OT: General OT MEGATHREAD (No Politics) Pt. 2 - Read OP before posting

[Ajax1995]

“Gassed” is being used a lot lately instead of just tear gas. Interesting.

Well if you want to paint the picture of the police as Nazis then using the term gassed instead of tear gassed absolutely helps promote that image.

There is no intention for intellectual honesty but instead to color your opponents in the worst light possible to then be able to rationalize any behavior you choose to take regardless of the consequences.

 

[Ajax1995]

I think you have a couple of different groups at these protests. The large majority are the protestors who abide by curfews and are there to demonstrate peacefully and vocally, as is their Constitutional right. Then you have three groups that f*** everything up: (1) Antifa or other far-left groups, whose mantras largely include destruction of property, arson, and anarchy, (2) Alt-right groups who disguise themselves as protestors but do a lot of the destruction and looting to delegitimize the protestors and portray the protestors as violent anarchists, and (3) random people from the neighborhood who love themselves an opportunity to loot a store or throw a rock at police.

I think it's unfair to say that the destruction of property and the violence undermines the message because I think those doing the destruction aren't interested in or completely disagree with the message that's being delivered.

Any chance of you giving us a ballpark breakdown percentage wise of those 3 destructive groups? In your opinion of course.

 

[twabby]

I think you have a couple of different groups at these protests. The large majority are the protestors who abide by curfews and are there to demonstrate peacefully and vocally, as is their Constitutional right. Then you have three groups that f*** everything up: (1) Antifa or other far-left groups, whose mantras largely include destruction of property, arson, and anarchy, (2) Alt-right groups who disguise themselves as protestors but do a lot of the destruction and looting to delegitimize the protestors and portray the protestors as violent anarchists, and (3) random people from the neighborhood who love themselves an opportunity to loot a store or throw a rock at police.

I think it's unfair to say that the destruction of property and the violence undermines the message because I think those doing the destruction aren't interested in or completely disagree with the message that's being delivered.

I wanted to address this post specifically.

Blaming outside groups like Antifa (whose mantra is standing up to fascists with force if necessary, not property destruction) and alt-right groups for the destruction and looting is an age-old tactic used by those in power to deny authenticity from the aggrieved and to try to divide and conquer a movement, in this case mainly people of color, younger people, and organized groups like BLM. Certainly some people are opportunistic and certainly some far-right groups like white supremacists are trying to provoke, but by in large the destruction is caused by the protesters.

Don’t Fall for the Myth of the “Outside Agitator” in Racial Justice Protests
We Have Seen the ‘Outside Agitator’ and He Is Us

People are rightfully pissed off. Peaceful protests have been tried for decades now, and we are no closer to true racial justice than we were in the 1960s. People of color still bear the brunt of the law enforcement and of our hyper-capitalist society and things are only getting worse. What do you expect pissed off people to do? Continue to carry signs and march? Vote for one of two parties who serve capital and not the people?

Peaceful protests have been tried. They have failed. Look throughout history: every major victory for liberty and justice has been gained by using violence to some extent. I'm not specifically calling for violence but I'm also not going to condemn anyone who feels like they are pushed to the brink.

 

[hb12xchamps]

I wanted to address this post specifically.

Blaming outside groups like Antifa (whose mantra is standing up to fascists with force if necessary, not property destruction) and alt-right groups for the destruction and looting is an age-old tactic used by those in power to deny authenticity from the aggrieved and to try to divide and conquer a movement, in this case mainly people of color, younger people, and organized groups like BLM. Certainly some people are opportunistic and certainly some far-right groups like white supremacists are trying to provoke, but by in large the destruction is caused by the protesters.

I really don't have a dog in the fight, nor do I really now that much about Antifa, but the Antifa wikipedia page literally says in the first paragraph that they use physical violence and destruction of property if necessary.

The antifa (/ænˈtiːfə, ˈæntiˌfɑː/)[1] movement in the United States is a militant, predominantly left-wing, anti-fascist political activist movement[7][12] that comprises autonomous activist groups that aim to achieve their political objectives through the use of direct action rather than through policy reform.[13][14][15] Activists engage in varied protest tactics, including digital activism, property damage and physical violence, and harassment against those whom they identify as fascist, racist, or on the far-right.[23]

 

[twabby]

I really don't have a dog in the fight, nor do I really now that much about Antifa, but the Antifa wikipedia page literally says in the first paragraph that they use physical violence and destruction of property if necessary.

I guess I could have been clearer. Yes antifa uses aggressive tactics but their main goal isn’t to destroy shit, it’s to eliminate fascism. Antifa isn’t just some third party to these protests looking to break shit because they think it’s fun, they are a primary component to the protests and certainly not an outside agitator.

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

I wanted to address this post specifically.

