GDT: Game #13 -- Wed Feb 13, 2013 - Blues @ Red Wings - 7:30 p.m.| NBCSN, TSN2

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JPE123

Registered User
Jan 23, 2013
3,153
10
I think we have to face it, this is a mediocre team at best. What we saw last night will be what we get in the next 35 games. This is a team going nowhere. Howard will have a great night here and there, our top guns will score a little and flashes of old but this is not even close to a championship caliber team. And Cleary is like a teat on a boar pig
 

Henkka

Registered User
Jan 31, 2004
31,077
12,078
Tampere, Finland
I don't like this win-every-other-game, either you go for it or you tank, being middle-of-the-pack and go out in 1st round SUCKS.

At this season, things can happen pretty fast. One long losing streak and high pick, here we come.

I think the standings are little bit fake about our real level, because we have had 8 home games and only 5 on road. We have been fine at home, but we really suck on the road, and until that trend changes, we will see a hard drop in the standings.

There's just too many injuries, in a perfect world we could get some kind of run if everyone would be heatlhy, but banged bodies does not turn to healthy in a short period of time and on that situation the team will never catch the highest gear.
 

wingfan

Registered User
Jul 1, 2012
868
419
I really don't understand all the pessimism around here. Franzen is out. Helm is out. Smith is out. Sammy is out. Cola is out. Howard has started 12/13 games(I really thought he looked fatigued last night, should've given Mrazek the start). I don't blame the loss on Howie, I just think he has to be exhausted, the SH goal was savable, anyone within a country mile saw where the pass was going and where the shot was coming from. They came out and dominated the first, shot themselves in the foot, and weren't able to recover. We still have a solid team. I don't think we'll win the division, but I feel a 4-6 seed is where we'll end up. Tatar is coming on, Andersson is holding his own, Ericsson is playing some of his best hockey, Pav is being Pav. Brunner had the confidence of an NHL superstar in the first and just fell off after that SH goal, the kid was made Shattenkirk look silly on that through the legs move, he was battling(as best he can) for loose pucks, he was covering the slot in the D zone. A lot of good thing happening.
 

JmanWingsFan

Your average Jman
Aug 18, 2011
4,461
0
Somewhere
I really don't understand all the pessimism around here. Franzen is out. Helm is out. Smith is out. Sammy is out. Cola is out. Howard has started 12/13 games(I really thought he looked fatigued last night, should've given Mrazek the start). I don't blame the loss on Howie, I just think he has to be exhausted, the SH goal was savable, anyone within a country mile saw where the pass was going and where the shot was coming from. They came out and dominated the first, shot themselves in the foot, and weren't able to recover. We still have a solid team. I don't think we'll win the division, but I feel a 4-6 seed is where we'll end up. Tatar is coming on, Andersson is holding his own, Ericsson is playing some of his best hockey, Pav is being Pav. Brunner had the confidence of an NHL superstar in the first and just fell off after that SH goal, the kid was made Shattenkirk look silly on that through the legs move, he was battling(as best he can) for loose pucks, he was covering the slot in the D zone. A lot of good thing happening.

A lot of so called Red Wings fans here are spoiled brats and chronic complainers. Just take this situation into account:

A certain player has played 7 seasons with the Wings.

He's played 505 games, scored 110 Red Wings goal, had 140 Red Wings assists for a total of 250 Red Wings points (that's essentially .5 ppg, excellent for a non-superstar player by most standards, especially for his tweener role). He was once a fan favorite and a very diverse player who could play in the top six and bottom six. He has a recent skid of very poor play in the last 11 games or so, and now people won't hesitate to savage him at any given moment if they perceive him as having made a mistake.

I'm not even going to name this player.

I question how easy it will be for people to turn on Datsyuk if he ever had a bad skid like this player who shall go unnamed. I think it is quite possible this could happen. Heck, last year there were some who were ready to turn on Zetterberg.

And then you have the numerous people who think Holland should have traded for X and signed Y, having no idea what goes on behind the closed doors of the GM's office. Frankly, judging by face value, you'd think that they believed Kenny was trying to sabotage the team... And then, without any evidence, they attack the GM for not trying to fix the team this offseason, even though the evidence suggests the opposite.

And then there are the couch potato coaches who think they know better than Babcock. They overlook his track record, the best among all coaches in the league, and won't hesitate to slam him if he doesn't play player X or sit player Y. Don't get me wrong, I question the decisions management makes too, but I'm here sitting on my behind typing this up, and they're there making money working their jobs. If Mr. Illitch thought they were 1/4 as bad some of these so called fans make management out to be, they'd be fired on the spot.

