OT: General UFC/MMA/Boxing discussion VIII

[BehindTheTimes]

I think a large part of the watering down effect comes from the fact that guys are a lot more well rounded now. You don't see a lot of really 'specialized'' fighters with very distinctive styles anymore. Back then a lot of the flavor came from seeing those styles clashes, like a judo gold medalist facing a giant kickboxer and such. You'd have Sakuraba facing Kevin Randleman and you'd be like '' wow, grappling and submission expert versus giant roided up NCAA amateur wrestler, I really wonder what this will look like'' . For me at least that played a big part.

I think GSP would still clean out the welterweight division.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Well TJ said if he does it he'll need a few months to adjust which likely means he'd cut a little muscle or whatever to be able to make it.

I agree that DJ should be moving up. He's the dominant one in his division, he should be taking on new challenges...not waiting for his new challenger to cut more weight and dehydrate themselves. It makes little sense to me.

I never understood why people feel like the current division champ is under any obligation to move up in weight. I never understood it when people claimed GSP was ducking Silva and I don't understand it here.

I guess if DJ wants a payday, he might have to.

 

[Mike Mike Caron]

Can someone make me understand Demetrious Johnson's supposed leverage in a superfight with the bantamweight champion?

I mean, it's been discussed at length how he's dominated his division and needs a new challenge and how he alone does not generate enough interest in PPV numbers. He's said that if he had to move up a weight class he wants more money because punches are harder and he sees no benefit to getting paid same amount to take bigger hits.

We're good here I think. Then someone like TJ or Cody offer to go down to DJ's weight class and apparently for DJ..."the money needs to be right for me to accept"

But...why? You aren't moving up a weight class. You're getting more attention, improving your legacy, etc...

The only thing I see is "This might be my rare payday, can I have more please?" but I really do not see his leverage. He's dominated 125 lb and he'll keep making less money than he could as time goes on.

He's 5'2", fighting at 135 could be quite a challenge, even with his crazy skills.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Yeah, but why risk everything on a match where the fighters can't make weight? This isn't DJ's problem, it's Dana's problem. I don't blame him for wanting some sweetener here. When they don't make weight and DJ refuses to fight, Dana going to shame him publicly, so make that ******* pay. I'd do the samething if I were DJ, knowing you gonna try to guilt me into fighting anyway, you better make it worth it.

Legacy. It's not Dana's problem at all. Dana will just keep paying DJ less because his PPV numbers blow. If DJ wants to earn more money as he always says, he's going to have to push the pace and not act comfortable.

I never understood why people feel like the current division champ is under any obligation to move up in weight. I never understood it when people claimed GSP was ducking Silva and I don't understand it here.

I guess if DJ wants a payday, he might have to.

He's not at all. The point being if you think DJ and Cody can't make 125 the only other option is DJ moving up to 135 no?

If DJ doesn't want the fight, that's no problem. The difference between him and GSP is GSP is one of the biggest UFC draws in history.

Let's be real, if for some reason TJ or Cody gets injured and DJ headlines the card by default don't you think it would be one of the worst PPV buy ins of all time?

Can we say that about GSP? Mcgregor? Hell, I have more interest in Ferguson vs Poirier as a headliner as a #1 contender to face Mcgregor/Khabib winner than DJ defending his title a record number of times.

DJ is a talented fighter, dominant and a professional but he's got as much star appeal in the UFC as Shane Doan had in the NHL.

He's 5'2", fighting at 135 could be quite a challenge, even with his crazy skills.

I agree, but then he shouldn't be bitching on super fights. When Mcgregor's opponent couldn't make it he fought Diaz at welterweight and that match and the next became one of the biggest PPV buy rates in UFC history.

Last year people said DC was Jones' bitch and this year he's the GOAT.

If you wanna sit around and beat people you already have before then sure, just don't complain about your contract if few people buy PPVs for you.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Legacy. It's not Dana's problem at all. Dana will just keep paying DJ less because his PPV numbers blow. If DJ wants to earn more money as he always says, he's going to have to push the pace and not act comfortable.

Agreed about the money, but still find Dana shits on DJ even though he is one of the best lb for lb in the world. Dana will backstab anyone.

