Confirmed with Link: Gagner, pick for Pronger and Grossman

[Sciamachy]

...

If you look up his stats on a longer timeline they're equally as ****ty, if that's any comfort to you.

Over the whole season his numbers were better than what you were showing. I'm not arguing they were great, I'm saying they were in the same general area as the rest of Phillys D so he wasn't some major force that dragged them down.

Granted, I watched 15 Philly games last year tops, and maybe in the other 65 Grossman was absolute ****. At no point did I see a game and think Grossman was anywhere close to how people are trying to decribe him here. He'll also be more sheltered behind OEL, who will eat 25-30 minutes per, than he was last season.

 

[hbk]

We all cried and moaned about Klesla but he filled a need very well as a big shot blocking D. In the right role, used properly Grossman can be an effective player. One that we can move at the deadline because nobody ever pays a premium on D at the deadline.

 

[Plub]

We all cried and moaned about Klesla but he filled a need very well as a big shot blocking D. In the right role, used properly Grossman can be an effective player. One that we can move at the deadline because nobody ever pays a premium on D at the deadline.

Actually, I think we were all pretty happy to get Klesla. I don't have the best memory, though.

 

[KG]

We all loved Klesla before Nolan ended his career.

 

[hbk]

I'm just surprised at the outrage on moving Gagner to create room for the young talent that we all complained we weren't playing.

 

[XX]

I'm just surprised at the outrage on moving Gagner to create room for the young talent that we all complained we weren't playing.

It's all bit a premature. Need to see what they do in FA and trades. Could be a massive upgrade, could be left scrambling.

 

[fauxflex]

I see a great deal of merit to the idea they are going for here. A lot of us have long advocated for the D to get heavier, meaner, and able to clear the crease. The problem is that Yandle is now gone, almost certainly to be replaced by a player that is nowhere near as good in transition. They can't really afford to take on a guy that sucks at moving the puck forward, even if he has some merit as a net front specialist. He's going to be moving the puck forward to what is probably a number of inexperienced players to boot, and has no experienced partner to cover for him.

Derek Morris was let go and he was a better player.

The team was really bad after Yandle left. This move is like digging a trench in front of Smith and handing out flak jackets.

I get what you're saying and yeah, Grossmann doesn't sound like "the answer" on D for you guys, but he can make the basic puck moving plays out of the d zone, so it's not like he's a complete crapshow back there. You just don't want him on an island, deep in the D zone, with nobody supporting.

I think it's just a matter of seeing how he can fit into the picture as things come together in camp etc. If it doesn't work out, he a UFA next season, so you either trade him for a 3rd or 4th or just don't re-sign. If it does work out he's serviceable and probably willing to sign 2-3 yrs for 2.5-3 mil, which is about what guys like him are worth. We'll have to see how it all plays out.

 

[CC96]

Let's hope Dahlbeck forces the issue.

Even if Dahlbeck does force the issue, Tippett is going to give the minutes to the vet, who's also one of his good ol' boyz from his days with the Stars.

 

[kihekah19*]

Grossmann is pretty bad. He's a Swedish version of Andrew Campbell. He will be bad at everything except clearing the crease occasionally.

Or he could find new life in the desert, as many have done before him. That is based on the assumption that one article is correct AND that all trust is put in corsi, which incidentally counts blocked shots and Grossmann is a shot blocker.

Turn that ol' frown upside down there xx!

 

[Jakey53]

Thanks for the input, you seem to a solid grasp on Grossmann.

Sometimes I don't know if the ignorant are just the loudest, or are in the majority. I fear it's the latter.

What gave you that idea.

 

[kihekah19*]

What gave you that idea.

Life.

 

[thelos]

Grossmann will sacrifice his body to win, but can't handle the puck at all

 

[hbk]

Lost in all this is the Pronger move removes any leverage teams thought they might of had on our perceived need to add salary.

 

[CC96]

Lost in all this is the Pronger move removes any leverage teams thought they might of had on our perceived need to add salary.

Excellent point. I hadn't thought of that before.

