OT: General UFC/MMA/Boxing discussion VIII

[Deebs]

Conor always gasses out too so time really is key. If he wins it'll have to be fairly quick, any type of long fight is 100% to Khabib's advantage.

For sure. If Mac doesn't win it in 3, Khabib should be able to finish him

 

[MD thaivuN]

LHW is garbage. trying to argue which LHW record is better is pointless.

 

[pistolpete11]

Re: DC/Jones

I don't think DC is the GOAT, but he's in the conversation. HW Grand Prix champ, UFC LHW champ, and UFC HW champ. That's amazing. He will always have the Jones loss(es) hanging over him unless he somehow fights him again and gets the win, but that is his only loss in MMA and it's in question given Jones' USADA violations. The other point I think gets overlooked is that he didn't start fighting in MMA until he was 30. Yeah, yeah, who knows what would have happened if he started earlier, but he's put together this amazing resume past most guy's physical prime. And as great as Jones is, it's no guarantee he doesn't come back and take a couple ugly losses (see Fedor).

Jones, Fedor, GSP, Anderson, Mighty Mouse, Aldo...you could make a case for a number of guys. DC's in that conversation. He has his knocks against him, but so do all of those guys.

For sure. If Mac doesn't win it in 3, Khabib should be able to finish him

If Khabib was more of a finisher, I'd agree. But we saw in the second Diaz fight that Conor can get a second wind. I could see a scenario where Conor tunes Khabib up for the first 2 rounds, Khabib drags Conor down and beats him up for 2 rounds, and then Conor musters up enough to win the 5th round in a decision. Granted Nate isn't going to wear a guy down as much as Khabib, but still, it could happen.

That's what makes this fight so great. Nobody really knows how it will go down.

 

[Kriss E]

Ya but provide evidence.

Sonnen and Belfort were essentially middleweights.
Then you got Rua, Bader, Jackson as bigger names which is fine.
Gustafsson is shared between Cormier and Jones so it's irrelevant.

Cormier has fought bigger guys with more reach his entire career over two divisions.
Anthony Johnson(twice), Stipe were very very good competition as well.
Silva and Henderson are big names but weren't in ideal circumstances(out of prime or moving up a division not unlike some guys Jones faced)
Volkan, Bigfoot Silva and others are that mid-tier not unlike Jackson or even Bader given Volkan was crushing the division.

I mean, if you want to say Jones had better competition then it's an opinion but to say it's not even close...I mean, you count Jackson who was 32-8 when they fought but Volkan is nothing when he's KOing everybody and was 15-1 going in? Stipe doesn't count? Anthony Johnson KOed Gustafsson, Bader and Teixera in first round between his two fights with Cormier. Jones and Cormier had brawls with Gus so he's no slouch and this guy KOed him.

These are legitimate talents and competition for both guys. I don't see how you can say one is by far better. Where's the evidence? Because Jones faced a few popular middleweights? Because you want to ignore Stipe, Johnson, Volkan and pretend some lesser talents Jones faced surpass that?

It's comparable. You can nitpick if you like but I'm not saying one is better than the other. I just don't understand the logic one is in some completely different level. It's not.

I think Stipe is the only legit guy, every one else was over the hill. Volkan...ya...he had a great record, it kinda proves just how weak the division was. Same goes for the HW, and I have been mentioning this for quite some time about that division, this isn't something new because Cormier won.

Whether it's close or not, I don't really care, but to me it's clear Jones faced tougher opponents.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I'm not going to go back and forth on this. I already gave my opinion, Cormier's list is complete meh to me, you repeating it is not going to change my mind. Already know who the names are. You keep going back to size. Size isn't everything, Jones fought much tougher guys in their prime. Cormier has beaten mostly has-beens.

You're not really going back and forth. You're just ignoring guys like Anthony Johnson, Stipe, etc... and considering other guys better.

I laid it out, seems pretty similar to me. If you disagree that's fine.

LHW is garbage. trying to argue which LHW record is better is pointless.

Not which is better. Just to notion Jones had such a dramatically tougher competition seems odd to me.

Re: DC/Jones

I don't think DC is the GOAT, but he's in the conversation. HW Grand Prix champ, UFC LHW champ, and UFC HW champ. That's amazing. He will always have the Jones loss(es) hanging over him unless he somehow fights him again and gets the win, but that is his only loss in MMA and it's in question given Jones' USADA violations. The other point I think gets overlooked is that he didn't start fighting in MMA until he was 30. Yeah, yeah, who knows what would have happened if he started earlier, but he's put together this amazing resume past most guy's physical prime. And as great as Jones is, it's no guarantee he doesn't come back and take a couple ugly losses (see Fedor).

