Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 4

[Korpse]

Given the amount of cap space available at this time, I doubt that Pinto can be signed without a trade taking place, assuming all players are healthy.

Don’t need to be cap compliant until the season starts.

 

[Ouroboros]

If Pinto signs at 2 all it costs is Joseph and JBD sent down right?

Sort of. That leaves you with this...

Tkachuk [8.205714] - Stutzle [8.35] - Tarasenko [5]
Kubalik [2.5] - Norris [7.95] - Batherson [4.975]
X - Pinto [2] - Giroux [6.5]
X - Kastelic [.835] - MacEwen [.775]

Chabot [8] - Chychrun [4.6]
Sanderson [.925] - Zub [4.6]
Brannstrom [2] - Hamonic [1.1]

Korpisalo [4]
Forsberg [2.75]

Dead cap [6.820833]

Total - 81.886547

That leaves you 1.613453M to fill the two open spots, so basically you're forced into two league-minimum salaries. If you fill those slots with Kelly [.7625] and Sokolov [assume he signs for .775] you're under the cap by 76k, but you're running an 18 man skeleton crew which is not ideal.

Probably a decent chance you lose Bernard-Docker on the waiver wire if that concerns you at all.

It's tight.

 

[Micklebot]

If Pinto signs at 2 all it costs is Joseph and JBD sent down right?

No need to send JBD down, that would require waivers anyways.

Just trading Joseph would be enough, we have about 900k in space with 1 forward spot left to fill (plus a 13tj fwd if we want that)

So 2.95 out with Joseph, and 2.9 in with Pinto and say Sokolov or Smejkal, leaves the 900k for callups.

 

[RAFI BOMB]

I wonder if the Sens sign any players to a PTO for training camp. The only real openings would be for an AHL enforcer if Boko makes the main team, and some other depth forwards that would be cheap just in case there are some injuries in preseason.

Some names that come to mind as potential PTO options are: Nick Ritchie, Brett Ritchie, Zack Kassian, Jesse Puljujarvi, Wayne Simmonds, Brandon Baddock, Luke Witkowski Jamie Devane and Brett Gallant.

Baddock, Witkowski, Devane and Gallant are all AHL enforcers. Witkowski has played in the AHL and also plays D so the Sens might like that option in case they lose a D on waivers in training camp and need another AHL d man. Gallant is from PEI so he might want a chance to play close to home in the East Coast trip in preseason. Devane played a couple of season with the Ontario Reign where B Sens coach Dave Bell was an assistant coach. Sens would have some familiarity with Baddock from his time with Laval.

Simmonds is close friends with Giroux so it might be more of a favor to him. It would kind of depend if he willing to play in the AHL or not. Kassian has ties to Sens coaches DJ Smith and Bob Jones and was at the ALS event for Bob Jones.

Puljujarvi is coming off double hip surgery but he is a big body and the Sens have big targeting big athletic players.

The Ritchie bros could certainly be worth a PTO. Even with his flaws, Nick is a decent player and could be a worthwhile option to compete for a a depth role if you can get him cheap. Brett could offer some decent competition for the 4th line/extra forward spot and would be worth a 2 way contract if he is willing to sign it.

 

[Crosside]

I wonder if the Sens sign any players to a PTO for training camp. The only real openings would be for an AHL enforcer if Boko makes the main team, and some other depth forwards that would be cheap just in case there are some injuries in preseason.

Some names that come to mind as potential PTO options are: Nick Ritchie, Brett Ritchie, Zack Kassian, Jesse Puljujarvi, Wayne Simmonds, Brandon Baddock, Luke Witkowski Jamie Devane and Brett Gallant.

Baddock, Witkowski, Doty, Devane and Gallant are all AHL enforcers. Witkowski has played in the AHL and also plays D so the Sens might like that option in case they lose a D on waivers in training camp and need another AHL d man. Gallant is from PEI so he might want a chance to play close to home in the East Coast trip in preseason. Devane played a couple of season with the Ontario Reign where B Sens coach Dave Bell was an assistant coach. Sens would have some familiarity with Baddock from his time with Laval.