Frankly, I'm ashamed to call them fellow Wings fans. Sure, we can criticize management. I'm all open to that. There's a certain point where I draw the line between legitimate criticism and ridiculous criticism, and for some people here they're already well beyond that line. It appears they just take for granted 21 straight years of playoff success, and anything less than winning the Cup or reaching the WCF every year is absolutely unacceptable, so much so that management should be fired. I call that unrealistic and unfair. Thank the Lord for the ignore function. Utilize it well.
 

Kronwalled55

Detroit vs. Everybody
Jan 7, 2011
6,914
897
Atlanta, GA
We're in 5th place, coming off a 3 game winning steak, and ahead of St. Louis 1/4 of the way through the season... With THIS DEFENSE.

Lets just calmmmmm downnnnn.
 

fimoknete

Registered User
Jun 4, 2006
860
0
Roesrath, Germany
We're in 5th place, coming off a 3 game winning steak, and ahead of St. Louis 1/4 of the way through the season... With THIS DEFENSE.

Lets just calmmmmm downnnnn.

the problem is we were playing more games at home with only a 2 game stretch on the road.
we played only mediocre teams league wise but one just judged by performance so far not by potential.
we played 3 games already with a opponent playing hte night before i guess so far.
this is the easiest schedule i can remeber for a long time.

St. Louis 7th
Columbus 14th
Dallas 8th
Minnesota 11th
Chicago 1st
Dallas 8th
St. Louis 7th
Columbus 14th
Calgary 12th
St. Louis 7th
Edmonton 10th
Los Angeles 13th
St. Louis 7th

as a conternder you would loose sometimes vs. teams on place 5-15 and battling with teams on place 1-4.
if we are a contender team we suck and should have at least as much points as chicago.

detroit played 8 at home and 5 on the road.
chicago played 3 at home and 10 on the road.
dallas played 4 at home and 9 on the road.
LA 3 home 8 on the road.

so just saying we are 5th is true but doesn't say anthing about the teams quality. i guess we could even be in first place if the schedule would be easy enough. we played columbus twice, calgary and edmonton already. we should get 8 points out of this games. but we got only 4 points.

e.e. anaheim was playing vancouver twice already, the shark twice and chicago one time. they are in the second place.
sharks were playing vancouver, anaheim and chicgo already.
vancouver was playing all the top dogs in this league already and made their points.
chicago was playing the top dogs as well.
actually we should have more points then the blackhawks.
i would wonder how the standings would look like if we would have played vancouver twice, sharks twice and chicago twice already.

i dont buy this injury thing at all. zetta, dats, kronwall and howard haven't been injured so far. they carry the team and not some bottom 6 fringe player.
 
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Kronwalled55

Detroit vs. Everybody
Jan 7, 2011
6,914
897
Atlanta, GA
the problem is we were playing more games at home with only a 2 game stretch on the road.
we played only mediocre teams league wise but one just judged by performance so far not by potential.

St. Louis 7th
Columbus 14th
Dallas 8th
Minnesota 11th
Chicago 1st
Dallas 8th
St. Louis 7th
Columbus 14th
Calgary 12th
St. Louis 7th
Edmonton 10th
Los Angeles 13th
St. Louis 7th

as a conternder u would loose sometimes vs. teams on place 5-15 and battling with teams on place 1-4.
if we are a contender team we suck and should have at least as much points as chicago have regard less on the injurys.

e.e. anaheim was playing vancouver twice already, the shark twice and chicago one time. they are in the second place.
sharks were playing vancouver, anaheim and chicgo already.
vancouver was playing all the top dogs in this league already and made their points.

i dont buy this injury thing at all. zetta, dats, kronwall and howard haven't been injured so far. they carry the team and not some bottom 6 fringe player.

But like I posted on the last page, Detroit still has a very favorable schedule coming up in the next month too. A couple Vancouver games and another Chicago matchup are the biggest tests. Time will tell.
 

Soft Rock Renegade

Registered User
May 17, 2012
341
0
True, but a good deal of those minuses were his fault. He wasnt on the other end of the ice when the goal was scored. He was directly responsible for the puck getting in the net on numerous occasions this year.

good, then say that rather than use +/-. think we can all agree kronwall has not played well this season, but quincey is an abomination, regardless of +/- stats
 

JBauerly97

Registered User
Jan 8, 2013
174
0
Coldwater, MI
We're in 5th place, coming off a 3 game winning steak, and ahead of St. Louis 1/4 of the way through the season... With THIS DEFENSE.

