OT: General UFC/MMA/Boxing discussion VIII

[Pompeius Magnus]

The place is absolutely electric. You can sense the tension.

 

[MD thaivuN]

Garbrandt gets hurts everytime he gets hit on the button.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Welp now we know.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Jesus, what a round ! Once again, Cody's defense is a giant swiss cheese, he goes WAY too wide with his shots, TJ could see him coming from a mile away.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Boom baby

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Cody's reason for disliking TJ is stupid to begin with.

"He changed team, wahhhh"

It just became increasingly ridiculous that people forgot how ridiculous it was.

Cody way too emotional over it, KOed in 2nd then KOed in 1st. Goodnight Cody!

 

[Kriss E]

He still beat him and everyone else, undefeated heavyweight. Two division champ.

When you have credentials outside of MMA it doesn't play into your MMA career but it sure does dispel any notion of him facing poor competition because he was facing top competition in similar sport prior.

It's really irrelevant to me. It plays 0 factor in whether or not they're GOAT.

Jones is a joke. I'll say it over and over. A guy who does a hit and run and leaves a pregnant woman at the scene...is a joke.

We are not talking about winning the Nobel prize here..

A guy busted for PEDs twice is a joke. Yeah, you're pro PED but rules are rules. If you don't play by the rules you aren't playing fair.

That's very naive. Guys get popped left and right, let's not be stupid and act like everyone out there is clean until caught.
Armstrong was never caught, we also know the 9 guys behind him were using. One of the guys working on Olympic committee said he believes 90% of athletes use.
So no, I'm not going to categorically eliminate the accomplish of an athlete because he gets caught.

Jones often would tell Daniel Cormier "who's your daddy?". DC later revealed why he does it, because DC's father was murdered and Jones tries to bring it up on purpose. Jones was even informed by it from the UFC and he kept doing it. Jones is the greatest POS of all time.

I mean, what does this have to do with his fighting ability? Who cares. Yes, he's a POS. Again, not about the Nobel Prize.

As for the guys he fought, DC is 39 and winning titles. As much as you want to say over the hill it's not like he's 28 facing a 45 year old. He's getting up there in age too and still schooling guys like Volkan.

Why call Silva over the hill at the time. DC was his 2nd loss in 5 years and he was 9-1 in last 10 going into that fight.

His fighting resume is just not that impressive. That's not his fault, he just fought in a time where the competition was weak.
Big foot was 9-1...fighting guys like Ricco Rodriguez and Andrei Arlovski. His loss to Cormier start his great run of 3-9-1.
But hey, give him Big Foot if you want, the list is still ''meh''.

Don't forget DC started in MMA at 30. Only started in UFC at 34. What he's done in a short time is impressive.

You may not have him as #1 and that's fine but lets be realistic.

Sure, and he's a great fighter. I just don't have him as the GOAT, not even in the discussion.

Silva was caught with something twice...even if he last time he proved it was a 'tainted supplement'. Still, one of the best.
Jones, twice had to face USADA.

****, I mean, Jones has more losses to USADA than DC has vs anyone in his career. He's talented but his record is now with an *.

Changes nothing to me. Anderson Silva is GOAT in my book. How he picked apart and absolutely dominated his fights in his own style was a beautiful thing to see. After him I put GSP, then Fedor, then Jones.

GSP is legit...from what we know.

DJ has a lot of defenses, record breaking numbers but in such a weak division and one of the only of all time to not cross to other divisions.

There's other greats, UFC hall of fame types but are they GOAT? I'm not sure they are. The usual suspects are in the mix and DC is among the best of all time.

Not to me he isn't. If he pursues his reign, then sure, but for now he isn't in the discussion for me. Not of all time.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

@Kriss E

There’s an irony in that jones and dc faces same people a lot of time. Some a little different obviously.

If DCs competition is too weak to make him top5, how is Jones?

Especially since jones got caught using. Say what you want about fact some haven’t been caught but jones has, twice. Just because some are still free doesn’t make Jones innocent.