Simmonds is close friends with Giroux so it might be more of a favor to him. It would kind of depend if he willing to play in the AHL or not. Kassian has ties to Sens coaches DJ Smith and Bob Jones and was at the ALS event for Bob Jones.

Puljujarvi is coming off double hip surgery but he is a big body and the Sens have big targeting big athletic players.

The Ritchie bros could certainly be worth a PTO. Even with his flaws, Nick is a decent player and could be a worthwhile option to compete for a a depth role if you can get him cheap. Brett could offer some decent competition for the 4th line/extra forward spot and would be worth a 2 way contract if he is willing to sign it.

Don’t remember wich recently Dorion interview. But seems he gonna give a pto to Brassard again

 

[BigRig4]

Don’t remember wich recently Dorion interview. But seems he gonna give a pto to Brassard again

Brass was actually so solid last year. Not sure he’d be the same guy coming off injury though, especially at his age.

 

[bert]

Well, his choices are take whatever the team is offering, or sit out and make no money. He's not important enough to the roster for him siting out for the team to worry it will impact their season, so sitting out doesn't put a lot of pressure on the sens.

Yes it does and he is a very important player. This team has no depth and a centerman coming back from a major injury.

You say you like the player but your content says the opposite. He's better than you currently describe him and is going to be way better than you think.

Confirmed by your statement saying there isn't much difference between him and Grieg. He's much more polished, heavier, better in the dot and played a full 82 game schedule. Maybe this year he will have linemates that will get to loose pucks and play with some pace. That's when he's best.

 

[Micklebot]

Yes it does and he is a very important player. This team has no depth and a centerman coming back from a major injury.

You say you like the player but your content says the opposite. He's better than you currently describe him and is going to be way better than you think.

Confirmed by your statement saying there isn't much difference between him and Grieg. He's much more polished, heavier, better in the dot and played a full 82 game schedule. Maybe this year he will have linemates that will get to loose pucks and play with some pace. That's when he's best.

Holy crap, blaming his season on his linemates again So DBC was put in a position to succeed but his center was held back by his linemates that both outscored him significantly? I like Pinto quite a bit, but he absolutely struggled on his own, his dz coverage was problematic and he played far too passive in the Oz for the way he needs to in order to be effective. Were his linemates ideal? No, but they were still better than 90% of third line centers get. He'll get better and be an important piece moving forward, but my point was as a 3rd liner, the difference between running with Greig moved over to center with Joseph in the lineup or with Pinto on that line and no Joseph isn't make or brake for the season, either way the 3rd should be improved over last year, so there isn't a lot of pressure on the team.

 

[JD1]

Holy crap, blaming his season on his linemates again? I like Pinto quite a bit, but he absolutely struggled on his own, his dz coverage was problematic and he played far too passive in the Oz for the way he needs to in order to be effective. Were his linemates ideal? No, but they were still better than 90% of third line centers get. He'll get better and be an important piece moving forward, but my point was as a 3rd liner, the difference between running with Greig moved over to center with Joseph in the lineup or with Pinto on that line and no Joseph isn't make or brake for the season, either way the 3rd should be improved over last year, so there isn't a lot of pressure on the team.

I tend to agree with you that he wasn't great defensively. The kid was a rookie coming off a lost season. In that context he was great. In the context of being a 2C, he wasn't

But I do think he's quite important this year. He's the immediate plan B if we have a top 2C injury and he should be far better suited for the role if that materializes coming off 82 games played and a summer of training versus rehab.

If we are fortunate to not have top 2C injury issues, I think Pinto will be a guy that the talking heads will zero in on in the 2nd half of the season to explain why we're so deep.

Can you think of another center in the league that is still developing/improving that's going to slot down for basically the entire year? It's certainly not common.

300 games played from
Stu
Norris
Pinto
Kastelic

And the talking heads will be praising the Sens depth by February as we walk thru the front door to the playoffs.