 

[DesertDawg]

It's been reported that the Fyers were asking for a higher draft pick if the Coyotes didn't pick up Pronger's contract
http://www.azcentral.com/story/spor...-coyotes-build-present-future-draft/29414559/

 

[uakena]

There are still issues with extrapolating too much from those stats but that's a whole other discussion.

I'm not here to say Grossmann is a great defenseman. I'm just contradicting those who perceive him as a completely inept, slow footed goon who can barely skate or move the puck or those who make sweeping negative generalizations about him based largely on small sample sizes of corsi stats.

There were certain times (not nearly enough) when the Flyers stressed it and played good team-defense on the ice, and in those times, Grossmann's corsi and other numbers improved accordingly. Not to completely excuse the player, because there were certainly some stretches of play where he struggled (mostly when playing injured), but with his style of play, he needs solid support from his teammates to play without overexposing his deficiencies.

I'd say at this point he's probably best suited for about 16-18 mins a night playing on a team with good team d, and a partner who can carry most of the offensive responsibilities...spot him in in certain situations, especially when playing teams with a strong net-front presence that he can defend etc..

While being inept with puck on his stick and slow as molasses, I have never seen claim that Nick Grosmann is a goon, while playing physical his hits are far from reckless.

Last two seasons Flyers played very structured team defense system, HC Craig Berube said he based it on what Babcock used in Detroit, it was sole team strategy all along, not just certain times. Taking into account that Michael Dell Zotto, Nick Schultz and Andrew Macdonald played during some point on Flyers top pairing last season, I don't think there was much of a choice.

Nicklas Grossman's most common linemates by TOI last year were Streit, Giroux, Voracek and Brayden Schenn. I think it is fair to say he had solid support by his team mates. The fact still remains that he did **** the bed last season, all the while dragged around the ice by Mark Streit when facing eastern conference teams on most nights.

The player he is now is defensive defenseman, who will generate whole lot of defense for you next season and to illustrate this I will borrow quote from Dave Tippett.

"I'll give you an example," he said. "We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can't move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn't defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he's making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he's only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/sports/coy...s-dave-tippett-perfect-fit.html#ixzz3eRkJeZlP

 

[fauxflex]

While being inept with puck on his stick and slow as molasses, I have never seen claim that Nick Grosmann is a goon, while playing physical his hits are far from reckless.

Last two seasons Flyers played very structured team defense system, HC Craig Berube said he based it on what Babcock used in Detroit, it was sole team strategy all along, not just certain times. Taking into account that Michael Dell Zotto, Nick Schultz and Andrew Macdonald played during some point on Flyers top pairing last season, I don't think there was much of a choice.

Nicklas Grossman's most common linemates by TOI last year were Streit, Giroux, Voracek and Brayden Schenn. I think it is fair to say he had solid support by his team mates. The fact still remains that he did **** the bed last season, all the while dragged around the ice by Mark Streit when facing eastern conference teams on most nights.

The player he is now is defensive defenseman, who will generate whole lot of defense for you next season and to illustrate this I will borrow quote from Dave Tippett.

OK so nobody calls him a goon (though I wouldn't be surprised if some of the most ignorant out there would do so)...point taken. But the other points stand. Keep in mind that the BSH bash piece...

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2015/1/8/7493779/nicklas-grossmann-analysis-flyers

...was taken from a relatively small sample size of about 3 months worth of games (as he was coming off off-season ankle surgery). He improved markedly in the games he played in the latter half of the season. Just like last season:

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/4/16/5615446/the-emergence-of-the-second-pairing

Also, despite what Berube wanted or claimed, the Flyers had frequent breakdowns in defensive discipline throughout the season primarily due to a lack of adequate support from the forwards...there were only small stretches of games where the team played solid team defense, and in those games, they had success and Grossmann tended to play well.

 

[fauxflex]

Grossmann will sacrifice his body to win, but can't handle the puck at all

Second part untrue. While he's not what you would call a "puck moving defenseman", he can make basic puck moving plays with regularity. I'd say on a scale of 1-10, he's around a 4 in terms of puck moving.

 

[uakena]

OK so nobody calls him a goon (though I wouldn't be surprised if some of the most ignorant out there would do so)...point taken. But the other points stand. Keep in mind that the BSH bash piece...

