Proposal: Free agency edition Trade Rumours/Proposals [MOD - Stay on Topic] 4

[Qward]

We also have to assume one of them will miss 10 games or 24 days after the start of the season.

 

[StoicSensFan]

I thought I read somewhere (Garrioch?) that the Sens aren't worried about Pinto or the cap issue because they have flexibility with Norris potentially not being ready/healthy to start the season? Or maybe Forsberg? I swear I read that.

Maybe this?

 

[slamigo]

Maybe this?

Lol, yup. That's exactly it. Not Garrioch but an actual 'source' sort of. Lol

 

[DrEasy]

Unless we have someone on LTIR all season it doesn't work, because if everyone is healthy for even one game you need to clear the space, the last couple years that's been what happens to us, more or less, but I don't think you can bank on it.

We need to move one of Joseph or Brannstrom, I guess Kubalik is also an option. Waiving j
Joseph technically works too, but it's tight. That could buy us time I suppose, but I don't like the idea of burying him all year, that's not a great look imo.

Can't we combine both ideas: Joseph plays with the Sens only when there's no one on LTIR, and is sent down otherwise.

 

[Micklebot]

We would need to accumulate the prorated difference between Forsberg and Sogaard to bring Forsberg back from LTIR.

Right, so if Forsberg is on LTIR for 20 games, we'd need to accumulate about 1.4 mil in projected space (1.85 prorated for the remaining season). To do that, for those 20 games we'd need to be 5.7 mil under our ACSL, not really feasible. He'd probably have to be on LTIR for about 35 to slide back in and even then it would leave us no margin for error.

 

[OD99]

Doesn't seem like anyone is going on LTIR from Norris, Chabot or Forsy so don't think that is a viable solution.

Sending Joseph down doesn't move the needle much and just gets us a worse player (plus I think Joseph is massively underrated here due to one poor season in which he had some injury concerns).

It will be very interesting to see what GMPD has up his sleeve to maneuver around this.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Feels like that cumulative return is heavily propped up by the Petry for Matheson trade, which I agree was a very good trade.

I have liked all the moves they made there, all neat little moves, but the only significant one will be the one that brought in Matheson, imo.

Doesn't seem like anyone is going on LTIR from Norris, Chabot or Forsy so don't think that is a viable solution.

Sending Joseph down doesn't move the needle much and just gets us a worse player (plus I think Joseph is massively underrated here due to one poor season in which he had some injury concerns).

It will be very interesting to see what GMPD has up his sleeve to maneuver around this.

Moving Joseph down only really moves the needle if we are running 11-7 OR able to sign Pinto for around 1mil.

 

[SlapJack]

Pinto will not be signing for $1M, like to think that's anywhere within the realm of possibility is insane

 

[Xspyrit]

Pinto will not be signing for $1M, like to think that's anywhere within the realm of possibility is insane

Totally disagree. Maybe 1 M$ is a bit low but what leverage does Pinto have exactly? He played 1 season with two 1st liners and only scored 26 ES points. He also had the luxury to get some PP time, so 2 luxuries that many of the guys listed below didn't have (probably all of them)

Just signed a 1 year contract :

Ty Dellandrea $900,000 (25 ES pts + 3 PK pts)
Oliver Wahlstrom $874,125 (already 161 NHL games, 0.40 PPG last 3 seasons which is very close to Pinto's last season)
Yegor Chinakhov $800,000 (same PPG as Pinto this season, already had a 62 GP season the year before)
Jesper Boqvist $775,000 (second 1 year contract after ELC, 0.35 PPG the last 2 seasons)

Just signed a 2 years contract :

Rafaël Harvey-Pinard $1,100,000 (14 goals in 34 games last season...)
Nils Höglander $1,100,000 (already 141 NHL games, 0.38 career PPG...)
Fabian Zetterlund $1,450,000 (signed a 1 year contract after ELC)

Ryan McLeod just signed $2,100,000 for 2 years. His 1 year after his ELC was only $798,000. 0.40 PPG this season, quite good defensively as well.