Jones, Fedor, GSP, Anderson, Mighty Mouse, Aldo...you could make a case for a number of guys. DC's in that conversation. He has his knocks against him, but so do all of those guys.

I gotta agree with this. Honestly it's as you pointed out that he's a two division champ at 39. He started late and kept that elite level late. That's very impressive. Even the best start to go down and the fact he's kicking ass at that age is impressive.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I think Stipe is the only legit guy, every one else was over the hill. Volkan...ya...he had a great record, it kinda proves just how weak the division was. Same goes for the HW, and I have been mentioning this for quite some time about that division, this isn't something new because Cormier won.

Whether it's close or not, I don't really care, but to me it's clear Jones faced tougher opponents.

Guys like Jackson were 32-8 before JJ and 37-13 since...the 5 wins being in bellator...not UFC. Let me guess...he wasn't over the hill though?

Jackson lost to Teixeira and Teixeira lost to Johnson in 13 seconds.

Yet...Jackson and Teixeira are on Jones' list so they're tough. Someone like Anthony Johnson who DC faced and finished twice isn't on JJ's list so I guess they don't count?

Makes no sense...a guy like Johnson knocked out everybody, including gustafsson!

In the last 5 years Jones fought the following:

Cormier(2)
OSP
Teixeira
Gustafsson

Cormier can't fight himself.
Volkan beat OSP...just like Jones. DC beat Volkan.
Teix...see above with Anthony Johnson
They both faced Gus

I mean...if OSP counts as competition but the guy who beats OSP counts as worse competition then...what the f***? It's gotta make some sense. If Volkan isn't decent competition then neither is OSP.

 

[Kriss E]

I gotta agree with this. Honestly it's as you pointed out that he's a two division champ at 39. He started late and kept that elite level late. That's very impressive. Even the best start to go down and the fact he's kicking ass at that age is impressive.

I don't think you get extra point because your 39. I mean, ffs, he's 39 not 65.
How you do at that age has a lot to do with wear and tear as well as your healthy habits. Now if I'm to take what you said before, where he eats junk food often, well then his success at this later age is likely due to luck, genetics and weak competition. That, and he's possibly also using.

But again, 39 isn't some old age where you should be physically significantly weaker.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

I don't think you get extra point because your 39. I mean, ffs, he's 39 not 65.
How you do at that age has a lot to do with wear and tear as well as your healthy habits. Now if I'm to take what you said before, where he eats junk food often, well then his success at this later age is likely due to luck, genetics and weak competition. That, and he's possibly also using.

But again, 39 isn't some old age where you should be physically significantly weaker.

No, but why do hockey players not play till 50 then? It's not that you're some piece of garbage at 40. It's more that it's a lot of damage to the body(injuries, weight cut, etc...) and younger guys generally have more power.

I forget who it was but even some older NHL player(might have been Jagr) mentioned how working out early on and now changed a lot. That he took longer to catch up if he took time off, that he felt sore more, etc... So he had to be smarter because younger guys have the natural advantage physically.

I'm sure you can attest to this being in that field. It's not about being unable to do something at a later age, it's about the difficulty of being at a high level at that age. It's possible but it's not as easy as it used to be.

 

[Kriss E]

Guys like Jackson were 32-8 before JJ and 37-13 since...the 5 wins being in bellator...not UFC. Let me guess...he wasn't over the hill though?

Jackson lost to Teixeira and Teixeira lost to Johnson in 13 seconds.

Yet...Jackson and Teixeira are on Jones' list so they're tough. Someone like Anthony Johnson who DC faced and finished twice isn't on JJ's list so I guess they don't count?

Makes no sense...a guy like Johnson knocked out everybody, including gustafsson!

In the last 5 years Jones fought the following:

Cormier(2)
OSP
Teixeira
Gustafsson

Cormier can't fight himself.
Volkan beat OSP...just like Jones. DC beat Volkan.
Teix...see above with Anthony Johnson
They both faced Gus

I mean...if OSP counts as competition but the guy who beats OSP counts as worse competition then...what the ****? It's gotta make some sense. If Volkan isn't decent competition then neither is OSP.