 

[Micklebot]

I tend to agree with you that he wasn't great defensively. The kid was a rookie coming off a lost season. In that context he was great. In the context of being a 2C, he wasn't

But I do think he's quite important this year. He's the immediate plan B if we have a top 2C injury and he should be far better suited for the role if that materializes coming off 82 games played and a summer of training versus rehab.

If we are fortunate to not have top 2C injury issues, I think Pinto will be a guy that the talking heads will zero in on in the 2nd half of the season to explain why we're so deep.

Can you think of another center in the league that is still developing/improving that's going to slot down for basically the entire year? It's certainly not common.

300 games played from
Stu
Norris
Pinto
Kastelic

And the talking heads will be praising the Sens depth by February as we walk thru the front door to the playoffs.

So, my position is that there is zero chance he sits out all year, so I'm not as concerned about losing depth long term, maybe he misses 20 games before he finally breaks and signs, in that context can we get by without him, absolutely.

I'm also higher on Greig than it seems many are around here, so perhaps that's part of it. I think he showed well in spot duty in the top 6 though I wouldn't want him there all season like Pinto had to do.

My overall point is in a game of chicken between the team and Pinto I don't see much potential for Pinto coming out ahead. I guess if Norris or Stu get hurt opening night that would change the balance but until that happens Pinto is not in a good spot.

 

[JD1]

So, my position is that there is zero chance he sits out all year, so I'm not as concerned about losing depth long term, maybe he misses 20 games before he finally breaks and signs, in that context can we get by without him, absolutely.

I'm also higher on Greig than it seems many are around here, so perhaps that's part of it. I think he showed well in spot duty in the top 6 though I wouldn't want him there all season like Pinto had to do.

My overall point is in a game of chicken between the team and Pinto I don't see much potential for Pinto coming out ahead. I guess if Norris or Stu get hurt opening night that would change the balance but until that happens Pinto is not in a good spot.

No he's not in a good spot. His contract status gives him zero leverage

But we've no reason to think that he's not fully bought into the program. I like the idea of him accepting a QO 1 year type deal with a back pocket agreement that it gets squared up in January. Andlauer probably has to be involved in that and give his ok because if Dorion proposes that kind of thing, if I'm Pinto's agent I want assurance because Dorion might not be here in January

 

[Micklebot]

No he's not in a good spot. His contract status gives him zero leverage

But we've no reason to think that he's not fully bought into the program. I like the idea of him accepting a QO 1 year type deal with a back pocket agreement that it gets squared up in January. Andlauer probably has to be involved in that and give his ok because if Dorion proposes that kind of thing, if I'm Pinto's agent I want assurance because Dorion might not be here in January

Yeah, I hope (and expect) that Dorion would have communicated with him and his agent and set expectations; With the team in a bind cap wise, they can and should be able to find a bi-bipartite solution where both can get what they want. Truth be told, Pinto is probably better off betting on himself with a 1 year deal, if we had the space, a 1 year deal would be the last thing we'd want. So a lowball 1 year deal putting him hopefully in a stronger position to get paid down the road makes sense, whether its 400-800k lighter than he thinks he's worth won't make a lick of a difference after a 15 year career,

 

[GCK]

I’m sure Dorion has a couple plans in place depending how camp goes.

Hopefully Staios has a plan.

 

[bert]

So, my position is that there is zero chance he sits out all year, so I'm not as concerned about losing depth long term, maybe he misses 20 games before he finally breaks and signs, in that context can we get by without him, absolutely.

I'm also higher on Greig than it seems many are around here, so perhaps that's part of it. I think he showed well in spot duty in the top 6 though I wouldn't want him there all season like Pinto had to do.

My overall point is in a game of chicken between the team and Pinto I don't see much potential for Pinto coming out ahead. I guess if Norris or Stu get hurt opening night that would change the balance but until that happens Pinto is not in a good spot.

This team cannot afford a bad start. Players that sit out 20 games rarely have successful seasons. He's more important than you think. There will be injuries there is always injuries.

They should just sign him now and once that inevitable injury happens they will have room.

