OT: General OT MEGATHREAD (No Politics) Pt. 2 - Read OP before posting

[Jacoby4HOF66]

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Do a little research. White people get executed by the police all the time. Shockingly nobody knows about it because it doesn’t fit the narrative.

Go watch Daniel Shaver beg for his life in New Mexico before being executed. It is unbelievably disturbing. Or watch Dillon Taylor in Salt Lake City gunned down for absolutely no reason. If these guys were minorities the rioting would make this BS look like a game of candyland. But of course they don’t advance the narrative so nobody knows about them.

So stop with your cop are all racists and it’s open season on minorities BS.

My white privilege is the knowledge that cops in general are assholes. They treat everyone who isn’t doing what they are supposed to like krap. Do what they tell you and it drastically increases your odds of survival. Don’t and whatever results is frankly on you.

I decided I wasn't going to engage in this debate but it's tough reading what you write. No one is saying that cops don't do bad shit to white people. No one is saying all cops are racist, though too many of them are, and the ones that aren't don't sufficiently root them out and remove them from the force. You are putting words in people's mouths and contorting what they are saying to support your own feelings.

If you actually believe that people of color aren't targeted, profiled, and killed by police at an exponentially higher rate than white people then it's not the rest of us that need to do a little research. And one thing you left out is that people who kill white people face justice (the legal kind, where a court charges and convicts them) at a much, much higher rate than perpetrators who kill black people. It took two months for those former cops in Georgia to be arrested for murdering Ahmaud Aubrey who was literally just out for a jog when he was chased down and executed, and they were only arrested after we saw the video. People are marching, and in some cases rioting, because they're tired of it and they want everyone to know they're not going to accept it any more, and it's leading to unprecedented responses by civic and city leaders.

I don't get why it's so hard for people to acknowledge that this is the reality of the country we live in. It shouldn't be an affront to anyone to acknowledge what is factually true, even if it's something uncomfortable and something we don't want to admit. And your privilege isn't your knowledge (or assumption) that cops in general are assholes, it's that you think everything you wrote after that sentence is true.

Here's an article on the Daniel Shaver incident, for anyone who is interested in understanding how this is not an apples to apples comparison.

 

[Ajax1995]

"Black people were 24% of those killed despite being only 13% of the population”

Is the argument here that people should be killed by the police at exactly the same rate as they make up the population? If so that is incredibly absurd and you know it.

Since women make up 51% of the population should 51% be people killed by the police be women? Of course not because they statistically commit significantly less crime than men do.

What about age ranges? Should people in the 50-70 age range be killed by police at the same rate they occur in the general population? No? Why not? Same argument.

Why do 18-39 year old males of all races get killed by police at a significantly higher rate than they occur in the population? Gee I don’t know. Because they commit the lion’s share of the crime? Maybe because the police are ageists...?

This is an economic thing not a race thing. Do poor whites get killed by the police a significantly higher rate than middle or upper class whites? Yes? I wonder why...?

 

[g00n]

Is the argument here that people should be killed by the police at exactly the same rate as they make up the population? If so that is incredibly absurd and you know it.

Since women make up 51% of the population should 51% be people killed by the police be women? Of course not because they statistically commit significantly less crime than men do.

What about age ranges? Should people in the 50-70 age range be killed by police at the same rate they occur in the general population? No? Why not? Same argument.

Why do 18-39 year old males of all races get killed by police at a significantly higher rate than they occur in the population? Gee I don’t know. Because they commit the lion’s share of the crime? Maybe because the police are ageists...?

This is an economic thing not a race thing. Do poor whites get killed by the police a significantly higher rate than middle or upper class whites? Yes? I wonder why...?

Heard all this before. It's a trope.

Systemic racism means crime statistics used by people like yourself are going to over represent black crime and under report white crime. It's a circular argument. Prejudice in the system overstates black crime, which leads to prejudice and tendency to profile/convict/report, which leads to arguments like yours that excuse the stats, which leads to more prejudice in the system.

Read the exec summary:

Race and Punishment: Racial Perceptions of Crime and Support for Punitive Policies | The Sentencing Project

You are essentially saying black people are, by nature or whatever your excuse may be, several times more likely to be criminals. In particular they're somehow more likely to violate your maxim for safely dealing with police than whites at a much, much higher rate.

Why do you think that is? If it were socioeconomic like you claim, then why aren't poor whites being killed by police 5-7 times more than blacks?

 

[Ajax1995]

Poorer people commit crime at a higher rate than more affluent people. Do you disagree?

A higher percentage of black people are poor compared to white people. Do you disagree?

Thus a higher percentage of black people commit crimes. NOT because they are black but because they are poor.

Police go where the crime is, and rightly so IMO, which in general is the poorer areas of town.

So if you want to ignore obvious non race based reasons for those numbers and decide it is 100% about race then I’m not sure where to go with this. Realistically it is probably somewhere in the middle. I’ll concede that. I don’t have much confidence you would though.

 

[g00n]

Poorer people commit crime at a higher rate than more affluent people. Do you disagree?

A higher percentage of black people are poor compared to white people. Do you disagree?