Noah Cates just signed $2,625,000 for 2 years. Pinto is nowhere near that level yet. Cates had Selke votes with only 38 pts in his rookie season, quite impressive.

Some people think Pinto should get 2.0+ AAV? Why exactly? 1 year at 1.2 AAV would be quite for example. Then if he does well, he can get the Colin White's contract (unless he wants to continue to bet on himself)

 

[Xspyrit]

It's better to just bury our heads in the sand and not look at this. Add Sean Monahan and a 1st for nothing (ok need ownership's collaboration here). There's a lot more than this too.

Meanwhile...

Mark Stone + Matt Duchene + Ryan Dzingel + Derick Brassard + Cody Ceci + Ben Harpur + 2nd + 3rd + 3rd + 4th + 7th + 25% retention on Murray's last 2 years

for

Erik Brannstrom + Jacob Bernard Docker + Lassi Thomson + Egor Sokolov

Are we going to add Nick Paul + 2nd for a 4th soon?

Don't even have the courage to expand it more lol

 

[Sun God Nika]

Totally disagree. Maybe 1 M$ is a bit low but what leverage does Pinto have exactly? He played 1 season with two 1st liners and only scored 26 ES points. He also had the luxury to get some PP time, so 2 luxuries that many of the guys listed below didn't have (probably all of them)

Just signed a 1 year contract :

Ty Dellandrea $900,000 (25 ES pts + 3 PK pts)
Oliver Wahlstrom $874,125 (already 161 NHL games, 0.40 PPG last 3 seasons which is very close to Pinto's last season)
Yegor Chinakhov $800,000 (same PPG as Pinto this season, already had a 62 GP season the year before)
Jesper Boqvist $775,000 (second 1 year contract after ELC, 0.35 PPG the last 2 seasons)

Just signed a 2 years contract :

Rafaël Harvey-Pinard $1,100,000 (14 goals in 34 games last season...)
Nils Höglander $1,100,000 (already 141 NHL games, 0.38 career PPG...)
Fabian Zetterlund $1,450,000 (signed a 1 year contract after ELC)

Ryan McLeod just signed $2,100,000 for 2 years. His 1 year after his ELC was only $798,000. 0.40 PPG this season, quite good defensively as well.

Noah Cates just signed $2,625,000 for 2 years. Pinto is nowhere near that level yet. Cates had Selke votes with only 38 pts in his rookie season, quite impressive.

Some people think Pinto should get 2.0+ AAV? Why exactly? 1 year at 1.2 AAV would be quite for example. Then if he does well, he can get the Colin White's contract (unless he wants to continue to bet on himself)

I would imagine he and his agent are trying to get him paid for the 20 goals he just scored. None of the players you listed have come close to scoring 20. 20g ≠ 20a when it comes to getting paid. To his agent all that matters is he beat a goalie 20 times.

Pinto also brings his hobey baker finalist, NCHC defensive forward of year, and NCHC forward of the year recognitions to establish his pedigree in negotiations. Just like high draft picks tend to get paid more than later draft picks.

I don't think it is time for him to get paid the big bucks yet but 1M is highly unrealistic and it likely gets done in the 1.75-2.2 band.

 

[slamigo]

Pinto needs a bridge deal at a reasonable rate. Sets him up for cashing in and allows the team to keep in the fold for the next couple of years.

 

[Micklebot]

I would imagine he and his agent are trying to get him paid for the 20 goals he just scored. None of the players you listed have come close to scoring 20. 20g ≠ 20a when it comes to getting paid. To his agent all that matters is he beat a goalie 20 times.

Pinto also brings his hobey baker finalist, NCHC defensive forward of year, and NCHC forward of the year recognitions to establish his pedigree in negotiations. Just like high draft picks tend to get paid more than later draft picks.

I don't think it is time for him to get paid the big bucks yet but 1M is highly unrealistic and it likely gets done in the 1.75-2.2 band.

He has absolutely zero leverage, I don't think he gets over 1.5, and that's only if we don't put him through the gears.