Honestly I don't care much about who faced the tougher opponents. To me, as I recall, the division was closer back when Jones was starting. He came in and displayed a very different and dominant level of fighting. I think they were a bunch of has-beens or well on their way down, but hey, if you want to say it was similar for Jones, go ahead.
To that equal footing, add Jones beating Cormier twice. To me there is no debate, Jones is the better fighter, so forget Cormier as the GOAT.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Honestly I don't care much about who faced the tougher opponents. To me, as I recall, the division was closer back when Jones was starting. He came in and displayed a very different and dominant level of fighting. I think they were a bunch of has-beens or well on their way down, but hey, if you want to say it was similar for Jones, go ahead.
To that equal footing, add Jones beating Cormier twice. To me there is no debate, Jones is the better fighter, so forget Cormier as the GOAT.

Yeah and many believe Hendricks beat GSP. So what?

When USADA came in Hendricks showed who he really was all the way to an early retirement.

 

[THE HOFF]

I don't think you get extra point because your 39. I mean, ffs, he's 39 not 65.
How you do at that age has a lot to do with wear and tear as well as your healthy habits. Now if I'm to take what you said before, where he eats junk food often, well then his success at this later age is likely due to luck, genetics and weak competition. That, and he's possibly also using.

But again, 39 isn't some old age where you should be physically significantly weaker.

I don't think you get extra points for ignorant reasoning either. john jones had a no contest against cormier, cormier beat A. Johnson 2 times (he was the scariest guy by FAR) , then by your logic Jones >>>>>>johnson .
but jones never fought anthony johnson, and saying Anthony Johnson was over the hill is so hypocritical and ignorant.

saying stipe is the only fighter worth mentioning on cormier's fight list is like saying cormier is the only one worth mentioning on Jones' list.

Cormier had the tougher competition in the last 3 years, its not open for debate. its facts. Facts you're not even ready to accept yet.

 

[THE HOFF]

Honestly I don't care much about who faced the tougher opponents. To me, as I recall, the division was closer back when Jones was starting. He came in and displayed a very different and dominant level of fighting. I think they were a bunch of has-beens or well on their way down, but hey, if you want to say it was similar for Jones, go ahead.
To that equal footing, add Jones beating Cormier twice. To me there is no debate, Jones is the better fighter, so forget Cormier as the GOAT.

oh I see it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[Kriss E]

No, but why do hockey players not play till 50 then? It's not that you're some piece of garbage at 40. It's more that it's a lot of damage to the body(injuries, weight cut, etc...) and younger guys generally have more power.

I forget who it was but even some older NHL player(might have been Jagr) mentioned how working out early on and now changed a lot. That he took longer to catch up if he took time off, that he felt sore more, etc... So he had to be smarter because younger guys have the natural advantage physically.

I'm sure you can attest to this being in that field. It's not about being unable to do something at a later age, it's about the difficulty of being at a high level at that age. It's possible but it's not as easy as it used to be.

Well, that's because the season of a hockey player spans over 6 or 7 months. Include the team training camps/exhibition games, and you have the players being active from September to possibly June. To that, add all the traveling involved.
The training camp in fighting is the equivalent of the off-season training of team sports, and then you jump right into Game 7 of the Stanley Cup. Cormier fights maybe twice per year? Look at Roy Nelson, this guy made the UFC and had a successful run. He was never one of the best ones, but overall, he's had about 20 UFC fights, to me that's a successful career. There is no effin way someone with his physical condition could even come close to competing in any league as grueling as the NHL.

In no way shape or form is being a fighter in the UFC similar to an athlete in the NHL.
Didn't Bernard Hopkins unify titles at 49 in boxing? Randy Couture was winning titles in his 40s too.
Fighting is very very different. You can train all year and fight once. Heck, it happened to Cormier when his only fight over the span of about 15 months was to Anderson Silva. You can't possibly compare that to hockey players who need to travel to multiple cities every week to play 2-4 games.


Your reflexes can take a step back, but then, will your opponent be able to even use that to his advantage? Not necessarily. If I try to box Hopkins, he'd crush me in one second even at 53. Of course, the discrepency between actual fighters is nowhere near this level, but point is, if your opposition isn't that elite to begin with, your age won't matter all that much. That's why I give him way more credit for his Stipe win, who I feel is very good, but then he's 36 so the age difference isn't important.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Well, that's because the season of a hockey player spans over 6 or 7 months. Include the team training camps/exhibition games, and you have the players being active from September to possibly June. To that, add all the traveling involved.
The training camp in fighting is the equivalent of the off-season training of team sports, and then you jump right into Game 7 of the Stanley Cup. Cormier fights maybe twice per year? Look at Roy Nelson, this guy made the UFC and had a successful run. He was never one of the best ones, but overall, he's had about 20 UFC fights, to me that's a successful career. There is no effin way someone with his physical condition could even come close to competing in any league as grueling as the NHL.