They faced same competition. DC faced other guys like Stipe whereas I’m sure Jones fought some good ones too.

DC did it over 2 divisions too.

These guys are linked and so damn close. Difference is one is a proven cheater and other has done well in 2 weight classes.

 

[Kriss E]

@Kriss E

There’s an irony in that jones and dc faces same people a lot of time. Some a little different obviously.

If DCs competition is too weak to make him top5, how is Jones?

Especially since jones got caught using. Say what you want about fact some haven’t been caught but jones has, twice. Just because some are still free doesn’t make Jones innocent.

They faced same competition. DC faced other guys like Stipe whereas I’m sure Jones fought some good ones too.

DC did it over 2 divisions too.

These guys are linked and so damn close. Difference is one is a proven cheater and other has done well in 2 weight classes.

And you can cry cheating all you want, fact is Cormier lost twice to Jones. Twice. One was later ruled as a NC, and the other is still on his record.

You are right, they are linked closely. Difference is also, again, Cormier lost twice to him.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

@Kriss E

There’s an irony in that jones and dc faces same people a lot of time. Some a little different obviously.

If DCs competition is too weak to make him top5, how is Jones?

Especially since jones got caught using. Say what you want about fact some haven’t been caught but jones has, twice. Just because some are still free doesn’t make Jones innocent.

They faced same competition. DC faced other guys like Stipe whereas I’m sure Jones fought some good ones too.

DC did it over 2 divisions too.

These guys are linked and so damn close. Difference is one is a proven cheater and other has done well in 2 weight classes.

Sry Dude, but Jones competition and win list completely destroys DC's. There is so little cross over here it is not funny. He was punking Evans, Machida, Rua, Jackson 7/8 years ago when they were all still at the top of their game.
For me it's
1a GSP/1B Silva
2 Fedor
3 Jones
....
....
....
....
....
....
DC

There's a bunch of guys between Jones and DC for me too with my more impressive records.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

@Kriss E are you on juice now? You seem to be defending it in multiple threads...

 

[Kriss E]

@Kriss E are you on juice now? You seem to be defending it in multiple threads...

Why would I be? I have no reason to be on PEDs.
I don't smoke weed either and am completely pro marijuana.

And I wasn't defending them here, I am saying they don't tarnish anything for me.
Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire are still the best baseball hitters to me.
So whether Jones took some or not, I don't care, that's not what made him an incredibly savvy fighter.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Why would I be? I have no reason to be on PEDs.
I don't smoke weed either and am completely pro marijuana.

And I wasn't defending them here, I am saying they don't tarnish anything for me.
Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire are still the best baseball hitters to me.
So whether Jones took some or not, I don't care, that's not what made him an incredibly savvy fighter.

Have you ever done them? Am just curious as you do seem passionate about the subject.

 

[DramaticGloveSave]

Why would I be? I have no reason to be on PEDs.
I don't smoke weed either and am completely pro marijuana.

And I wasn't defending them here, I am saying they don't tarnish anything for me.
Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire are still the best baseball hitters to me.
So whether Jones took some or not, I don't care, that's not what made him an incredibly savvy fighter.

Have you ever done them? Am just curious as you do seem passionate about the subject.

 

[Kriss E]

Have you ever done them? Am just curious as you do seem passionate about the subject.

I'm passionate about everything related to my field. I am not into bodybuilding, so taking roids to look good at the Beach Club was never my thing. So no, have never tried.
I have never really had a reason to do them. Working in fitness though, I am permanently interested in anything that improves strength or performance.

I just have done a lot of research as it was rather odd to me how something that helps is so demonized.

 

[26Mats]

Strange there's no article on the front page of tsn.ca about Alvarez becoming world champion.

 

[LeHab]

Strange there's no article on the front page of tsn.ca about Alvarez becoming world champion.

Pretty typical, except for Quebec boxing is not popular in ROC. Really happy for Alvarez, couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Hope he remains as humble as always. So what is next for Alvarez - revenge or a shot a unification?

