OT: General UFC/MMA/Boxing discussion VIII

[LyricalLyricist]

There's so much behind the scene things going that you don't know of.
They don't test every single UFC fighter. They only do random testing after having a reason to do so.
But you tell me, how come Armstrong passed every single one of his tests?

I really think you should inform yourself a bit more on this matter if you believe the majority aren't using some type of PEDs or that they are easily detectable.

I get it. Testing isn't perfect. Hopefully the rest get caught. For now the biggest offenders may be the ones who are at risk. The biggest names get tested the most as well.

 

[Kriss E]

I get it. Testing isn't perfect. Hopefully the rest get caught. For now the biggest offenders may be the ones who are at risk. The biggest names get tested the most as well.

There is something fundamentally wrong here in sport that make testing absolutely moronic and counterproductive.
From an entirely business standpoint, do you think the UFC (or any other company) benefits from doping tests? I mean, I get it, people still think it's morally wrong so they get involve with doping tests to keep up a nice image but really, do you think the UFC wants to do doping tests?
If all their cash cows get caught and suspended, what happens to the UFC? They lose major ticket draws, people lose interest, in a nutshell, they'll make way less money.
Also, getting involved with USADA costs a crap load too.

Kinda counterproductive isn't it? I'm going to pay this massive company a ton of cash, so they can suspend my biggest earners...
And there have been allegations of corruption inside USADA for a while.

So who gets tested, who gets known to test positive, fact Armstrong got away with it like 23238344 times, it all means jack freaking crap today. Perhaps a few have tainted sports where it's now completely contaminated, well, that sucks but it is what it is.


Anyways, we went off on tangent. Even if you want to remove Silva-JJ from discussion. I don't think DC is in discussion for GOAT.

 

[THE HOFF]

And you can cry cheating all you want, fact is Cormier lost twice to Jones. Twice. One was later ruled as a NC, and the other is still on his record.

You are right, they are linked closely. Difference is also, again, Cormier lost twice to him.

yeah these two are closely ranked, but its probably a good thing for jones if they don't fight again (my opinion). Cormier grew immensely as a fighter and the difference can be seen even in those two fight, where cormier dominated the second fight before he got clipped with that headkick (great setup by jones!). since that fight, cormier still grew A LOT as a fighter and his confidence is sky high, while being his old crazy self-determined athlete. Jones has a weak win against OSP and a no contest against cormier where he knocked him out while being dominated. Both guys will make the history of their sport, and while jones might be cormier's kryptonite, an official ''2nd fight'' would put this matter to rest. Cormier lost once, not twice, and that's on jones getting caught using banned substances. a no contest is a no contest. It would apply to jones if cormier had won and then got caught using.

since their first fight :

jones fought : (1 no contest) , OSP.

cormier fought : (1 no contest) , anthony johnson (2 times), gustafsson, Silva, Ozdemir, Miocic.

so my point is this : those are the facts.

The problem I have is not the steroids - the guy got caught.

There is a vocal crowd that doesn't care about the use of steroids, and you know what, I don't share but I respect that point of view. But I can't stand when people speculate about what jones would have accomplished if he hadn't been caught. Those are pure speculations, a no contest is a no contest, and while cormier is making his mark on his sport, all we hear people say is how many imaginary fights jon jones would have won. most of them can't get over the simple fact that a no contest is not a win for jones.

 

[Mike Mike Caron]

GSP career is more impressive than Cormier, Jones is a better fighter than Cormier. I don't see how Cormier can even be in the GOAT discussion. He never avanged any of his losses to Jones, he's out of the discussion.

 

[Kriss E]

yeah these two are closely ranked, but its probably a good thing for jones if they don't fight again (my opinion). Cormier grew immensely as a fighter and the difference can be seen even in those two fight, where cormier dominated the second fight before he got clipped with that headkick (great setup by jones!). since that fight, cormier still grew A LOT as a fighter and his confidence is sky high, while being his old crazy self-determined athlete. Jones has a weak win against OSP and a no contest against cormier where he knocked him out while being dominated. Both guys will make the history of their sport, and while jones might be cormier's kryptonite, an official ''2nd fight'' would put this matter to rest. Cormier lost once, not twice, and that's on jones getting caught using banned substances. a no contest is a no contest. It would apply to jones if cormier had won and then got caught using.

since their first fight :

jones fought : (1 no contest) , OSP.

cormier fought : (1 no contest) , anthony johnson (2 times), gustafsson, Silva, Ozdemir, Miocic.

so my point is this : those are the facts.

The problem I have is not the steroids - the guy got caught.