Thus a higher percentage of black people commit crimes. NOT because they are black but because they are poor.

Police go where the crime is, and rightly so IMO, which in general is the poorer areas of town.

So if you want to ignore obvious non race based reasons for those numbers and decide it is 100% about race then I’m not sure where to go with this. Realistically it is probably somewhere in the middle. I’ll concede that. I don’t have much confidence you would though.

You want me to concede to a middle ground fallacy? Pass.

Poverty Facts | Poverty USA

The country is 73% white and 12.7% white.

10.1% of that 73% of whites are in poverty.
20.8% of that 12.7% of blacks are in poverty.

Which number do you think is going to be bigger?

Whites in America: ~234,370,000
Blacks in America: ~41,610,000

23.67 million whites in poverty
8.65 million blacks in poverty

So tell me again how there are several times as many blacks as whites who are poor, and that's why the crime rates are higher, and the murder by cop rates are so much higher.

The reality is there are nearly 3 times as many poor white people but blacks are 3 times more likely to be killed by cops, even unarmed. That is way, WAY out of proportion.

Your assumption about poverty and race dovetailing with the murder-by-cop and crime rates is inaccurate.

Did you read the links I posted. They explain your misconceptions.

 

[g00n]

3 more cops charged in George Floyd death, other officer's murder charge upgraded, Sen. Klobuchar says

 

[g00n]

It took the State AG just a few days to do the right thing. What was the problem with the County??

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Goon you post a lot of text and a lot of pretty pictures, but just as with any information source, how do we know any of it’s actually accurate?

Fixing the police forces around the nation is no simple wave of the hand “if it’s too hard, get another job”. That’s a naive as hell statement. Look at the police recruits and the background of where many themselves come from. Many ex-military, no education beyond HS, many from middle class to poor backgrounds. I’d bet police recruiting and getting quality candidates has never been tougher, even as they have relaxed some of the archaic hiring criteria for entry like prior drug use, tattoos, facial hair, etc....

 

[g00n]

Goon you post a lot of text and a lot of pretty pictures, but just as with any information source, how do we know any of it’s actually accurate?

Fixing the police forces around the nation is no simple wave of the hand “if it’s too hard, get another job”. That’s a naive as hell statement. Look at the police recruits and the background of where many themselves come from. Many ex-military, no education beyond HS, many from middle class to poor backgrounds. I’d bet police recruiting and getting quality candidates has never been tougher, even as they have relaxed some of the archaic hiring criteria for entry like prior drug use, tattoos, facial hair, etc....

Follow the links. Sources are listed. Population data is everywhere.

It's not naive. Can't do your job, find another job. I also posted a detailed, fact/data-based list of what's already worked at PDs around the country. It's in the tweet.

 

[g00n]

I will add, if you can't argue in front of people don't be a lawyer. If you don't like the sight of blood don't be a doctor. If you're afraid of heights don't be a pilot.

If you can't control your temper and operate within the laws while respecting the citizenry don't be a cop.

It IS that simple. If we're going to point to all the good cops and say "it's only a few bad apples" then why make the "take what you can get" recruitment excuse? Clearly SOME people can handle the job while others can't.

So the practical thing is to stop hiring people who can't do the job. And if they show they can't handle it after being hired, get rid of them. No more union life lines.

 

[Ajax1995]

You want me to concede to a middle ground fallacy? Pass.

View attachment 348710

Poverty Facts | Poverty USA

The country is 73% white and 12.7% white.

10.1% of that 73% of whites are in poverty.
20.8% of that 12.7% of blacks are in poverty.

Which number do you think is going to be bigger?

Whites in America: ~234,370,000
Blacks in America: ~41,610,000

23.67 million whites in poverty
8.65 million blacks in poverty

So tell me again how there are several times as many blacks as whites who are poor, and that's why the crime rates are higher, and the murder by cop rates are so much higher.

The reality is there are nearly 3 times as many poor white people but blacks are 3 times more likely to be killed by cops, even unarmed. That is way, WAY out of proportion.

View attachment 348712


Your assumption about poverty and race dovetailing with the murder-by-cop and crime rates is inaccurate.

View attachment 348713

Did you read the links I posted. They explain your misconceptions.

I don’t think those numbers show as clearly what you think they do.

You are using strict poverty numbers, which is not in anyway what I’m saying, just run of the mill poor. But even by using your number that accounts for a 2x difference between black and white killed by cops number and more than all of of unarmed one. Any chance if change it to just poor it accounts for the full 3x number? I think it would.

 

[g00n]

I don’t think those numbers show as clearly what you think they do.

You are using strict poverty numbers, which is not in anyway what I’m saying, just run of the mill poor. But even by using your number that accounts for a 2x difference between black and white killed by cops number and more than all of of unarmed one. Any chance if change it to just poor it accounts for the full 3x number? I think it would.

I don't think you did the math right. Check again. I spelled it out for you.

And why is there any reason to believe that the next economic tier up isn't similarly distributed? There will still be FAR more white people in that class than blacks due to population levels, but the rates of killing blacks persist and are well out of proportion to the demographics.