Blaming outside groups like Antifa (whose mantra is standing up to fascists with force if necessary, not property destruction) and alt-right groups for the destruction and looting is an age-old tactic used by those in power to deny authenticity from the aggrieved and to try to divide and conquer a movement, in this case mainly people of color, younger people, and organized groups like BLM. Certainly some people are opportunistic and certainly some far-right groups like white supremacists are trying to provoke, but by in large the destruction is caused by the protesters.

Don’t Fall for the Myth of the “Outside Agitator” in Racial Justice Protests
We Have Seen the ‘Outside Agitator’ and He Is Us

People are rightfully pissed off. Peaceful protests have been tried for decades now, and we are no closer to true racial justice than we were in the 1960s. People of color still bear the brunt of the law enforcement and of our hyper-capitalist society and things are only getting worse. What do you expect pissed off people to do? Continue to carry signs and march? Vote for one of two parties who serve capital and not the people?

Peaceful protests have been tried. They have failed. Look throughout history: every major victory for liberty and justice has been gained by using violence to some extent. I'm not specifically calling for violence but I'm also not going to condemn anyone who feels like they are pushed to the brink.

Edit: deleted my comments -- don't want to continue this debate.

 

[g00n]

Well if you want to paint the picture of the police as Nazis then using the term gassed instead of tear gassed absolutely helps promote that image.

There is no intention for intellectual honesty but instead to color your opponents in the worst light possible to then be able to rationalize any behavior you choose to take regardless of the consequences.

Wait, so you're saying troops in riot gear that are beating people in the streets and shooting people with rubber bullets on their own property doesn't become objectionable until you remove "tear" from "tear gas"? As though people are being led to believe protesters are being shoved into gas chambers, or something?

Help me out here.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I think you have a couple of different groups at these protests. The large majority are the protestors who abide by curfews and are there to demonstrate peacefully and vocally, as is their Constitutional right. Then you have three groups that f*** everything up: (1) Antifa or other far-left groups, whose mantras largely include destruction of property, arson, and anarchy, (2) Alt-right groups who disguise themselves as protestors but do a lot of the destruction and looting to delegitimize the protestors and portray the protestors as violent anarchists, and (3) random people from the neighborhood who love themselves an opportunity to loot a store or throw a rock at police.

I think it's unfair to say that the destruction of property and the violence undermines the message because I think those doing the destruction aren't interested in or completely disagree with the message that's being delivered.

The unfair part is that these destructive people are indeed undermining the message.

Nobody has an ID card that says what cause they’re supporting during their respective civil disobedience jaunts, so yeah when the news shows mobs of all races destroying things....the message is confused at best.

 

[usiel]

The property destruction stuff one has to look out for the Anarchist groups hijacking a peaceful protest and start destroying property. This has nothing to do antifa.

 

[Ajax1995]

Wait, so you're saying troops in riot gear that are beating people in the streets and shooting people with rubber bullets on their own property doesn't become objectionable until you remove "tear" from "tear gas"? As though people are being led to believe protesters are being shoved into gas chambers, or something?

Help me out here.

Are we really going to chicken and egg this garbage? When people are smashing, burning, and looting I really couldn’t care less what law enforcement is doing. Are some innocents caught in the BS? Sure but there isn’t much that can be done about that IMO and frankly it is what it is. How are the police supposed to act during riots?

Someone please put an end to this ‘nonpolitical’ discussion...

 

[g00n]

Are we really going to chicken and egg this garbage? When people are smashing, burning, and looting I really couldn’t care less what law enforcement is doing. Are some innocents caught in the BS? Sure but there isn’t much that can be done about that IMO and frankly it is what it is. How are the police supposed to act during riots?

Someone please put an end to this ‘nonpolitical’ discussion...

I think this is an oversimplification. "Innocent" people tend to run away from the violent acts and the crimes, or they try to stop them. Police have protocols for handling those things. You SHOULD care how they behave in doing their jobs, that's the whole point of this. Don't like the rules of engagement, DON'T BE A COP.

The issue with innocents being caught up in is just how much of this seems directed at peaceful people who are doing nothing wrong, not collateral damage while fighting real crime. Do you disagree that such things are happening? Or do you think it's all some ball of who-gives-a-shit?

Back to the point, there is no need to engage in some ridiculous conspiracy to portray brutal shock troops as nazis just by saying "gassed". That's just some paranoid spin coming from people who create paranoid spin for a living.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Rules of engagement is an interesting choice of words to use.

One side has rules to follow and the other doesn’t. At some point things will get to a tipping point and the side not following rules will long for the days of tear gas.