We can just play Greig and center and keep Joseph around if he wants 2 mil, he'll quickly realize 35 pts players that aren't eligible for offersheets don't get anywhere holding out

 

[SlapJack]

Totally disagree. Maybe 1 M$ is a bit low but what leverage does Pinto have exactly? He played 1 season with two 1st liners and only scored 26 ES points. He also had the luxury to get some PP time, so 2 luxuries that many of the guys listed below didn't have (probably all of them)

Just signed a 1 year contract :

Ty Dellandrea $900,000 (25 ES pts + 3 PK pts)
Oliver Wahlstrom $874,125 (already 161 NHL games, 0.40 PPG last 3 seasons which is very close to Pinto's last season)
Yegor Chinakhov $800,000 (same PPG as Pinto this season, already had a 62 GP season the year before)
Jesper Boqvist $775,000 (second 1 year contract after ELC, 0.35 PPG the last 2 seasons)

Just signed a 2 years contract :

Rafaël Harvey-Pinard $1,100,000 (14 goals in 34 games last season...)
Nils Höglander $1,100,000 (already 141 NHL games, 0.38 career PPG...)
Fabian Zetterlund $1,450,000 (signed a 1 year contract after ELC)

Ryan McLeod just signed $2,100,000 for 2 years. His 1 year after his ELC was only $798,000. 0.40 PPG this season, quite good defensively as well.

Noah Cates just signed $2,625,000 for 2 years. Pinto is nowhere near that level yet. Cates had Selke votes with only 38 pts in his rookie season, quite impressive.

Some people think Pinto should get 2.0+ AAV? Why exactly? 1 year at 1.2 AAV would be quite for example. Then if he does well, he can get the Colin White's contract (unless he wants to continue to bet on himself)

The guys you put forward as comparables that show Pinto might get $1m are absolutely not comparable, and the really good ones getting $2M+ are the comparables.

You think you're gonna get a smart center that's good on draws, can play in all situations, and just put up 20 goals as a rookie for the insulting amount of $1M? That's absolutely ludicrous and if it happens, Pinto needs a new agent who will then demand he gets traded.

 

[2CHAINZ]

It's better to just bury our heads in the sand and not look at this. Add Sean Monahan and a 1st for nothing (ok need ownership's collaboration here). There's a lot more than this too.

Meanwhile...

Mark Stone + Matt Duchene + Ryan Dzingel + Derick Brassard + Cody Ceci + Ben Harpur + 2nd + 3rd + 3rd + 4th + 7th + 25% retention on Murray's last 2 years

for

Erik Brannstrom + Jacob Bernard Docker + Lassi Thomson + Egor Sokolov

Are we going to add Nick Paul + 2nd for a 4th soon?

Don't even have the courage to expand it more lol

Seriously, if Dorion didn't get lucky with the Karlsson trade, he might have gone down as the worst NHL GM of all time.

 

[GCK]

Right, so if Forsberg is on LTIR for 20 games, we'd need to accumulate about 1.4 mil in projected space (1.85 prorated for the remaining season). To do that, for those 20 games we'd need to be 5.7 mil under our ACSL, not really feasible. He'd probably have to be on LTIR for about 35 to slide back in and even then it would leave us no margin for error.

The math is complex but it’s possible. I think it’s more likely either Joseph or Brannstrom get moved

 

[GCK]

Pinto will not be signing for $1M, like to think that's anywhere within the realm of possibility is insane

It’s definitely possible. It’s the Kevin Lebanc situation.

 

[Micklebot]

It’s definitely possible. It’s the Kevin Lebanc situation.

Lebanc was a bit different in that he was eligible for an offer sheet, and likely would have been an appealing target, SJ couldn't low ball him and force his hand or have him sit without some risk of another team snatching him up for picks. Pinto has less leverage and less production,

Would we be willing to "make him whole" on the next deal after a 1x1 deal? Would he trust us to do so? that's the potential similarity.

 

[GCK]

Lebanc was a bit different in that he was eligible for an offer sheet, and likely would have been an appealing target, SJ couldn't low ball him and force his hand or have him sit without some risk of another team snatching him up for picks. Pinto has less leverage and less production,

Would we be willing to "make him whole" on the next deal after a 1x1 deal? Would he trust us to do so? that's the potential similarity.