There is a vocal crowd that doesn't care about the use of steroids, and you know what, I don't share but I respect that point of view. But I can't stand when people speculate about what jones would have accomplished if he hadn't been caught. Those are pure speculations, a no contest is a no contest, and while cormier is making his mark on his sport, all we hear people say is how many imaginary fights jon jones would have won. most of them can't get over the simple fact that a no contest is not a win for jones.

If you want to stick to facts then why say it's a No Contest? It isn't. It's a loss that was reversed and turned into a NC. But the initial call is a loss. He never beat Jones.
Cormier didn't just get caught, you make it sound like GSP vs Serra I. Not at all the case.

As for imaginary fights, not sure who's talking about that, I certainly didn't.

 

[THE HOFF]

If you want to stick to facts then why say it's a No Contest? It isn't. It's a loss that was reversed and turned into a NC. But the initial call is a loss. He never beat Jones.
Cormier didn't just get caught, you make it sound like GSP vs Serra I. Not at all the case.

As for imaginary fights, not sure who's talking about that, I certainly didn't.

self explanatory.

 

[Kriss E]

self explanatory.

Yet you leave out important information...seems a little biased to me.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Who is inventing fake wins for Jones I am confused by this statement. We don't need to fake any results for Jones, his domination and wins list is way more impressive than Cormier's. It's not close.

And he scored a knockout in a fight he was dominated? What are you even talking about. Jones won rds 1 and 2 and knocked him out in rd3. I think you might need a do over on that one lol...

 

[THE HOFF]

Who is inventing fake wins for Jones I am confused by this statement. We don't need to fake any results for Jones, his domination and wins list is way more impressive than Cormier's. It's not close.

referring to any sentence you might have heard starting with : ''jones would have _______ (insert speculation) this guy. ''

well aware jones will be a legend in MMA, even with a couple of stains on his record such as getting caught using banned substances multiple times. the fact remains he hasn't done jack shit that means anything lately and as much as you can say Cormier ''is not close'' ... he's clearly faced the best opposition in the last 3 years....that's not even close. I'm tired to hear what he ''would have done'' ... until his ghost returns and we see what a clean jones can do, its pointless to compare him to a guy that is still achieving things. when they are both done we'll have the debate.

as far as their last bout goes, if you couldn't see jones on the back foot then its whatever, its a no contest anyways

 

[BehindTheTimes]

referring to any sentence you might have heard starting with : ''jones would have _______ (insert speculation) this guy. ''

well aware jones will be a legend in MMA, even with a couple of stains on his record such as getting caught using banned substances multiple times. the fact remains he hasn't done jack **** that means anything lately and as much as you can say Cormier ''is not close'' ... he's clearly faced the best opposition in the last 3 years....that's not even close. I'm tired to hear what he ''would have done'' ... until his ghost returns and we see what a clean jones can do, its pointless to compare him to a guy that is still achieving things. when they are both done we'll have the debate.

There's nothing Cormier can do to catch up.

 

[THE HOFF]

There's nothing Cormier can do to catch up.

taking roids ?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Jones' competition is similar to DCs.

I looked at both side by side.

 

[THE HOFF]

general question for everyone ;

how excited are you about connor vs khabib ?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

general question for everyone ;

how excited are you about connor vs khabib ?

Very. My friends aren't as into MMA as I am but last year a friend and I went to UFC 217 at MSG.

This year I'd like to to NYC again, Toronto or Las Vegas for that fight. I HIGHLY doubt any of my friends will pay the premium so I guess I'll just end up streaming it.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

general question for everyone ;

how excited are you about connor vs khabib ?

I'll be watching for sure, but I've got a bad feeling Khabib just wrestlef***s Connor into oblivion.

 

[Redux91]

general question for everyone ;

how excited are you about connor vs khabib ?

Preeeeettty sure its gonna be a doozy.
Hard to tell who wins too, hard to write off Connor, but if he does indeed lose, i think its the beginning of the end, if he wins, look out

 

[Kriss E]

general question for everyone ;

how excited are you about connor vs khabib ?

Meh...
I'll probably get more excited closer to the date.
Actually I'll be back in Montreal for 6 days that coincide with that weekend, so should be fun to watch this with all my peeps back home.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

general question for everyone ;

how excited are you about connor vs khabib ?

Very excited, although the whole McGregor getting away from his troubles without even a slap on the wrist left a pretty sour taste in my mouth . I've been a fan of the guy but now I'll be wishing for Khabib to give him some ground and pound justice. The buildup will be fun in any case, the fights where there's legit bad blood always make for the best promos. You just know things are gonna get crazy.

 

[Deebs]

general question for everyone ;

how excited are you about connor vs khabib ?

Massive fight and one that needs to happen. I'm a fan of both guys so it's great for me.