In no way shape or form is being a fighter in the UFC similar to an athlete in the NHL.
Didn't Bernard Hopkins unify titles at 49 in boxing? Randy Couture was winning titles in his 40s too.
Fighting is very very different. You can train all year and fight once. Heck, it happened to Cormier when his only fight over the span of about 15 months was to Anderson Silva. You can't possibly compare that to hockey players who need to travel to multiple cities every week to play 2-4 games.


Your reflexes can take a step back, but then, will your opponent be able to even use that to his advantage? Not necessarily. If I try to box Hopkins, he'd crush me in one second even at 53. Of course, the discrepency between actual fighters is nowhere near this level, but point is, if your opposition isn't that elite to begin with, your age won't matter all that much. That's why I give him way more credit for his Stipe win, who I feel is very good, but then he's 36 so the age difference isn't important.

Were not talking about competing, we're talking about being a champion at that age. Guys in the NHL play till 40, how many of them lead the league in points though? That's the idea here. For the NHL its 40 but age catches up to you regardless.

Nelson and even Mark hunt are fighting into their 40s but let's be honest. The HW division is meh sometimes. There's some high end talent in every division but I don't think HW is as deep and a lot of fighters aren't mixed martial artists to me. Some guys are pure strikers or wrestlers. Ngannou, Lesnar, Hunt, Nelson, etc... are all guys who are one dimensional and have had success. Stipe on the other hand...he KOs people and can wrestle. Blaydes might be a future champ, Ngannou has to work on things but has potential. LHW is more rounded, some wrestlers in there and guys who work to make weight instead of eating freely.

I'm no boxing buff but is Hopkins considered in some hall of fame worthy career? I'd imagine so given what you told me. Same with Couture, cream of the crop types. Maybe not the GOATs but already in elite category. It's not easy to do that. Very few can.

I guess when Jones returns we can say the same if he wins. When the division is weak doesn't matter if he's on roids or not and it shouldn't really count?

At a certain point...

Anyway, I never said Jones isn't talented or DC IS the GOAT. I said some put DC as GOAT, I don't. I also said Jones has a * near his name. I'm comfortable saying that and it's not really a cutting edge opinion, lots of people feel this way.

 

[Kriss E]

Yeah and many believe Hendricks beat GSP. So what?

When USADA came in Hendricks showed who he really was all the way to an early retirement.

Hendricks lost. That's it that's all.

 

[Kriss E]

I don't think you get extra points for ignorant reasoning either. john jones had a no contest against cormier, cormier beat A. Johnson 2 times (he was the scariest guy by FAR) , then by your logic Jones >>>>>>johnson .
but jones never fought anthony johnson, and saying Anthony Johnson was over the hill is so hypocritical and ignorant.

saying stipe is the only fighter worth mentioning on cormier's fight list is like saying cormier is the only one worth mentioning on Jones' list.

Cormier had the tougher competition in the last 3 years, its not open for debate. its facts. Facts you're not even ready to accept yet.

JJ beat Cormier twice. One was later ruled NC. Both those statements are factual and have nothing to do with the law of transitivity.

 

[Kriss E]

Were not talking about competing, we're talking about being a champion at that age. Guys in the NHL play till 40, how many of them lead the league in points though? That's the idea here. For the NHL its 40 but age catches up to you regardless.

Nelson and even Mark hunt are fighting into their 40s but let's be honest. The HW division is meh sometimes. There's some high end talent in every division but I don't think HW is as deep and a lot of fighters aren't mixed martial artists to me. Some guys are pure strikers or wrestlers. Ngannou, Lesnar, Hunt, Nelson, etc... are all guys who are one dimensional and have had success. Stipe on the other hand...he KOs people and can wrestle. Blaydes might be a future champ, Ngannou has to work on things but has potential. LHW is more rounded, some wrestlers in there and guys who work to make weight instead of eating freely.

I'm no boxing buff but is Hopkins considered in some hall of fame worthy career? I'd imagine so given what you told me. Same with Couture, cream of the crop types. Maybe not the GOATs but already in elite category. It's not easy to do that. Very few can.

I guess when Jones returns we can say the same if he wins. When the division is weak doesn't matter if he's on roids or not and it shouldn't really count?

At a certain point...

Anyway, I never said Jones isn't talented or DC IS the GOAT. I said some put DC as GOAT, I don't. I also said Jones has a * near his name. I'm comfortable saying that and it's not really a cutting edge opinion, lots of people feel this way.

Point is many fighters still compete in their late 30s. Some can reach highest rate of success, some not so much.