Lets just calmmmmm downnnnn.

This.

And what, 8 starters out? This team can flat out play when they put their head down and grind. Seems to be what Babcock is preaching this year. "Gentleman, you don't have enough talent."

On a side note, I love the leadership Z is showing with his play and hard work. I loved Stevie and Lidstrom, but Z is a different kind of leader and I'm enjoying watching him.
 

icKx

Vanek 4 Prez
May 7, 2010
3,483
2
Intertubes
A lot of so called Red Wings fans here are spoiled brats and chronic complainers. Just take this situation into account:

A certain player has played 7 seasons with the Wings.

He's played 505 games, scored 110 Red Wings goal, had 140 Red Wings assists for a total of 250 Red Wings points (that's essentially .5 ppg, excellent for a non-superstar player by most standards, especially for his tweener role). He was once a fan favorite and a very diverse player who could play in the top six and bottom six. He has a recent skid of very poor play in the last 11 games or so, and now people won't hesitate to savage him at any given moment if they perceive him as having made a mistake.

I'm not even going to name this player.

I question how easy it will be for people to turn on Datsyuk if he ever had a bad skid like this player who shall go unnamed. I think it is quite possible this could happen. Heck, last year there were some who were ready to turn on Zetterberg.

Equating the Dan Cleary situation with a superstar, lifetime Red Wing like Datsyuk is ludicrous. And people are fans of the team, not players. Homer did a hell of a lot more for the winged wheel than Cleary ever will and he still caught flak when his joints turned to dust.

Nobody was ready to 'turn' on Zetterberg. Some fans have a real persecution complex :shakehead

Zetterberg is the highest paid player on this team. He's signed for life. He is expected to deliver, and when he doesn't it is completely reasonable to call him out on it.

Hell, he even said to the press he wasn't doing enough. Poor Zetterberg... turning on himself like that.
 

JmanWingsFan

Your average Jman
Aug 18, 2011
4,461
0
Somewhere
Equating the Dan Cleary situation with a superstar, lifetime Red Wing like Datsyuk is ludicrous.
Ripping apart a point per every other game player over a small stretch of bad games is ludicrous.
And people are fans of the team, not players.
The players make up the team, no? No Players=No team, therefore if you are a fan of the team, you are also a fan of the players.
Homer did a hell of a lot more for the winged wheel than Cleary ever will and he still caught flak when his joints turned to dust.
You're only making it sound worse for for the shameless jackasses who choose to savage Cleary. If they would shamelessly slam Homer, completely forgetting all his contributions to the team, than it is absolutely asinine and illogical to slam a PPEOG player in Cleary, who's contributions vastly outweigh his small stretch of bad games.

Nobody was ready to 'turn' on Zetterberg. Some fans have a real persecution complex :shakehead
Which is it? Nobody or some fans? The fact we had a thread last year shamelessly titled "Are we going to pretend Zetterberg doesn't have 5 goals?" tells me people were ready to turn on him.

Zetterberg is the highest paid player on this team. He's signed for life. He is expected to deliver, and when he doesn't it is completely reasonable to call him out on it.
This isn't about "calling people out." I've called Danny Cleary out. This is about the incessant savaging of up until this year a pretty darn good player for the Wings. Apparently, all it takes is a small skid of bad performance, and it's ok to put him under a microscope and chew him out for every small thing he does wrong. EVERY. DARN. THING. Apparently it's ok to forget all the good, which clearly outweighs the bad. I'm sure if you had a bunch of people heckling you for every little thing you did wrong, you wouldn't appreciate it, especially if up until last week, you've been doing a pretty solid job with your line of work.
 

DarkReign

Registered User
Jan 30, 2008
4,714
98
Kronwall was responsible for two goals. The SH goal where he let Gator take the puck carrier (Oshie) but never bothered to take the pass away. He just sort of floated in the lane, doing nothing. And the OT goal he didnt tie up Steen's stick on the crease crash.

One of Kronwall's worst games I can remember.
 

Run the Jewels

Make Detroit Great Again
Jun 22, 2006
13,819
1,751
In the Garage
Kronwall was responsible for two goals. The SH goal where he let Gator take the puck carrier (Oshie) but never bothered to take the pass away. He just sort of floated in the lane, doing nothing. And the OT goal he didnt tie up Steen's stick on the crease crash.

One of Kronwall's worst games I can remember.