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Sry Dude, but Jones competition and win list completely destroys DC's. There is so little cross over here it is not funny. He was punking Evans, Machida, Rua, Jackson 7/8 years ago when they were all still at the top of their game.
For me it's
1a GSP/1B Silva
2 Fedor
3 Jones
....
....
....
....
....
....
DC

There's a bunch of guys between Jones and DC for me too with my more impressive records.

Fedor is a good one that I missed but you named 4. I guess we can add DJ even if he lost. I mean can you really name that many guys ahead of him? I'm not sure. There's a lot of talented guys who are/were good in lower weight classes but they aren't as well regarded because it's not the same time of volatility as say a heavyweight division.

I'm not sure about competition though.

Excluding facing each other:

Cormier faced Anthony Johnson twice and finished him both times. Johnson is a guy who KOed guys like Gustafsson so he's clearly good competition.

Volkan beat someone like ovince saint preux. DC beat Volkan. If OSP is nothing special then remember that's who Jones fought to win the interim title...So if the guy that beat Jones' competition is no good, what is Jones' competition?

Jones beat some guys who were mostly middleweights like Belfort, Machida, etc...

Jones did beat some good guys too, no question. Rua back in the day and Jackson.

They both faced and beat Gus.

Cormier faced Stipe who is legit and Cormier did well over 2 divisions.

Now...honestly...I don't see Jones' competition dwarfing Cormier's. For all the guys Jones faced DC faced similar guys and a lot of times bigger guys, not guys who are actually middleweights.

You can nitpick here and there but I don't see how one's competition is dramatically better than the other. It really isn't.

And you can cry cheating all you want, fact is Cormier lost twice to Jones. Twice. One was later ruled as a NC, and the other is still on his record.

You are right, they are linked closely. Difference is also, again, Cormier lost twice to him.

I bet Jones was on something both times but oh well. 1 official loss.

I'm not worried. Even if Jones is supposed to be the GOAT to some he's ruined it. Cormier will have fought 15 times over two divisions in the same span Jones fought 6 times. When Jones returns and has to be careful on his PED usage he'll look just as he looked vs OSP, unimpressive. If Gus ever gets his shit together I could see him giving Jones a loss and sooner than later the status will start to waiver.

I'd love to see how competitive Jones is at 39 without PEDs. He'll have more than 1 loss on his record by then...assuming he doesn't get himself banned.

 

[DavePeak]

Pretty typical, except for Quebec boxing is not popular in ROC. Really happy for Alvarez, couldn't happen to a nicer guy. Hope he remains as humble as always. So what is next for Alvarez - revenge or a shot a unification?

Any specific or historical reason why? Because of the lack of boxing promoters in ROC? Or is it the other way around?

 

[Kriss E]

I bet Jones was on something both times but oh well. 1 official loss.

I'm not worried. Even if Jones is supposed to be the GOAT to some he's ruined it. Cormier will have fought 15 times over two divisions in the same span Jones fought 6 times. When Jones returns and has to be careful on his PED usage he'll look just as he looked vs OSP, unimpressive. If Gus ever gets his **** together I could see him giving Jones a loss and sooner than later the status will start to waiver.

I'd love to see how competitive Jones is at 39 without PEDs. He'll have more than 1 loss on his record by then...assuming he doesn't get himself banned.

1 official loss, and again, another one we also lost. He lost that fight no matter what spin you want to use.
So it's 2 losses.
I don't think Jones is the GOAT, I think Silva is.
And I am not saying Cormier isn't great, he is, just not GOAT level.
I don't know if Jones will ever fight again, let alone do it till he's 39, but that means nothing to me.

I think Bo Jackson is arguably the greatest athlete to ever live, yet his career was quite short.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

1 official loss, and again, another one we also lost. He lost that fight no matter what spin you want to use.
So it's 2 losses.
I don't think Jones is the GOAT, I think Silva is.
And I am not saying Cormier isn't great, he is, just not GOAT level.
I don't know if Jones will ever fight again, let alone do it till he's 39, but that means nothing to me.

