GDT: Game #13 -- Wed Feb 13, 2013 - Blues @ Red Wings - 7:30 p.m.| NBCSN, TSN2

[SoupNazi]

Kronwall is on the ice for nearly EVERY goal scored against. Let me repeat: EVERY GOAL SCORED AGAINST. I think Kronwall is a -6 after tonights game (on the ice for 2 goals against). Kronwall is an overpaid BUM!

Quincey wasn't on the ice for any goal and is a +5.

Math, try it.

Plus/minus is a flawed stat.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

any opinions?

I think it's fine. Datsyuk is the Wings' best player on the boards anyway.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Plus/minus is a flawed stat.

True, but a good deal of those minuses were his fault. He wasnt on the other end of the ice when the goal was scored. He was directly responsible for the puck getting in the net on numerous occasions this year.

 

[Winger98]

If you're asking me whether to give Tatar or Cleary 18 mins a night, I'm going with Tatar and it's not close. Especially in a game where the offense from the top 2 lines is non-existent for the last 2 periods.

After Tatar, I think Miller, Eaves or Tootoo would have brought more to Z's line than Abby. Miller and Eaves have shown the ability to score, and I think Tootoo has shown decent hands to match his hustle and hitting. I get that picking any of those guys isn't exactly plugging a premier winger onto Z's line, but I would have changed things up. Guess we'll see if Franzen is out again on Friday.

I'd have liked to see Tatar get more minutes, too - I just don't think it would have really changed the outcome. I think either way our top6 would have looked just a bit off all night.

Like I said, the only thing I really disagree with is taking Gator off the third line. I don't like that we basically gave up on icing half our forwards tonight, and I think it forced us to overly rely on our top6 and it just wore them down.

I understand the comparison, but Lashoff will never be sheltered the way Lebda was here. A large portion of that time came when we had, arguably, the best team in the league for three consecutive seasons. Lebda could play sheltered minutes and not appear terrible.

Even if Lashoff gets sheltered minutes, the large decrease in team quality could expose his flaws much faster than Ledba's ever were.

I'm not sure Lebda could do what Lashoff is doing now, though. Lashoff is being thrown to the sharks right now, but he's kept his head above water. Because of his style, I don't think he'll need to be sheltered quite like Lebda was.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Pretty sure if Kindl was a healthy scratch we'd be up 3-1.

Wow, you sure ***** a lot about $800,000 Kindl when $5M Kronwall is ****ing cluelessly out of position and covering nobody on every goal against.

Get a clue, Fabricoh.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Lashoff, by the way, racks up another minus.
His -4 is second worst on the team, only ahead of Kronwall.

Kindl has is rough moments. But he looks like a legit NHL defenseman to me.

 

[SoupGuru]

A couple of thoughts:

that was a sloppy game for both teams but we out-sloppied the Blues.

No one on defense was any good but Kronwall is approaching Cleary levels of suckitude

Abdelkader is the only Wing I'd give a star to. He busted his ass.

 

[FlashyG]

Plus/minus is a flawed stat.

It's not a great stat, but it's pretty valid when comparing players on the same team. When you lead the defence in scoring you should have pretty decent +/- compared to your fellow defence teammates. Kronwall's are by far the worst.

Kronwall has been on the ice for more goals against than anyone else at Even Strength, on the Penalty kill and on the Power Play. He's also taken the most penalty minutes

By pretty much every unit of measure, defensively Kronwall has been the worst defenceman the Wings have this season.

 

[SoupGuru]

I remember before the game, Pierre asked Kronwall a question and he replied that he wasn't trying to replace Lidstrom, he was just going to be himself.

At the time I though that was pretty insightful and levelheaded.

Now I'm wishing he would try to be like Lidstrom more.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

I remember before the game, Pierre asked Kronwall a question and he replied that he wasn't trying to replace Lidstrom, he was just going to be himself.

At the time I though that was pretty insightful and levelheaded.

Now I'm wishing he would try to be like Lidstrom more.

His comments don't reflect reality. He is trying to be like Lidstrom. QB the PP dominate on defense. The coaching staff is doing it too.

If Ken Holland wants defense by committee, he needs to bring in enough talent on defense to allow Kronwall to be himself.