 

[Dan Patrick]

Could we possibly sign pinto to an incentives based contract? Where if he scores goals or assists over a certain low threshold he gets bonuses that would technically effect next years cap? Or is that not a thing in hockey

 

[Micklebot]

This team cannot afford a bad start. Players that sit out 20 games rarely have successful seasons. He's more important than you think. There will be injuries there is always injuries.

They should just sign him now and once that inevitable injury happens they will have room.

Fair point that missing camp will hurt Pinto's season, I think that's more leverage for the team than it is for Pinto though, he's not getting a multi year deal with out cap situation, so him missing camp and the start of the season likely just hurts his next contract.

As for injuries always happening, sure, but they don't always happen at the start of the season, and they don't always happen to centers. It's a roll of the dice no matter what, and we all agree more depth is better than less, so getting the contract done is better than not, but the team really can't afford to just fold and give him whatever, we're locked in at this point.

 

[Micklebot]

Could we possibly sign pinto to an incentives based contract? Where if he scores goals or assists over a certain low threshold he gets bonuses that would technically effect next years cap? Or is that not a thing in hockey

those kind of bonuses are only available on ELC, 35+ contracts, and to guys that missed the bulk of the season to injury.

 

[Dan Patrick]

those kind of bonuses are only available on ELC, 35+ contracts, and to guys that missed the bulk of the season to injury.

I sort of figured but couldn’t remember what the parameters were.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Yes it does and he is a very important player. This team has no depth and a centerman coming back from a major injury.

You say you like the player but your content says the opposite. He's better than you currently describe him and is going to be way better than you think.

Confirmed by your statement saying there isn't much difference between him and Grieg. He's much more polished, heavier, better in the dot and played a full 82 game schedule. Maybe this year he will have linemates that will get to loose pucks and play with some pace. That's when he's best.

Do we at least not need to see where Grieg is in Training camp to start making claims that he could replace Pinto now.
Pinto is important enough to move salary elsewhere to get him signed if that's what it takes. Sens are up against the cap and may convince him to sign a 1 year contract at a very low AAV but if the Sens want to be as good as they can be coming out of the gate Pinto is in the lineup.

Complicating the issue of moving salary are the best options for that may not be coveted by many teams and it may cost further assets to move them. At this point a low ball , imo below value 1 year is their most desirable solution. Explaining this dilemna to Andlauer would be interesting. Lewis Gross certainly knows the landscape and will have an excellent idea of Pinto's value in the league and to the Senators. It will be hard to bullshit him.

 

[bicboi64]

Pinto is going to miss camp, start the season late after signing a 1 year $1.5 million deal, and not have a good season.

Then we'll sign him for a 3-year $3.4 million aav because he doesn't score enough this season due to missing camp and not getting enough ice time. The next season he increases output and becomes a bargain.

Big Brain moves.

 

[Micklebot]

Do we at least not need to see where Grieg is in Training camp to start making claims that he could replace Pinto now.
Pinto is important enough to move salary elsewhere to get him signed if that's what it takes. Sens are up against the cap and may convince him to sign a 1 year contract at a very low AAV but if the Sens want to be as good as they can be coming out of the gate Pinto is in the lineup.

Complicating the issue of moving salary are the best options for that may not be coveted by many teams and it may cost further assets to move them. At this point a low ball , imo below value 1 year is their most desirable solution. Explaining this dilemna to Andlauer would be interesting. Lewis Gross certainly knows the landscape and will have an excellent idea of Pinto's value in the league and to the Senators. It will be hard to bullshit him.

Here's the thing, Greig isn't replacing Pinto, Norris coming back healthy is. If Pinto isn't signed, Greig is replacing Brassard who was our 3rd line C almost all of last year. Either one of Greig or Pinto imo is an upgrade over Brassard, Pinto is preferable, but Greig should be more than ready for that role as a former 1st round pick at 21 years old with AHL and NHL experience under his belt.