 

[Ajax1995]

I think this is an oversimplification. "Innocent" people tend to run away from the violent acts and the crimes, or they try to stop them. Police have protocols for handling those things. You SHOULD care how they behave in doing their jobs, that's the whole point of this. Don't like the rules of engagement, DON'T BE A COP.

The issue with innocents being caught up in is just how much of this seems directed at peaceful people who are doing nothing wrong, not collateral damage while fighting real crime. Do you disagree that such things are happening? Or do you think it's all some ball of who-gives-a-shit?

Back to the point, there is no need to engage in some ridiculous conspiracy to portray brutal shock troops as nazis just by saying "gassed". That's just some paranoid spin coming from people who create paranoid spin for a living.

I find your idealism incredibly naive.

And no I absolutely don’t give a krap about any of this.

 

[g00n]

I find your idealism incredibly naive.

And no I absolutely don’t give a krap about any of this.

It's not idealism to recognize the ability of some people and countries to control themselves in X situation, and asking why others can't do that.

 

[g00n]

Rules of engagement is an interesting choice of words to use.

One side has rules to follow and the other doesn’t. At some point things will get to a tipping point and the side not following rules will long for the days of tear gas.

Again, if you don't want to do the job and follow the rules, don't take the job. Do you think it's unfair that police aren't allowed to just do whatever they want? Are you advocating a police state, then?

This is not happening in a vacuum. The population is reacting to the police, not just the other way around. We have seen plenty of examples of doing what you're told and still being beaten, shot, killed.

Also don't any of you assume I'm anti-cop and advocating free reign for the protesters. There are a lot of complicated issues and factions creating a fog of war here. I'm not in favor of looting or senseless destruction. I believe it gives critics some way to legitimize their arguments and provides excuses to invoke 200 year old laws of martial control.

Better to be tactical and focused. If you've exhausted all peaceful and legal options then looting is just angry stealing. Burning stores is just hostile arson. "The system" is not a monolithic construct where you strike any part of the whole and the damage to the corrupt parts is felt proportionally.

History tells us you have to punish the perpetrators to send the most effective message. This used to mean mobs dragging the guilty into the streets themselves. The modern equivalent would simply be holding those responsible accountable for their actions.

Is that "naive" or "idealistic"? Or is that justice?

 

[Ajax1995]

Screw your ‘justice.’ It’s all a bunch of BS based on a BS narrative.

Take care of your family, raise your kids to respect authority and to focus on education and never ever hobble them by letting them think of themselves as victims. The rest will take care of itself.

 

[g00n]

Screw your ‘justice.’ It’s all a bunch of BS based on a BS narrative.

Take care of your family, raise your kids to respect authority and to focus on education and never ever hobble them by letting them think of themselves as victims. The rest will take care of itself.

Justice is a legal concept and term and it's the foundation of this country. It's not optional. It's in the flag pledge. Our laws are based on it. Society collapses without it.

Some people don't have lives that allow them to just keep their heads down and "the rest will take care of itself".

BTW do you really "respect authority" of every kind? Do everything the government/cops tell you to do? I seem to recall you had some unkind words for the government in the past.

 

[g00n]

Mapping Police Violence

Interesting stats. You can enter a PD further down the page and see their individual numbers.

 

[Ajax1995]

Justice is a legal concept and term and it's the foundation of this country. It's not optional. It's in the flag pledge. Our laws are based on it. Society collapses without it.

Some people don't have lives that allow them to just keep their heads down and "the rest will take care of itself".

BTW do you really "respect authority" of every kind? Do everything the government/cops tell you to do? I seem to recall you had some unkind words for the government in the past.

The police officer has been charged with murder the last I checked. What more would you like at this point?

And do I do what a police officer tells me? Absolutely, no matter how BS I think it might be. If I genuinely think it is unjust I’ll fight it another way. But I will definitely live either way.

Don’t fight with law enforcement officers. Don’t resist. Get in the back of patrol car, even if you claim to be claustrophobic. Live. Live. Live. And then find a Mark Geragos type lawyer and sue them if it is indeed unjust. But again, most importantly live.

 

[g00n]

The police officer has been charged with murder the last I checked. What more would you like at this point?

And do I do what a police officer tells me? Absolutely, no matter how BS I think it might be. If I genuinely think it is unjust I’ll fight it another way. But I will definitely live either way.

Don’t fight with law enforcement officers. Don’t resist. Get in the back of patrol car, even if you claim to be claustrophobic. Live. Live. Live. And then find a Mark Geragos type lawyer and sue them if it is indeed unjust. But again, most importantly live.

The other police were complicit in the murder and should be charged. The charges against the killer are also too light.

This is also not about one case. Obeying police doesn't mean you won't be hurt. Thinking every instance of police brutality is the result of resisting arrest or disobeying a reasonable police order is what I'd call "naive".