He's not at all. The point being if you think DJ and Cody can't make 125 the only other option is DJ moving up to 135 no?

Then there is no fight to be made. I think this means more to them than it does DJ.

If DJ doesn't want the fight, that's no problem. The difference between him and GSP is GSP is one of the biggest UFC draws in history.

Agreed

Let's be real, if for some reason TJ or Cody gets injured and DJ headlines the card by default don't you think it would be one of the worst PPV buy ins of all time?

No I do, but I don't they think should ever have a PPV event where this is even a possibility. Fewer events would lead to stacked cards and actually build up some excitement for the event. I don't think DJ should be a headliner.

Can we say that about GSP? Mcgregor? Hell, I have more interest in Ferguson vs Poirier as a headliner as a #1 contender to face Mcgregor/Khabib winner than DJ defending his title a record number of times.

I'll be surprised if McGregor/Khabib ever goes down tbh. None of these really interest me that much.

DJ is a talented fighter, dominant and a professional but he's got as much star appeal in the UFC as Shane Doan had in the NHL.

Don't think it's all on DJ, I think it's the division, no one wants to watch these guys, if that's the case, scrap it.

I agree, but then he shouldn't be *****ing on super fights. When Mcgregor's opponent couldn't make it he fought Diaz at welterweight and that match and the next became one of the biggest PPV buy rates in UFC history.

I agree too, but I do find he is a bit of a victim of circumstance and I think he can add value to an already good card, but he will never be a draw.

Last year people said DC was Jones' ***** and this year he's the GOAT.

People still say DC is Jones' bitch and you will always have ppl that make outlandish claims. I'm a big fan of Cormier, but I don't think he's in the running for GOAT.

 

[Kriss E]

I think they put on way too many shows which dilutes the talent, they have talent, but the big names just aren't there anymore IMO. GSP, Jones, Connor, Silva were the biggest draws. Who's the draw now? Even Rousey could draw a crowd and sell a PPV. I don't see that drawing power from too many of the current fighters. The big 4 all left a void that has yet to be filled.

Sure, GSP cherry-picked his return a little bit with Bisping, but Bisping more than held his own in MW. He was always in the top 5-10 mix his entire career.

Might just be me, but when I watch it now I find it kind of boring. I find these guys are still pretty bad strikers overall and have a hard time getting excited for any of the recent events.

Definitely less drawing power and no real superstar.

Still can't believe it's on to ultimate fighter 28....People still watch that show?

 

[Kriss E]

He's not at all. The point being if you think DJ and Cody can't make 125 the only other option is DJ moving up to 135 no?

If DJ doesn't want the fight, that's no problem. The difference between him and GSP is GSP is one of the biggest UFC draws in history.

Let's be real, if for some reason TJ or Cody gets injured and DJ headlines the card by default don't you think it would be one of the worst PPV buy ins of all time?

Can we say that about GSP? Mcgregor? Hell, I have more interest in Ferguson vs Poirier as a headliner as a #1 contender to face Mcgregor/Khabib winner than DJ defending his title a record number of times.

DJ is a talented fighter, dominant and a professional but he's got as much star appeal in the UFC as Shane Doan had in the NHL.

GSP and McGregor were major superstars. DJ will never be at their level. Most casual fans I speak too barely know him or what belt he has. When I tell them Flyweight champ, they think I'm joking. They don't even know that's a category, let alone name any other fighter that's in it.

I agree, but then he shouldn't be *****ing on super fights. When Mcgregor's opponent couldn't make it he fought Diaz at welterweight and that match and the next became one of the biggest PPV buy rates in UFC history.

Last year people said DC was Jones' ***** and this year he's the GOAT.

If you wanna sit around and beat people you already have before then sure, just don't complain about your contract if few people buy PPVs for you.

People are saying Cormier is the GOAT?

 

[Halakitlikethat]

Nate Diaz vs porier official as per Ariel helwani

 

[LyricalLyricist]

GSP and McGregor were major superstars. DJ will never be at their level. Most casual fans I speak too barely know him or what belt he has. When I tell them Flyweight champ, they think I'm joking. They don't even know that's a category, let alone name any other fighter that's in it.


