are natural and eat perfectly and still have no hair on the top only from the sides and go to the gym with a hat or a beanie on because they are insecure about it

And the PEDS era in baseball was the most exciting era ever. Sports is all about politics now.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Man, Anders is one hard humbre. Probably too much for his own good.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

I'm hyped for that fight !

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Gastelum is so freaking small for that division, thank god for them heavy hands.

 

[CristianoRonaldo]

Gastelum is so freaking small for that division, thank god for them heavy hands.

He's pretty fast !

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Man, no room for mistakes in that fight. Both guys with knock downs now.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

I have it 2-2 now ! It's gonna be a classic who wants it more round 5 !

 

[Canadiens Ghost]

My Gawd what a fight!

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Fight of the year candidate right there.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Soooo many interim belts....

 

[Redux91]

What a fight Adesenya Gastelum, just wow

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Holloway has a heck of a chin, as usual. He can't take a lot more of this though.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Man, I don't know if Holloway is gonna be able to break Poirier physically like he always does to people.

 

[MD thaivuN]

Max Holloway, probably has the greatest chin of all time.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

One of the rare times where Holloway couldn't break an oponent with his motor. Big props to Poirier for that alone.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Poirier didn’t have enough time to fill into 155 IMO. Poirier was bigger and could handle the volume. I had it closer than it was scored though.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Holloway worries me a bit tbh. He's already starting to have problems with his elocution and he's not even 30 yet. All those wars are bound to take a pretty big toll on the guy at some point. I hope he's not all broken down by the time he's in his forties.