Several times more lower class whites than blacks, yet several times more blacks being killed by cops. Your "socioeconomics rather than racism" theory doesn't hold up.

 

[g00n]

Ajax are you going to read the links I posted? Particularly the study about how crime stats and perceptions are skewed?

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Follow the links. Sources are listed. Population data is everywhere.

It's not naive. Can't do your job, find another job. I also posted a detailed, fact/data-based list of what's already worked at PDs around the country. It's in the tweet.

If not naive, extremely simplistic.

we would have very few cops under your plan lol.....retraining is the only real option for the large majority of police forces. Police recruiting is already down 60%+ depending on who you believe. You can’t just waive your hand and replace them. I’d bet you’re looking at a 10 year process to truly reshape the core of the national police force, so yeah tinkering with policy, HR/Union issues, threat of Federal oversite, not saying those shouldn’t be done, but they need to age out a large portion of old mentality cops too IMO.

Tough to replace when recruit options are tragically low.

 

[g00n]

If not naive, extremely simplistic.

we would have very few cops under your plan lol.....retraining is the only real option for the large majority of police forces. Police recruiting is already down 60%+ depending on who you believe. You can’t just waive your hand and replace them. I’d bet you’re looking at a 10 year process to truly reshape the core of the national police force, so yeah tinkering with policy, HR/Union issues, threat of Federal oversite, not saying those shouldn’t be done, but they need to age out a large portion of old mentality cops too IMO.

Tough to replace when recruit options are tragically low.

And the cost of doing nothing is....

 

[kicksavedave]

And the cost of doing nothing is....

Riots every 5-10 years, getting progressively worse each time.... so yeah, we NEED to do something about this as a country. The first step to solving any problem though is admitting there actually is a problem... so long as half the country thinks there is no problem, solutions will be hard to come by.

One thing I will add, you cannot say "its just a few bad apples" and then simultaneously say its difficult to fix. Several cities and some states have implemented new laws that govern police interactions. There is a list of standard rules like "Choke holds not allowed", and "Officers must intervene if another officer is violating the rules", both of which would have saved Mr Floyd's life. There are more rules and they seem to be making a difference, such as "lethal force must be the last resort not the first" and "No shooting at moving vehicles or escaping non violent detainees, which both would have saved several lives recently. Finally, mistakes happen, bad apples exist and will slip through any screening. But systemically covering for them, hiding them, overlooking multiple complaints about the same officers, is a big part of the problem that persists. Cops take care of Cops, which is to be expected of any fraternity, but proper legislation can make bad apples properly accountable for these sort of things.

This cannot be eliminated entirely, but we can make steps toward justice, and we need to. The cost of doing nothing is... Revolution! Even if not every revolution ends in a whole new country. Most revolutions are violently put down, like in Syria, but that's where we are headed if we don't seek justice as a people.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Alrighty then.

 

[kicksavedave]

Alrighty then.

Could have happened to anyone...

 

[shtorm2005]

Riots every 5-10 years, getting progressively worse each time.... so yeah, we NEED to do something about this as a country. The first step to solving any problem though is admitting there actually is a problem... so long as half the country thinks there is no problem, solutions will be hard to come by.

One thing I will add, you cannot say "its just a few bad apples" and then simultaneously say its difficult to fix. Several cities and some states have implemented new laws that govern police interactions. There is a list of standard rules like "Choke holds not allowed", and "Officers must intervene if another officer is violating the rules", both of which would have saved Mr Floyd's life. There are more rules and they seem to be making a difference, such as "lethal force must be the last resort not the first" and "No shooting at moving vehicles or escaping non violent detainees, which both would have saved several lives recently. Finally, mistakes happen, bad apples exist and will slip through any screening. But systemically covering for them, hiding them, overlooking multiple complaints about the same officers, is a big part of the problem that persists. Cops take care of Cops, which is to be expected of any fraternity, but proper legislation can make bad apples properly accountable for these sort of things.

This cannot be eliminated entirely, but we can make steps toward justice, and we need to. The cost of doing nothing is... Revolution! Even if not every revolution ends in a whole new country. Most revolutions are violently put down, like in Syria, but that's where we are headed if we don't seek justice as a people.

Can you really do something? Because it's mostly poor ppl who riots, average and rich ppl have too much to lose. How do you eliminate poverty if these ppl don't want to study and get a better job? They're waiting to get everything for free because they think others discriminate them for their color, while it's mostly for their behavior. It's up to them to change. You're trying to change a whole culture based on blaming everyone else except themselves. Good luck with that.

 

[g00n]

Yikes

 

[AlexBrovechkin8]

Can you really do something? Because it's mostly poor ppl who riots, average and rich ppl have too much to lose. How do you eliminate poverty if these ppl don't want to study and get a better job? They're waiting to get everything for free because they think others discriminate them for their color, while it's mostly for their behavior. It's up to them to change. You're trying to change a whole culture based on blaming everyone else except themselves. Good luck with that.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]

Watch till the end, the man speaks the truth.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

And the cost of doing nothing is....

Of course (eye roll), because I said do nothing.

 

[Jacoby4HOF66]