People are saying Cormier is the GOAT?

While DJ will never be on their level he's not taking risks to get more fan attention either.

Cormier is one of the greatest of all time. He might even be the GOAT considering he only lost to a cheater. He's also an Olympic athlete, not just some bruiser in a gym.

I know your stance on PEDs but rules are rules and Jones broke them and has been caught twice since USADA came in. He's a joke.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

Nate Diaz vs porier official as per Ariel helwani

Poirier only doing it as money fight. He was pretty vocal about waiting for title shot but this will pay him if its true.

UFC 230 starting to look decent.

Weidman vs Rockhold

Potentially:

Branch vs Jacare
Diaz vs Poirier
Romero vs Costa(please, this would be awesome)

I would've loved if they had Woodley vs Colby on that card but guess we can't always get what we want.

I would've expected Poirier to go up against Ferguson though but my guess is Ferguson is in UFC 229 if Mcgregor and Khabib are on that card.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

People still say DC is Jones' ***** and you will always have ppl that make outlandish claims. I'm a big fan of Cormier, but I don't think he's in the running for GOAT.

I don't get this. As I told Kriss, not sure why he's not in the running.

Olympic Athlete, gold medalist at various events, 21-1 in MMA with the 1 being questionable given it's a multiple offender of PEDs in a sport with rules.

Only second person to hold two belts at same time. Soon to be the only one to defend one of them after(Mcgregor never did!).

He beat the most successful Heavyweight champ by KO in round 1.

I mean...he's pretty up there and with the last 2 fights likely being easy he'll go down 23-1 at the end.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I don't get this. As I told Kriss, not sure why he's not in the r
unning.

Olympic Athlete, gold medalist at various events, 21-1 in MMA with the 1 being questionable given it's a multiple offender of PEDs in a sport with rules.

Only second person to hold two belts at same time. Soon to be the only one to defend one of them after(Mcgregor never did!).

He beat the most successful Heavyweight champ by KO in round 1.

I mean...he's pretty up there and with the last 2 fights likely being easy he'll go down 23-1 at the end.

When judging the greatest of all-time his credentials outside of MMA are irrelevant. His victory over Stipe is impressive, but tbh Stipe was always overrated and b=never that good. The heavyweight division has been absent of talent for years, but good on Cormier for that win regardless.

He just doesn't have the names on his list that compare to other greats imo. He's got a win over gus and 40+ year old Silva on 3 days notice along with Stipe. Really I don't think he's close.

 

[Kriss E]

While DJ will never be on their level he's not taking risks to get more fan attention either.

Cormier is one of the greatest of all time. He might even be the GOAT considering he only lost to a cheater. He's also an Olympic athlete, not just some bruiser in a gym.

I know your stance on PEDs but rules are rules and Jones broke them and has been caught twice since USADA came in. He's a joke.

I think it's very ignorant to claim he's a joke, no offense. But you know my stance on PEDs as you said, so no need to dwelve much into that.
As for Cormier being the GOAT...I can't give that to him because his opponents are just not that impressive. A bunch of over the hill names like Mir, Hendo, Silva, Barnett, Big Foot. If those guys were fighting at the prime of their careers, then unquestionably he'd be the GOAT.
Him beating Miocic is legit, but the rest...it's a big ''meh'' for me. If he does more of that, then I'll put him in the conversation, but he's discussing retiring after a possible Brock fight (if he loses to Brock, will he blame roids too?)

The fact he's never been able to beat Jones too, despite what you want to label him as, he lost twice to him. I don't think Cormier is better than Jones, let alone the GOAT.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I think it's very ignorant to claim he's a joke, no offense. But you know my stance on PEDs as you said, so no need to dwelve much into that.
As for Cormier being the GOAT...I can't give that to him because his opponents are just not that impressive. A bunch of over the hill names like Mir, Hendo, Silva, Barnett, Big Foot. If those guys were fighting at the prime of their careers, then unquestionably he'd be the GOAT.
Him beating Miocic is legit, but the rest...it's a big ''meh'' for me. If he does more of that, then I'll put him in the conversation, but he's discussing retiring after a possible Brock fight (if he loses to Brock, will he blame roids too?)