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2015/1/8/7493779/nicklas-grossmann-analysis-flyers

...was taken from a relatively small sample size of about 3 months worth of games (as he was coming off off-season ankle surgery). He improved markedly in the games he played in the latter half of the season. Just like last season:

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/2014/4/16/5615446/the-emergence-of-the-second-pairing

Also, despite what Berube wanted or claimed, the Flyers had frequent breakdowns in defensive discipline throughout the season primarily due to a lack of adequate support from the forwards...there were only small stretches of games where the team played solid team defense, and in those games, they had success and Grossmann tended to play well.

Again with the support? Because of inability of players such as Nick Schultz and Nick Grossman to make a outlet pass, on far too many occasions Flyers forwards had to come so low to lug the puck out of the D zone, that it would stifle their transition game as there were not many open players to pass the puck and opposing teams already established their trap in NZ.

Also Nick Grossman spent some 60% of his playing time behind Giroux or Couturier who are not worst in the league when it comes to defensive responsibilities. His play last season made Andy MacDonald look half decent defenseman. Let that sink in. What you are getting is Hall Gilesque good locker room guy who will show the kids how to be pro and whose on-ice performance will bring you closer to top lottery pick than play offs.

 

[tuxonpups]

Fantastic. He's here to partner with Murphy, help him become our shutdown defenseman of the future, and then be knocked down the depth chart by Dahlbeck's growth.

 

[strizzy16]

I like this trade. If Grossmann can give us some solid PK time, he is a welcome addition to the roster this year, and will likely not be part of the future plans come 2016-17 season.

Gagner showed flashes, but he's clearly too small to be effective at this level. would much rather see someone like Dvorak win the roster spot and get valuable development time this year.

Also, we now have 3/6 defensive spots projected for Swedish guys, hopefully Grossmann's most important contribution is improving chemistry and being a good mentor for OEL and Dahlbeck

 

[The Grocery Stick]

I'm just surprised at the outrage on moving Gagner to create room for the young talent that we all complained we weren't playing.

I was a Gagne fan (last year made me partial to anyone who could occasionally put a puck in a net) yet, I am fine with him going *if* it means the young talent gets to play. However, if it means more playing time for Moss, Chip and whatever scrubs they pick up...not so great.

 

[fauxflex]

Again with the support? Because of inability of players such as Nick Schultz and Nick Grossman to make a outlet pass, on far too many occasions Flyers forwards had to come so low to lug the puck out of the D zone, that it would stifle their transition game as there were not many open players to pass the puck and opposing teams already established their trap in NZ.

Also Nick Grossman spent some 60% of his playing time behind Giroux or Couturier who are not worst in the league when it comes to defensive responsibilities. His play last season made Andy MacDonald look half decent defenseman. Let that sink in. What you are getting is Hall Gilesque good locker room guy who will show the kids how to be pro and whose on-ice performance will bring you closer to top lottery pick than play offs.

On the better teams you see the forwards come back to help, often carrying the puck themselves, which actually helps their transition game not harm it. I've watched tons of Flyer games and have at times, studied Grossmann in particular. He can make basic outlet passes and plays to move the puck up the ice, plays that seem to get overlooked by the detractors. I can show you plenty of times when he's made good outlet/lead passes (I already posted one earlier in this thread). Show me some video of Grossmann getting good support, with open teammates to pass to, but having an inability to pass in those situations.

 

[Mosby]

Thought this was pretty funny...

It's Grossmann. Double the S, Double the N.

Yet, in the below clip, he's wearing a jersey that says "Grossman". Missing an N. It shows his jersey around the 0:25 mark.



How did the Stars screw this up?

 

[The Feckless Puck]

Yet, in the below clip, he's wearing a jersey that says "Grossman". Missing an N. It shows his jersey around the 0:25 mark.

It's because he was called "Grossman" by the NHL until around the time the league started mandating that Russian players' names needed to be more accurately represented on their jerseys. He corrected matters by adding the second N back to his name right around then.

Kinda like how it'd be nice to see "Bødker" instead of "Boedker" on the back of our favorite Dane's sweater.