I'm also not sure what Babs was thinking having Kindl out there on the PK, even if only for 11 seconds. Both Kronwall and Kindl were the main reason the Blues won that game. We were up 2-0 and should have cruised to victory. That's why I have a tough time believing forward is our biggest need, we clearly need another top d-man so Kronner can move down to his correct spot on the second pairing.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,322
900
GPP Michigan
Cleary has been garbage for two years. He was unwatchable last year. His excuse was that he needed surgery and decided not to get it until the offseason. He still looks like he needs surgery.

Thanks for the memories Cleary, but you are awful and are hurting the Wings every time you are on the ice. The NHL is a business, not a pity party that Jman wants us to to think it is.

Homer should have retired last year. Being useful ten years ago does not give you a free pass to suck for ten years.

In 75 games last year, Cleary had 30 penalty minutes.

In 13 games this year.....He has 22. He is old and slow which is forcing him to hang all over people and take horrendous penalties.

Any line Cleary is on is the worst line in hockey.
 
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JmanWingsFan

Your average Jman
Aug 18, 2011
4,461
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Somewhere
Cleary has been garbage for two years. He was unwatchable last year. His excuse was that he needed surgery and decided not to get it until the offseason. He still looks like he needs surgery.
I think every player prefers off season surgery rather than inseason surgery... I bet it has to do with the fact playing is their job and they don't want to miss any games at any point of the season if possible.

Thanks for the memories Cleary, but you are awful and are hurting the Wings every time you are on the ice. The NHL is a business, not a pity party that Jman wants us to to think it is.
This has got to be your most favorite strawman argument. Read and spend more than 1 second at least attempting to comprehend what I've said before you make false accusations about me.
 

icKx

Vanek 4 Prez
May 7, 2010
3,483
2
Intertubes
Which is it? Nobody or some fans? The fact we had a thread last year shamelessly titled "Are we going to pretend Zetterberg doesn't have 5 goals?" tells me people were ready to turn on him.

Why is pointing out Zetterberg's crappy play a problem? He didn't perform and was criticized for it.

This year he is performing well and is having praise heaped on him.

See how that works?

This isn't about "calling people out." I've called Danny Cleary out. This is about the incessant savaging of up until this year a pretty darn good player for the Wings. Apparently, all it takes is a small skid of bad performance, and it's ok to put him under a microscope and chew him out for every small thing he does wrong. EVERY. DARN. THING. Apparently it's ok to forget all the good, which clearly outweighs the bad. I'm sure if you had a bunch of people heckling you for every little thing you did wrong, you wouldn't appreciate it, especially if up until last week, you've been doing a pretty solid job with your line of work.

Cleary has been on the decline for a while now. I'll always appreciate his play in '08 and '09 -- the series winning goal against Anaheim in particular -- but he's simply not that player anymore.

The bottom line is people are tired of the busted vets taking spots from deserving kids.

Cleary is taking the brunt right now but I'm sure Bertuzzi and Sammy (if he's ever healthy) will take their fair share of flak in the coming weeks. Just watch.
 

JmanWingsFan

Your average Jman
Aug 18, 2011
4,461
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Somewhere
Why is pointing out Zetterberg's crappy play a problem? He didn't perform and was criticized for it.

This year he is performing well and is having praise heaped on him.

See how that works?

I'm pointing out how friggin fickle this section of the fanbase can shamelessly be. If they will turn on Zetterberg, they will turn on Wayne Gretzky if it came down to it. This whole "Heap praises on him when he's succeeding and tear him apart for a short length of time if his play drops off" is arbitrary and ludicrous.



Cleary has been on the decline for a while now.
Que? He had a injury plagued season last year, and has had a very poor showing a quarter of the way in, that's more like dropping off the face of the earth than declining for a while... I'm not sure what part of scoring 26 goals in 68 games is declining.
 

DeYarmond Edison

drinkingpinkrabbits
Apr 10, 2011
7,260
598
Bored in the USA
I thought these forums were here to discuss players you would rather see play, complain about/cheer on the team, and talk about what you would do if the decision was up to you. I guess I was wrong.
 

Flowah

Registered User
Nov 30, 2009
10,249
547
Equating the Dan Cleary situation with a superstar, lifetime Red Wing like Datsyuk is ludicrous. And people are fans of the team, not players. Homer did a hell of a lot more for the winged wheel than Cleary ever will and he still caught flak when his joints turned to dust.