The fact he's never been able to beat Jones too, despite what you want to label him as, he lost twice to him. I don't think Cormier is better than Jones, let alone the GOAT.

I pretty much agree with this, outside of Gus and Miocic, his list consists of mainly has-beens, I don't really count his losses to Jones even though I concede Jones is a better mixed martial artist, despite some of his revolting qualities.

He just doesn't have a list of fighters in their prime that can rival, gsp, jones, silva etc. A big meh indeed from me.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Nate Diaz vs. Dustin Poirier booked for UFC 230 in New York
This could be a pretty big fight if Nate's head is in the game. He hasn't fought at 155 in a while but he's a cardio freak so he should manage.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Khabib Nurmagomedov vs. Conor McGregor headlines UFC 229 in Las Vegas
This is it folks, THE biggest fight of the year.

 

[TRG]

Pisses me off he can just come back like that after what he did.

Hope the motherf***er gets wrestlef***ed into oblivion.

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Pisses me off he can just come back like that after what he did.

Hope the mother****er gets wrestle****ed into oblivion.

It could absolutely happen, Conor hasn't been in the octagon for almost 2 years now and Khabib is all wrong for him matchup wise. The Al Iaquinta fight has be a bit worried about him though, it showed that Khabib can get nervous and overwhelmed by the big occasions. Conor on the other end loves this stuff.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

When judging the greatest of all-time his credentials outside of MMA are irrelevant. His victory over Stipe is impressive, but tbh Stipe was always overrated and b=never that good. The heavyweight division has been absent of talent for years, but good on Cormier for that win regardless.

He just doesn't have the names on his list that compare to other greats imo. He's got a win over gus and 40+ year old Silva on 3 days notice along with Stipe. Really I don't think he's close.

He still beat him and everyone else, undefeated heavyweight. Two division champ.

When you have credentials outside of MMA it doesn't play into your MMA career but it sure does dispel any notion of him facing poor competition because he was facing top competition in similar sport prior.

I think it's very ignorant to claim he's a joke, no offense. But you know my stance on PEDs as you said, so no need to dwelve much into that.
As for Cormier being the GOAT...I can't give that to him because his opponents are just not that impressive. A bunch of over the hill names like Mir, Hendo, Silva, Barnett, Big Foot. If those guys were fighting at the prime of their careers, then unquestionably he'd be the GOAT.
Him beating Miocic is legit, but the rest...it's a big ''meh'' for me. If he does more of that, then I'll put him in the conversation, but he's discussing retiring after a possible Brock fight (if he loses to Brock, will he blame roids too?)

The fact he's never been able to beat Jones too, despite what you want to label him as, he lost twice to him. I don't think Cormier is better than Jones, let alone the GOAT.

Jones is a joke. I'll say it over and over. A guy who does a hit and run and leaves a pregnant woman at the scene...is a joke.

A guy busted for PEDs twice is a joke. Yeah, you're pro PED but rules are rules. If you don't play by the rules you aren't playing fair.

Jones often would tell Daniel Cormier "who's your daddy?". DC later revealed why he does it, because DC's father was murdered and Jones tries to bring it up on purpose. Jones was even informed by it from the UFC and he kept doing it. Jones is the greatest POS of all time.

As for the guys he fought, DC is 39 and winning titles. As much as you want to say over the hill it's not like he's 28 facing a 45 year old. He's getting up there in age too and still schooling guys like Volkan.

Why call Silva over the hill at the time. DC was his 2nd loss in 5 years and he was 9-1 in last 10 going into that fight.

Don't forget DC started in MMA at 30. Only started in UFC at 34. What he's done in a short time is impressive.

You may not have him as #1 and that's fine but lets be realistic.

Silva was caught with something twice...even if he last time he proved it was a 'tainted supplement'. Still, one of the best.
Jones, twice had to face USADA.

f***, I mean, Jones has more losses to USADA than DC has vs anyone in his career. He's talented but his record is now with an *.

GSP is legit...from what we know.

DJ has a lot of defenses, record breaking numbers but in such a weak division and one of the only of all time to not cross to other divisions.