Black people suspected of minor offenses or just sitting in their cars get choked out or shot. Meanwhile white people who shoot up something like a black church get negotiated with and we're told to not "rush to judgment". It's an obvious double standard.

And you want to talk about "narrative"? The same people who parrot the authoritarian script you just posted will turn around and espouse the exact opposite sentiment depending on the circumstances, whether it's refusing to wear masks, or be disarmed in public, or stay quarantined, etc. "FREEDOM!" Whether or not the government and LEOs can be trusted hinges on whether or not they WANT to obey the law.

 

[g00n]

Frankly it's a little astonishing that we have people here advocating free reign in law enforcement and scoffing at the idea of equal justice. I'm not sure how any American can defend that.

Cops have a hard job. There's no doubt. But so do a lot of people and if you can't hack it GET ANOTHER JOB. The problem is the union keeps letting violent, racist, unhinged officers back into the fold when their CBA's are rolled over. So the officers on the scene either don't care about the consequences of doing nothing or else they're afraid of making things difficult for their fraternal "brother".

This is what has to change. When someone is being choked to death, STOP. Stop the other guy from doing it. Just stop the UNNECESSARY force.

Is that so hard to understand?

Here's some data and real actionable guidelines for how the better PDs have reformed:

 

[g00n]

And I'll say again, I'm generally a law and order guy. I have cop friends, and other connections I can't discuss. I disagree with the looting and any unrelated, non-strategic violence that has nothing to do with actual self-defense. I sympathize with the difficulties of the profession and realize it's very easy to pass judgment when we're not the ones on the front lines.

But that also applies in the other direction. It's very easy to say "just obey orders" or "stop being a victim" but living the life of another is a completely different proposition.

Sometimes force is necessary. The problem is force becoming the default, or being applied in a racially discriminatory manner, or being disproportionate to the crime/situation.

That's the reality on the ground.

 

[Ajax1995]

The other police were complicit in the murder and should be charged. The charges against the killer are also too light.

This is also not about one case. Obeying police doesn't mean you won't be hurt. Thinking every instance of police brutality is the result of resisting arrest or disobeying a reasonable police order is what I'd call "naive".

Black people suspected of minor offenses or just sitting in their cars get choked out or shot. Meanwhile white people who shoot up something like a black church get negotiated with and we're told to not "rush to judgment". It's an obvious double standard.

And you want to talk about "narrative"? The same people who parrot the authoritarian script you just posted will turn around and espouse the exact opposite sentiment depending on the circumstances, whether it's refusing to wear masks, or be disarmed in public, or stay quarantined, etc. "FREEDOM!" Whether or not the government and LEOs can be trusted hinges on whether or not they WANT to obey the law.

Do a little research. White people get executed by the police all the time. Shockingly nobody knows about it because it doesn’t fit the narrative.

Go watch Daniel Shaver beg for his life in New Mexico before being executed. It is unbelievably disturbing. Or watch Dillon Taylor in Salt Lake City gunned down for absolutely no reason. If these guys were minorities the rioting would make this BS look like a game of candyland. But of course they don’t advance the narrative so nobody knows about them.

So stop with your cop are all racists and it’s open season on minorities BS.

My white privilege is the knowledge that cops in general are assholes. They treat everyone who isn’t doing what they are supposed to like krap. Do what they tell you and it drastically increases your odds of survival. Don’t and whatever results is frankly on you.

 

[g00n]

Do a little research. White people get executed by the police all the time. Shockingly nobody knows about it because it doesn’t fit the narrative.

Go watch Daniel Shaver beg for his life in New Mexico before being executed. It is unbelievably disturbing. Or watch Dillon Taylor in Salt Lake City gunned down for absolutely no reason. If these guys were minorities the rioting would make this BS look like a game of candyland. But of course they don’t advance the narrative so nobody knows about them.

So stop with your cop are all racists and it’s open season on minorities BS.

My white privilege is the knowledge that cops in general are assholes. They treat everyone who isn’t doing what they are supposed to like krap. Do what they tell you and it drastically increases your odds of survival. Don’t and whatever results is frankly on you.

Don't put words in my mouth regarding "all racist" and read a little better, including following the link I posted:
"Black people were 24% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population."

And when it does happen the search immediately begins for some justification (weed, running, whatever).

Do your own research and this time pay attention. Your white privilege as you say is the belief that your experiences and outcomes are the same for everyone.

By your own admission those people you named were either doing something wrong, or were shot by overzealous cops. If they were doing something wrong they deserved what they got per your logic. If they were shot by overzealous cops then why in the world are you defending the police here? You would then have to add to that issue the statistics that have blacks comprising twice their expected number of presumably random, accidental killings.

Think about it.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

On a lighter note.



Gift cards for all!