I think Bo Jackson is arguably the greatest athlete to ever live, yet his career was quite short.

The point was you had Jones as your #4 stating the competition he faced is better than DC's and it isn't.

Jones clean in late 30s will show his true colors and that he doesn't belong there.

He could always surprise, his technique is excellent. He has a big time fight IQ and I'm not dissing that. I'm dissing the legitimacy of his record but I suppose if he decides to continue fighting it will all sort himself out when he becomes beatable without cheating.

Just to share: There's a story about Jones that's quite funny. One time USADA came to Jackson Wink's gym to test him. His coaches said "he's not here" and they said "we'll wait". He hid under the octagon the entire day. The entire f***ing day. He was terrified of doing testing.

For all the good things Jones is, he's a lot of bad things too.

I'm no baseball buff but earlier you mentioned McGuire I believe. Isn't he not in the hall of fame? If so, the PEDs are reason why so...Same applies here IMO.

Anyway, you can look at Jones' and DC's fight history. They had similar competition so whatever. One was not dramatically better than the other unless you count Jones beating on middleweights as a light heavyweight a big success.​

 

[Kriss E]

The point was you had Jones as your #4 stating the competition he faced is better than DC's and it isn't.​

I didn't really comment on JJ's competition, more so on DC's.
I think DC fought a bunch of guys that were really past their prime, or at the start of their downfall. I give him full marks on beating Stipe though and said if he keeps it up, then absolutely, he should be part of the GOAT discussion.
If you want to discuss JJ's competition, I think it's a notch up from DC's.

Jones clean in late 30s will show his true colors and that he doesn't belong there.

So what? Most people can't fight late into their 30s. You don't get bonus points for that.

He could always surprise, his technique is excellent. He has a big time fight IQ and I'm not dissing that. I'm dissing the legitimacy of his record but I suppose if he decides to continue fighting it will all sort himself out when he becomes beatable without cheating.

Depends. Silva remains the best P4P to me despite him getting caught and losing fights.
If Cormier beats Lesnar, if he beats Jones when he comes back, well fine. Have him part of the discussion, but I'd still put GSP and Silva over him because what they did is just very difficult to surpass.

Just to share: There's a story about Jones that's quite funny. One time USADA came to Jackson Wink's gym to test him. His coaches said "he's not here" and they said "we'll wait". He hid under the octagon the entire day. The entire ****ing day. He was terrified of doing testing.

For all the good things Jones is, he's a lot of bad things too.

I'm sure there are plenty of silly stories out there. I'm sure he waited "the entire day" under the octagon. Pretty sure he pissed and crapped under there too, also he called dominos and had the pizza deliver to him, watched a couple movies...
That story also added USADA thought of using forensic to see if Jones peed under the cage...Right.
I don't buy this BS.

I'm no baseball buff but earlier you mentioned McGuire I believe. Isn't he not in the hall of fame? If so, the PEDs are reason why so...Same applies here IMO.

Which is completely freaking stupid. Barry Bonds is the greatest hitter of all time, I don't care that he used PEDs, he's still accomplished all those things.

Anyway, you can look at Jones' and DC's fight history. They had similar competition so whatever. One was not dramatically better than the other unless you count Jones beating on middleweights as a light heavyweight a big success.

​

I think JJ's had a bit tougher competition and he's beat them all. He also beat Cormier twice, which you seem to either ignore or barely acknowledge. Even at that, I don't have JJ as the GOAT.


Also, it's pretty ironic how PEDs are taken into account to discredit him, and his debauchery lifestyle ways are regularly brought up to blast his character yet completely ignoring the fact they are physically damaging. If the guy is doing blow and getting plastered, so wasted he does DUI and runs away, and is called all kinds of name for it, why aren't you bringing them up to say ''damn...imagine how good he'd be if he didn't have a degenerate lifestyle?"
I mean...if he's beating up on Cormier while hungover...

 

[LyricalLyricist]

@Kriss E

We'll have to agree to disagree at some point.