There's other greats, UFC hall of fame types but are they GOAT? I'm not sure they are. The usual suspects are in the mix and DC is among the best of all time.

 

[Skip Bayless]

I think Conor will knock him the f*** out.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

He still beat him and everyone else, undefeated heavyweight. Two division champ.

When you have credentials outside of MMA it doesn't play into your MMA career but it sure does dispel any notion of him facing poor competition because he was facing top competition in similar sport prior.

No it doesn't, it may indicate that he could handle the competition, but his record is his and his competition is rather weak.

Jones is a joke. I'll say it over and over. A guy who does a hit and run and leaves a pregnant woman at the scene...is a joke.

He's a shitty human being for sure imo, but this is irrelevant..

A guy busted for PEDs twice is a joke. Yeah, you're pro PED but rules are rules. If you don't play by the rules you aren't playing fair.

I'm not pro PED, but I'm not also naive. I think 90% of the them are using. Just so happens that Cormer might be one of the few who isn't. I don't count his losses to Jones against him, but I also don't reward him for losing.

Jones often would tell Daniel Cormier "who's your daddy?". DC later revealed why he does it, because DC's father was murdered and Jones tries to bring it up on purpose. Jones was even informed by it from the UFC and he kept doing it. Jones is the greatest POS of all time.

This isn't an argument that factors in to GOAT. We've already agreed that Jones is a shitty person, this doesn't make DC's competition any better.

As for the guys he fought, DC is 39 and winning titles. As much as you want to say over the hill it's not like he's 28 facing a 45 year old. He's getting up there in age too and still schooling guys like Volkan.

Volkan, weak competition like I said

Why call Silva over the hill at the time. DC was his 2nd loss in 5 years and he was 9-1 in last 10 going into that fight.

Please dude Silva was fighting on the 3 days notice in a division above his weight class as a shell of his former self, I have hard time even counting this as a win let alone something impressive. If he didn't win this fight then he didn't belong. DC is outstanding, just not best all-time good.

Don't forget DC started in MMA at 30. Only started in UFC at 34. What he's done in a short time is impressive.

You may not have him as #1 and that's fine but lets be realistic.

Not only do I not have him #1, I do not have him top 5 all time.

Silva was caught with something twice...even if he last time he proved it was a 'tainted supplement'. Still, one of the best.
Jones, twice had to face USADA.

Most of your argument seems to be built around discrediting everyone else instead of making your case for DC. He popped, but all victories before that aren't wiped out because of it.

****, I mean, Jones has more losses to USADA than DC has vs anyone in his career. He's talented but his record is now with an *.

This still does't help DC. It's the same thing you did with Silva. Not only is he talented, imo, he is infinitely more talented than DC. Roids help or guys wouldn't be doing them, but they aren't magic pills that teach you how to fight. They assist in strength building/recovery etc, but they don't teach you to wrestle. He can do way more than DC.

GSP is legit...from what we know.

Way stiffer competition as well, took on a murderers row of WW's. He's miles ahead of DC with or without the Bisping win.

DJ has a lot of defenses, record breaking numbers but in such a weak division and one of the only of all time to not cross to other divisions.

Crossing divisions is overrated and it's almost become a gimmick. You think GSP needed to Win the middle weight title from a top5-10 MW to solidify his career? I think he was GOAT before this. The bisping fight does nothing for me, other than to say, GSP is pretty good to take a leave of absence for years to come back and win the title, but like KrissE said, Bisping was more of a paper champ than the legit MW champ. Competition is more important to me than belts.

There's other greats, UFC hall of fame types but are they GOAT? I'm not sure they are. The usual suspects are in the mix and DC is among the best of all time.

I just don't see it. He's not top 5 for me.

 

[LyricalLyricist]

No it doesn't, it may indicate that he could handle the competition, but his record is his and his competition is rather weak.

I phrased it badly. My argument is that it shows he's a top athlete so he's not just so brawler out of the street. I think it adds to his perception for sure.

He's a ****ty human being for sure imo, but this is irrelevant..

My comments on Jones' personality have nothing to do with his GOAT status. I just think he's a POS.