And again, drawing a comparison between leading an 82 game season that includes multiple travel destinations, sometimes jetlag, games within the same week to fighting is just silly.
Make Cormier fight every 3 months, let's see how his 39yo body keeps up. Fighting once or twice per year is not grueling.
Training camp can be grueling, but then, it depends on how you train, your off seasons, and they are much shorter than a hockey season.
Really, it's not comparable. Drop this hockey thing, it's silly.

And I've said DC is a great fighter, just not GOAT material. Not yet.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Hendricks lost. That's it that's all.

I'm a big GSP fan. I went to NYC last year just to watch his comeback but let's be honest...there's a fair argument Hendricks won that fight.

I'm not complaining given my GSP fan status but still, some felt it was a mistake.

Either way, on the card I watched in NYC Hendricks was there. While GSP was winning titles in a new weight class Hendricks was getting KOed in first round.

Makes you wonder why Hendricks dropped off.

USADA came into effect June 2015 and Hendricks is 1-5 since after going 17-3 in his career before that.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Point is many fighters still compete in their late 30s. Some can reach highest rate of success, some not so much.

And again, drawing a comparison between leading an 82 game season that includes multiple travel destinations, sometimes jetlag, games within the same week to fighting is just silly.
Make Cormier fight every 3 months, let's see how his 39yo body keeps up. Fighting once or twice per year is not grueling.
Training camp can be grueling, but then, it depends on how you train, your off seasons, and they are much shorter than a hockey season.
Really, it's not comparable. Drop this hockey thing, it's silly.

And I've said DC is a great fighter, just not GOAT material. Not yet.

Well...from april 2017 to july 2018 DC fought 4 times. That's 4 fights in 15 months. A fight every 3.75 months. So I guess we know how his 39 year old body keeps up already...

 

[Kriss E]

Well...from april 2017 to july 2018 DC fought 4 times. That's 4 fights in 15 months. A fight every 3.75 months. So I guess we know how his 39 year old body keeps up already...

And maybe that's thanks to his low amount of fights previously, and he also lost one of those fights, so...not sure how that works in your favor.

 

[Kriss E]

I'm a big GSP fan. I went to NYC last year just to watch his comeback but let's be honest...there's a fair argument Hendricks won that fight.

I'm not complaining given my GSP fan status but still, some felt it was a mistake.

Either way, on the card I watched in NYC Hendricks was there. While GSP was winning titles in a new weight class Hendricks was getting KOed in first round.

Makes you wonder why Hendricks dropped off.

USADA came into effect June 2015 and Hendricks is 1-5 since after going 17-3 in his career before that.

There could be many reasons as to why Hendricks fell off. You don't know.
What we know is he lost to GSP.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Yeah and many believe Hendricks beat GSP. So what?

When USADA came in Hendricks showed who he really was all the way to an early retirement.

People can believe what they want, it doesn't trump what has actually happened, ie Jones beating Cormier twice. To claim Cormier's competition or dominance was on equal footing to Jones is revisionist history. He was dominating better guys, and set the bar, this isn't the case with Cormier. He's beaten a lot of half done bums and I mean a lot.

The what have you done for me lately crowd is always out in full force. The only way you can reasonably argue Cormier ahead of Jones is you try to take some sort of moral high ground and disqualify Jones because of his failed USADA tests, otherwise there is simply no argument.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

People can believe what they want, it doesn't trump what has actually happened, ie Jones beating Cormier twice. To claim Cormier's competition or dominance was on equal footing to Jones is revisionist history. He dominating better guys, and set the bar, this isn't the case with Cormier. He's beaten a lot of half done bums and I mean a lot.

As I did earlier, I analyzed both sets of competition.

I have not seen that by anyone else.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I don't think you get extra points for ignorant reasoning either. john jones had a no contest against cormier, cormier beat A. Johnson 2 times (he was the scariest guy by FAR) , then by your logic Jones >>>>>>johnson .
but jones never fought anthony johnson, and saying Anthony Johnson was over the hill is so hypocritical and ignorant.

saying stipe is the only fighter worth mentioning on cormier's fight list is like saying cormier is the only one worth mentioning on Jones' list.

Cormier had the tougher competition in the last 3 years, its not open for debate. its facts. Facts you're not even ready to accept yet.

When did Anthony Johnson because some sort of measuring stick? Is this real life?

 

[THE HOFF]

When did Anthony Johnson because some sort of measuring stick? Is this real life?

is this a real question ? I can't tell....but its real life... are you okay ?

JJ beat Cormier twice. One was later ruled NC. Both those statements are factual and have nothing to do with the law of transitivity.

JJ cheated twice, got caught once. just as legit as saying JJ won twice.