We know Khabib is going to try and maul him, that's his MO. His pace and ground and pound is relentless. Mac is going to try to stuff those takedowns and then pick away at him with precision punching.

Khabib doesn't like being punched and Conor hates the ground. Whoever can defend their area of weakness the best, will win the fight imo. If Khabib can take him down, he wins. If Conor can keep it standing, he wins.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Massive fight and one that needs to happen. I'm a fan of both guys so it's great for me.

We know Khabib is going to try and maul him, that's his MO. His pace and ground and pound is relentless. Mac is going to try to stuff those takedowns and then pick away at him with precision punching.

Khabib doesn't like being punched and Conor hates the ground. Whoever can defend their area of weakness the best, will win the fight imo. If Khabib can take him down, he wins. If Conor can keep it standing, he wins.

Conor always gasses out too so time really is key. If he wins it'll have to be fairly quick, any type of long fight is 100% to Khabib's advantage.

 

[Kriss E]

Very excited, although the whole McGregor getting away from his troubles without even a slap on the wrist left a pretty sour taste in my mouth . I've been a fan of the guy but now I'll be wishing for Khabib to give him some ground and pound justice. The buildup will be fun in any case, the fights where there's legit bad blood always make for the best promos. You just know things are gonna get crazy.

To me that shows it was a big set up. I don't think there is genuine bad blood. They just slowly built this up.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

To me that shows it was a big set up. I don't think there is genuine bad blood. They just slowly built this up.

It's possible, if it's a work it's one of the absolute greatest ever.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Jones' competition is similar to DCs.

I looked at both side by side.

We disagree, you repeating this doesn't change anything.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

We disagree, you repeating this doesn't change anything.

Ya but provide evidence.

Sonnen and Belfort were essentially middleweights.
Then you got Rua, Bader, Jackson as bigger names which is fine.
Gustafsson is shared between Cormier and Jones so it's irrelevant.

Cormier has fought bigger guys with more reach his entire career over two divisions.
Anthony Johnson(twice), Stipe were very very good competition as well.
Silva and Henderson are big names but weren't in ideal circumstances(out of prime or moving up a division not unlike some guys Jones faced)
Volkan, Bigfoot Silva and others are that mid-tier not unlike Jackson or even Bader given Volkan was crushing the division.

I mean, if you want to say Jones had better competition then it's an opinion but to say it's not even close...I mean, you count Jackson who was 32-8 when they fought but Volkan is nothing when he's KOing everybody and was 15-1 going in? Stipe doesn't count? Anthony Johnson KOed Gustafsson, Bader and Teixera in first round between his two fights with Cormier. Jones and Cormier had brawls with Gus so he's no slouch and this guy KOed him.

These are legitimate talents and competition for both guys. I don't see how you can say one is by far better. Where's the evidence? Because Jones faced a few popular middleweights? Because you want to ignore Stipe, Johnson, Volkan and pretend some lesser talents Jones faced surpass that?

It's comparable. You can nitpick if you like but I'm not saying one is better than the other. I just don't understand the logic one is in some completely different level. It's not.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Ya but provide evidence.

Sonnen and Belfort were essentially middleweights.
Then you got Rua, Bader, Jackson as bigger names which is fine.
Gustafsson is shared between Cormier and Jones so it's irrelevant.

Cormier has fought bigger guys with more reach his entire career over two divisions.
Anthony Johnson(twice), Stipe were very very good competition as well.
Silva and Henderson are big names but weren't in ideal circumstances(out of prime or moving up a division not unlike some guys Jones faced)
Volkan, Bigfoot Silva and others are that mid-tier not unlike Jackson or even Bader given Volkan was crushing the division.

I mean, if you want to say Jones had better competition then it's an opinion but to say it's not even close...I mean, you count Jackson who was 32-8 when they fought but Volkan is nothing when he's KOing everybody and was 15-1 going in? Stipe doesn't count? Anthony Johnson KOed Gustafsson, Bader and Teixera in first round between his two fights with Cormier. Jones and Cormier had brawls with Gus so he's no slouch and this guy KOed him.

These are legitimate talents and competition for both guys. I don't see how you can say one is by far better. Where's the evidence? Because Jones faced a few popular middleweights? Because you want to ignore Stipe, Johnson, Volkan and pretend some lesser talents Jones faced surpass that?

It's comparable. You can nitpick if you like but I'm not saying one is better than the other. I just don't understand the logic one is in some completely different level. It's not.

I'm not going to go back and forth on this. I already gave my opinion, Cormier's list is complete meh to me, you repeating it is not going to change my mind. Already know who the names are. You keep going back to size. Size isn't everything, Jones fought much tougher guys in their prime. Cormier has beaten mostly has-beens.