Bulletpoint response:

Jones and DC's competition is comparable. Jones faced guys smaller than him as some were middleweight regulars. They also faced same person at times. I don't think one exceeds the other.

DC's ability to be a double champ at 39 is a testament to his skill. If it's hard to be good that late it says something to me.

Jones' negligence is one thing but it's not like I'm going around saying "Imagine if DC didn't love bad food he'd be a beast!" Either way, JJ has plenty of time to party doing 1 fight a year on average lately. Beats getting punched in the head I guess.

Regarding GOAT status. GSP was asked recently about DJ's loss and DJ being the GOAT. He said he thinks he's the best. When the reporter asked "Better than Jon Jones?" GSP responded with "I think so, because he never got caught for anything wrong in terms of performance enhancing drugs so his legacy was perfect."

 

[Kriss E]

@Kriss E

We'll have to agree to disagree at some point.

Bulletpoint response:

Jones and DC's competition is comparable. Jones faced guys smaller than him as some were middleweight regulars. They also faced same person at times. I don't think one exceeds the other.

DC's ability to be a double champ at 39 is a testament to his skill. If it's hard to be good that late it says something to me.

Jones' negligence is one thing but it's not like I'm going around saying "Imagine if DC didn't love bad food he'd be a beast!" Either way, JJ has plenty of time to party doing 1 fight a year on average lately. Beats getting punched in the head I guess.

Regarding GOAT status. GSP was asked recently about DJ's loss and DJ being the GOAT. He said he thinks he's the best. When the reporter asked "Better than Jon Jones?" GSP responded with "I think so, because he never got caught for anything wrong in terms of performance enhancing drugs so his legacy was perfect."

Well good for GSP, but his opinion matters little to me. Everyone has their own opinion of who is the GOAT. To me, getting caught, doesn't lower the bar all that much, if at all.

If we lived in a world where we could say 99% of athletes are PEDs free, then okay, maybe I change my stance. But we don't. We live in a world where 90% of athletes are on something.
Unfortunate for the 10% that are clean, but that's just how it is.

And come on dude, do not equate dietary habits to getting so wasted and high you do a hit and run.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Well good for GSP, but his opinion matters little to me. Everyone has their own opinion of who is the GOAT. To me, getting caught, doesn't lower the bar all that much, if at all.

If we lived in a world where we could say 99% of athletes are PEDs free, then okay, maybe I change my stance. But we don't. We live in a world where 90% of athletes are on something.
Unfortunate for the 10% that are clean, but that's just how it is.

And come on dude, do not equate dietary habits to getting so wasted and high you do a hit and run.

You can get into an accident with barely any intoxication level. As long as you're over the limit you can get in trouble for it.

As for PEDs. Look, any way you slice it if 90% are taking it in any sport or even MMA then why do only 10% or less get caught? At a certain point it's odd how a guy like Jones who can avoid the best trainers, dieticians and all vs most guys in MMA is the one who gets busted. The average joe making 20k a fight(instead of 500k) and has a day job is the one who doesn't get flagged...weird right?

Anyway, it is what it is. I don't think highly of Jones although I do agree he's very talented.

 

[Kriss E]

You can get into an accident with barely any intoxication level. As long as you're over the limit you can get in trouble for it.

As for PEDs. Look, any way you slice it if 90% are taking it in any sport or even MMA then why do only 10% or less get caught? At a certain point it's odd how a guy like Jones who can avoid the best trainers, dieticians and all vs most guys in MMA is the one who gets busted. The average joe making 20k a fight(instead of 500k) and has a day job is the one who doesn't get flagged...weird right?

Anyway, it is what it is. I don't think highly of Jones although I do agree he's very talented.

There's so much behind the scene things going that you don't know of.
They don't test every single UFC fighter. They only do random testing after having a reason to do so.
But you tell me, how come Armstrong passed every single one of his tests?

I really think you should inform yourself a bit more on this matter if you believe the majority aren't using some type of PEDs or that they are easily detectable.