In the end, plan A is move Joseph and get Pinto signed, Greig is the backup plan. Personally, I see it as a very solid backup plan that allows us to not be rushed into doing something that is damaging long term like overpaying for Pinto or paying too much to move Joseph.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Here's the thing, Greig isn't replacing Pinto, Norris coming back healthy is. If Pinto isn't signed, Greig is replacing Brassard who was our 3rd line C almost all of last year. Either one of Greig or Pinto imo is an upgrade over Brassard, Pinto is preferable, but Greig should be more than ready for that role as a former 1st round pick at 21 years old with AHL and NHL experience under his belt.

In the end, plan A is move Joseph and get Pinto signed, Greig is the backup plan. Personally, I see it as a very solid backup plan that allows us to not be rushed into doing something that is damaging long term like overpaying for Pinto or paying too much to move Joseph.

Spin imo

 

[Micklebot]

Spin imo

is it though?

What are we replacing from last year, 20 G and 35 pts playing on the 2nd line? Well Norris/Tank in place of Debrincat and Pinto should more than cover that.

Pinto had 17 career pro games going into last year, Greig has 20 NHL games and 47 AHL games going into this year. Not sure why we don't think Greig is ready, he produced well and looked good in his NHL time, did well in the AHL too, plays a style that fits DJ's system. He'll also have some pretty good support on the 3rd line with Kubalik and presumable Joseph if Pinto isn't signed.

Greig is a gamer, he's ready imo. There was the same kind of chatter about Sanderson last year with people doubting whether he'd be ready for a top 4 role, I think people will be surprised by Greig.

 

[bicboi64]

is it though?

What are we replacing from last year, 20 G and 35 pts playing on the 2nd line? Well Norris/Tank in place of Debrincat and Pinto should more than cover that.

Pinto had 17 career pro games going into last year, Greig has 20 NHL games and 47 AHL games going into this year. Not sure why we don't think Greig is ready, he produced well and looked good in his NHL time, did well in the AHL too, plays a style that fits DJ's system. He'll also have some pretty good support on the 3rd line with Kubalik and presumable Joseph if Pinto isn't signed.

Greig is a gamer, he's ready imo. There was the same kind of chatter about Sanderson last year with people doubting whether he'd be ready for a top 4 role, I think people will be surprised by Greig.

I mean it was a gamble to have Pinto play as a 3C last year as well (based off his experience).
Pinto's play last season makes him a more suitable candidate for the 3C role than Grieg. If we slot in Grieg, we take the same gamble we did last year. Grieg's game isn't the same as Pinto's either in terms of defense.

I don't think Grieg can't handle it, I just think there is a distinct gap between both him and Pinto and its less than ideal to have him slotted as 3C

 

[Micklebot]

I mean it was a gamble to have Pinto play as a 3C last year as well (based off his experience).
Pinto's play last season makes him a more suitable candidate for the 3C role than Grieg. If we slot in Grieg, we take the same gamble we did last year. Grieg's game isn't the same as Pinto's either in terms of defense.

I don't think Grieg can't handle it, I just think there is a distinct gap between both him and Pinto and its less than ideal to have him slotted as 3C

He's a 21 year old first round pick, 3rd line is where these types of players typically start their careers. Of course it would be better to have Pinto who's now got an extra year under his belt, by having him, you have the redundancy of Greig being right there to come in if he gets hurt or falters, but we aren't talking about trading Pinto because we have Greig, we're talking about Greig being the insurance plan if negotiations drag on with Pinto, so it's nothing like gambling with Pinto as the 3rd line center last year, which was a long term commitment.

People wouldn't have the same reaction to playing Greig as our 3rd line center to start the season if it was because Pinto broke a foot or finger in camp, they'd be talking about how it's great that we have redundancy, but for some reason using that redundancy to make sure we don't get taken advantage of in trades (moving Joseph) or negotiations (extending Pinto) is for some reason too risky...

Here's the reality, we are talking about short term options for a 3rd line center, unless we are completely devoid or reasonable options I don't see it having a huge impact on the season, Greig is more than capable of filling that role short term.