I don't think he's GOAT because he cheated several times. That's all.

I'm not pro PED, but I'm not also naive. I think 90% of the them are using. Just so happens that Cormer might be one of the few who isn't. I don't count his losses to Jones against him, but I also don't reward him for losing.

I don't see how calling a 2 division champ who is part of the 10% who aren't using a bad thing for DC though. If you feel he's not using and one of the few who isn't AND has a record like that then...it helps his status no?

This isn't an argument that factors in to GOAT. We've already agreed that Jones is a ****ty person, this doesn't make DC's competition any better.

As I said, just saying he's a POS

As you said earlier though if you don't count his loss(not losses) to Jones against him, DC is undefeated then.

Volkan, weak competition like I said

Volkan moved up too soon but let's be honest. He knocked out the current #5 and #10 within a minute. At the time they were likely ranked higher. Say whatever you like but there is a little credibility associated with going on a string of early KOs.

Please dude Silva was fighting on the 3 days notice in a division above his weight class as a shell of his former self, I have hard time even counting this as a win let alone something impressive. If he didn't win this fight then he didn't belong. DC is outstanding, just not best all-time good.

I meant bigfoot silva in the heavyweight grandprix where DC joined short notice and won entire thing. Silva was well regarded back then.

Not only do I not have him #1, I do not have him top 5 all time.

Without actually putting it in order, who are 5 or so names you have above DC?

Most of your argument seems to be built around discrediting everyone else instead of making your case for DC. He popped, but all victories before that aren't wiped out because of it.

I discredit Jones, that's it. Before the fight DC said he thinks Jones was on steroids his entire career except vs a few guys like ovince after USADA came in. Jones pulled a fit about it and was livid then got popped for a second time. Maybe DC was right.

There is something to be said about Jones' character and being caught which is another reason I brought up his attitude outside of the octagon. When you regularly do hard drugs, be intoxicated and drive, do hit and runs, get caught twice with PEDs and just act like an asshole in general. Guess what? This guy is taking cocaine during his fight camp, am I supposed to believe he's careful with what he puts in his body or is someone who follows rules?

C'mon. Jones is only guy I talk shit about and he deserves it. He's MEGA talented but still gets popped. It's ridiculous.

This still does't help DC. It's the same thing you did with Silva. Not only is he talented, imo, he is infinitely more talented than DC. Roids help or guys wouldn't be doing them, but they aren't magic pills that teach you how to fight. They assist in strength building/recovery etc, but they don't teach you to wrestle. He can do way more than DC.

As I said, MEGA talented guy which makes his decision to be a cheater even worse. It won't turn you into a MMA beast but as you said it helps physically.

Way stiffer competition as well, took on a murderers row of WW's. He's miles ahead of DC with or without the Bisping win.

Agreed but it also helps GSP's case that he was in UFC longer and faced that competition since a younger age.

I have GSP above DC in all time rankings. I think even DC said "Put GSP and DJ above me and I will not argue with it" because he has a tremendous amount of respect for them.

Crossing divisions is overrated and it's almost become a gimmick. You think GSP needed to Win the middle weight title from a top5-10 MW to solidify his career? I think he was GOAT before this. The bisping fight does nothing for me, other than to say, GSP is pretty good to take a leave of absence for years to come back and win the title, but like KrissE said, Bisping was more of a paper champ than the legit MW champ. Competition is more important to me than belts.

No, I think GSP doing that only helps. I think GSP coming back after 4 years off to go into title fight and win...helps. Prior to GSP loss Bisping was 30-7. Not earth shattering but he's got most wins in UFC history I believe and he will likely go into the UFC hall of fame. He's no prodigy or anything like that but I think he's a little underrated, had a solid career.

I just don't see it. He's not top 5 for me.

As I said, depends who you have in top 5. I tend to put Jones and Silva on * status now.

 

[Fazkovsky]

No way alvarez beats kovalev

 

[DavePeak]

No way alvarez beats kovalev

That would be a surprise, to say the least. I wish him well for the fight, but the Krusher is powerful!

 

[Pompeius Magnus]

Can't really see Alvarez doing much to cause Kovalev trouble, he doesn't have the power to keep him honest.