 

[BinCookin]

His comments don't reflect reality. He is trying to be like Lidstrom. QB the PP dominate on defense. The coaching staff is doing it too.

If Ken Holland wants defense by committee, he needs to bring in enough talent on defense to allow Kronwall to be himself.

We used to have this setup:

Quality Offensive Dmen

Lidstrom
Rafalski
Kronwall

Quality Defensive Dmen

Lidstrom
Stuart

Technically we have lost 4 D men the last few years.

(Lidstrom counts as 2)


You normally need a Letang/Orpik like situation with someone safe vs someone offensive.

I think White is pretty safe (#4 type D-man)
Ericson is doing really well (#5 previously, maybe now improving to a #3-4, he looked good tonight)
so is Lashoff and Huskins in a #7 type D-man way

And that leaves Kronwall (#2-3 offensive guy)
Quincey (#5 offensive guy)


There are many teams that do not have a really good #1 or #2 d-man in either category.
Sure we were a little spoiled having so many strong ones, but our D is pretty weak now. We need White and Ericsson to perform as #2-3 safe guys. That is the committee. White and Ericsson have to be really really safe. Maybe Quincey can improve, and it looks like he has been. Maybe he can be a #4 offensive guy and a #4 defensive guy.

 

[Flowah]

Ericson is doing really well (#5 previously, maybe now improving to a #3-4, he looked good tonight)

How is Big E, on our team, not a legit #2 defender or even #1? He's been our most solid D-man by far in my opinion.

I'm of the opinion, apparently not shared by most, that Kindl > Q. When Smith comes back, I want Q gone and Smith in.

 

[ricky0034]

How is Big E, on our team, not a legit #2 defender or even #1? He's been our most solid D-man by far in my opinion.

I'm of the opinion, apparently not shared by most, that Kindl > Q. When Smith comes back, I want Q gone and Smith in.

you're just misunderstanding the post you quoted

the #5/#3-4 talk you quoted is clearly referring to more of a league-wide point of view

 

[BinCookin]

How is Big E, on our team, not a legit #2 defender or even #1? He's been our most solid D-man by far in my opinion.

I'm of the opinion, apparently not shared by most, that Kindl > Q. When Smith comes back, I want Q gone and Smith in.

^^ Correct i was doing a league wide analysis.

I think Big E is currently our best D-man right now followed by White.

Everyone else needs to pick up their game. Kronwall in the offensive zone is doing ok, but needs to pick up his defensive game. Today's mistakes were pretty bad.

My main thesis is our team on the back end isn't that strong, but for us to do well by "committee" everyone has to perform well. Including Q / Smith / Kindl (whoever plays)...

 

[FlashyG]

How is Big E, on our team, not a legit #2 defender or even #1? He's been our most solid D-man by far in my opinion.

I'm of the opinion, apparently not shared by most, that Kindl > Q. When Smith comes back, I want Q gone and Smith in.

I'd rank our defence like this

Ericsson, White, Kronwall, Quincey, Smith, Kindl, Huskins, Lashoff...no opinion on Colaiacovo as he hasn't really played.

 

[BinCookin]

I also wonder if we were missing franzen's defensive game today?

he might not always look like he is hustling, but he plays pretty safe

 

[Flowah]

I'd rank our defence like this

Ericsson, White, Kronwall, Quincey, Smith, Kindl, Huskins, Lashoff...no opinion on Colaiacovo as he hasn't really played.

Q ahead of Lashoff and Smith?

Q makes way too many stupid passes and turns it over and falls down for no reason at all, for me to put him ahead of those two.

 

[CloneHakanPlease*]

Honestly if I was Gustav Nyquist, and I saw that game and how Dan Cleary played, I would be calling Holland right now with an ultmatium to either play me or trade me. Dude must be so understandably pissed at being denied 10times the money he is making right now so that Dan Cleary can pretend like he's still an NHL player.

 

[Flowah]

^^ Correct i was doing a league wide analysis.

I think Big E is currently our best D-man right now followed by White.

Everyone else needs to pick up their game. Kronwall in the offensive zone is doing ok, but needs to pick up his defensive game. Today's mistakes were pretty bad.