Nobody was ready to 'turn' on Zetterberg. Some fans have a real persecution complex :shakehead

Zetterberg is the highest paid player on this team. He's signed for life. He is expected to deliver, and when he doesn't it is completely reasonable to call him out on it.

Hell, he even said to the press he wasn't doing enough. Poor Zetterberg... turning on himself like that.

The guy literally believes that "wearing the Winged Wheel" makes you immune from all criticism. Seriously.
 

HTT3*

Guest
A lot of so called Red Wings fans here are spoiled brats and chronic complainers. Just take this situation into account:

A certain player has played 7 seasons with the Wings.

He's played 505 games, scored 110 Red Wings goal, had 140 Red Wings assists for a total of 250 Red Wings points (that's essentially .5 ppg, excellent for a non-superstar player by most standards, especially for his tweener role). He was once a fan favorite and a very diverse player who could play in the top six and bottom six. He has a recent skid of very poor play in the last 11 games or so, and now people won't hesitate to savage him at any given moment if they perceive him as having made a mistake.

I'm not even going to name this player.

I question how easy it will be for people to turn on Datsyuk if he ever had a bad skid like this player who shall go unnamed. I think it is quite possible this could happen. Heck, last year there were some who were ready to turn on Zetterberg.

And then you have the numerous people who think Holland should have traded for X and signed Y, having no idea what goes on behind the closed doors of the GM's office. Frankly, judging by face value, you'd think that they believed Kenny was trying to sabotage the team... And then, without any evidence, they attack the GM for not trying to fix the team this offseason, even though the evidence suggests the opposite.

And then there are the couch potato coaches who think they know better than Babcock. They overlook his track record, the best among all coaches in the league, and won't hesitate to slam him if he doesn't play player X or sit player Y. Don't get me wrong, I question the decisions management makes too, but I'm here sitting on my behind typing this up, and they're there making money working their jobs. If Mr. Illitch thought they were 1/4 as bad some of these so called fans make management out to be, they'd be fired on the spot.

Frankly, I'm ashamed to call them fellow Wings fans. Sure, we can criticize management. I'm all open to that. There's a certain point where I draw the line between legitimate criticism and ridiculous criticism, and for some people here they're already well beyond that line. It appears they just take for granted 21 straight years of playoff success, and anything less than winning the Cup or reaching the WCF every year is absolutely unacceptable, so much so that management should be fired. I call that unrealistic and unfair. Thank the Lord for the ignore function. Utilize it well.

This post should be stickied to the top. People turn their backs on players that have gave so much, then call them "done". Remember Osgood was "done" then he came in and won a cup in 2008 and could have easily won the MVP. People were throwing Osgood under the bus before that.

Zetterberg had a bad stretch and people were calling for his head and wanted him traded. This year he is proving to be one of the best players in the NHL. Funny how that works.

People want to trade trash for superstars, it makes no sense why Jets want Mursak, Emmerton and a signed Lebda stick for Bogo... but people really hate Holland because he can't trade trash for good players.

On the flip side, if Holland gave up what it would really take to get said player, this forum would have an epic meltdown. For example, a first for Quincey was a fair deal because he was a RFA and ultimately signed to a fair contract. I will get flamed for saying that, but it is fact!

Same with Ericsson, people FLIPPED at Big Rigs contract, now it is a bargain. He's been good. Those same people won't come forward admit they were wrong. They are ALWAYS wrong, yet they keep yapping like they know what they are talking about. It is free entertainment, I guess.

Oh and don't compare Kronwalls stats to Quinceys, because that doesn't count. Yet these same people use stats to backup the argument in their favor.

Welcome to HF-hypocrisy.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
13,322
900
GPP Michigan
I think every player prefers off season surgery rather than inseason surgery... I bet it has to do with the fact playing is their job and they don't want to miss any games at any point of the season if possible.

This has got to be your most favorite strawman argument. Read and spend more than 1 second at least attempting to comprehend what I've said before you make false accusations about me.

There is nothing straw man about my argument. You think players should not be criticized if they are wearing the Winged Wheel.

Mike Babcock and hundreds of other coaches have perfectly explained the situation.

"What have you done for me lately?"

You basically want us to watch YouTube videos of Cleary doing something useful after every awful play he makes in the present.

Wearing the Wingeed Wheel does not mean you dont suck. It does not mean you are immune to criticism. I will not blindly support terrible players like Dan Cleary. He used to be good. Key part of that sentence is, "USED TO BE."


He needs to be put in the press box where he belongs and let Nyquist take his spot.
 
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