My main thesis is our team on the back end isn't that strong, but for us to do well by "committee" everyone has to perform well. Including Q / Smith / Kindl (whoever plays)...

Oh.

Ok then. Yeah. E is easily a #3/4 league wide. But I think he's playing exceptionally well right now, not just good compared to the rest of our D-corp. He's doing pretty much everything right. Using his huge body. He's getting almost nasty out there. He's gotten some points. Plays it pretty safe, good poise with the puck even. And he's making some tremendous outlet passes lately.

The only problem is, this is kind of what I see as his ceiling.

 

[BinCookin]

Oh.

Ok then. Yeah. E is easily a #3/4 league wide. But I think he's playing exceptionally well right now, not just good compared to the rest of our D-corp. He's doing pretty much everything right. Using his huge body. He's getting almost nasty out there. He's gotten some points. Plays it pretty safe, good poise with the puck even. And he's making some tremendous outlet passes lately.

The only problem is, this is kind of what I see as his ceiling.

acceptable ceiling

 

[we like our team*]

pretty damn good for the last pick in his draft

 

[joe89]

I also wonder if we were missing franzen's defensive game today?

he might not always look like he is hustling, but he plays pretty safe

We missed out on the effectiveness of that line if anything. They've been putting pressure on the other team most games, tiring out some of their top guys who play against them. Yesterday they only had a few Z setups on the rush and one man shows, causing them to play more defense than normally.

 

[ProPAIN]

I missed the third since I had a meeting this morning. Did they really have only 1 shot on goal in the third (according to the boxscore)? That's pathetic.

I don't if I'm disappointed with the result or happy with the point. I'm disappointed because they looked like they were going to thrash St. Louis with the start they had. Then late in the 1st and in the second period they looked like they would be luck if St. Louis didn't pot 6+ goals. Glad I missed the third though, but still got a point.

Abdelkader in the top 6...never again please.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

I missed the third since I had a meeting this morning. Did they really have only 1 shot on goal in the third (according to the boxscore)? That's pathetic.

I don't if I'm disappointed with the result or happy with the point. I'm disappointed because they looked like they were going to thrash St. Louis with the start they had. Then late in the 1st and in the second period they looked like they would be luck if St. Louis didn't pot 6+ goals. Glad I missed the third though, but still got a point.

Abdelkader in the top 6...never again please.

I didn't think the 3rd was nearly as bad as the lone shot on goal indicates. Detroit had the puck in the offensive zone a bit, just couldn't get shots on net. Literally everything from the point was being blocked and St. Louis did a nice job defending when Detroit had the puck down low.

I'm not going to lie. I'm happy about getting a point. In past seasons I would have been pissed about losing, but every point is so important this season and particular with this team (no Lidstrom plus the injuries.)

It's actually pretty pleasing knowing that they're getting points with the special teams being so bad and having the injuries they do. But they need the points. Even getting healthier the schedule is going to be a brute down the stretch.

 

[Henkka]

I didn't think the 3rd was nearly as bad as the lone shot on goal indicates. Detroit had the puck in the offensive zone a bit, just couldn't get shots on net. Literally everything from the point was being blocked and St. Louis did a nice job defending when Detroit had the puck down low.

Yeah, that was really weird period. Nothing that we were dominated, but they had this superb block fest there.

Our defenceman stats:
Kronwall, 1 shot on goal, 4 shots blocked, 1 missed shot
Quincey, 0 shots on goal, 4 shots blokced, 0 missed shots
White, 0 shots on goal, 0 shots blocked, 0 missed shots
Kindl, 1 shot on goal, 3 shots blocked, 1 missed shot
Lashoff, 2 shots on goal, 0 shots blocked, 1 missed shot
Ericsson, 0 shots on goal, 3 shots blocked, 0 missed shots

So the defence got 4 shots to the goalie, 14 attempts were blocked and 3 shots were missed. I also remember some shots that were blocked by our own player in Blues the end.

They really took the blueline away from us.

But why did we lost?

- SH goal
- PP goal
- Breakaway goal from a shift mistake at 2nd period (I wonder will we ever get away about these brain farts)

Special teams (surprise) and our mortal syn, shifting error.