1 x 1M with a 3 year deal in the drawer to be signed Jan 1st.

 

[Big Muddy]

It’s definitely possible. It’s the Kevin Lebanc situation.

Sometimes I wonder if people understand what a 10.2.c. contract is? Pinto has zero leverage here, and the low contract would only be for one year. The Senators can make it up to Pinto a year later.

 

[Xspyrit]

I would imagine he and his agent are trying to get him paid for the 20 goals he just scored. None of the players you listed have come close to scoring 20. 20g ≠ 20a when it comes to getting paid. To his agent all that matters is he beat a goalie 20 times.

Pinto also brings his hobey baker finalist, NCHC defensive forward of year, and NCHC forward of the year recognitions to establish his pedigree in negotiations. Just like high draft picks tend to get paid more than later draft picks.

I don't think it is time for him to get paid the big bucks yet but 1M is highly unrealistic and it likely gets done in the 1.75-2.2 band.

Preface : Note that I have said "Maybe 1 M$ is a bit low"

ok but do you think any of the guys listed have had the chance to play with forwards of Batherson/DeBrincat's caliber? Dellandrea for example played a 19 y/o rookie Wyatt Johnston (who will be great) and a 33 y/o vet Jamie Benn (who was great and had a bounce back season) 30% of his TOI. Then he played with Seguin, Kiviranta, Domi, Glendening, etc . The only difference in production with Pinto is he had a whooping 3:00 of PP TOI ALL SEASON. Pinto had 168:48 in comparison...

But Dellandrea got great linemates in comparison to some others on this list. Wahlstrom most common linemates were Barzal, Bailey, Lee, Holmstrom and Parise... Chinakhov played with pretty much every Jackets forward, no common linemates. Same for Boqvist. Harvey-Pinard played with Suzuki, the great Josh Anderson, Ylonen, Hoffman, Pezzetta, Drouin, Armia and still scored 14 goals in 34 games... Höglander had great linemates though... JT Miller, Horvat, Pettersson mainly. Zetterlund played with Tatar, Hischier, Wood, Mcleod and many various forwards on both Devils and Sharks.

Don't get me wrong, I project Pinto becoming the best player of the whole bunch by a good margin, except maybe Noah Cates. But regarding the GOAL scoring argument... ok nobody scored 20 but RHP scored 14 goals in 34 games... How come he only got 1.1 AAV? He only would have need 6 goals in 48 games to match Pinto's total. Top prospect Pavel Dorofeyev scored 7 goals in 18 games, got a $825,000 AAV 1 year bridge. Small sample size but that's a 32 goals pace. Ross Colton had 9 goals in 30 games in 2020-21 and signed a 2 years contract at $1,125,000 AAV

I agree that goal scoring is logically what gives the most money but everybody knows Pinto scoring 20 goals is contextual, he had the luxury to play with 1st liners and get valuable PP time, not all rookies have that chance. If he does it again and improve on these numbers, he will get a big fat contract and that's the incentive for him.

In the meantime, for ONE year, he should do the team a "solid" and not be too greedy on a very short term bridge. Sens must have presented him the cap situation and how it gets cleared out as soon as next year. It's in everybody's interest to go for a cheap 1 year bridge. The more he performs, the more he'll make after that. If he's going to hold out for a few hundred K$ when he could make several more millions in the future, then maybe he's not the team player we thought he'd be and we should consider trading him for a blue chip prospect on his ELC to get cap compliant. Greig will be more than a capable 3rd line center. I'm sure you can sign a good defensive forward for 800 K$, Aston-Reese for example. We'd get to keep both Kubalik and Joseph

Anyway, if we can't get Pinto under 1.5 on a ONE year bridge and looking at Harvey-Pinard's 2 years bridge after scoring 14 goals in 34 games would just show again how much better Montreal's management is. Thank Alfie changes might be coming soon.

The guys you put forward as comparables that show Pinto might get $1m are absolutely not comparable, and the really good ones getting $2M+ are the comparables.

You think you're gonna get a smart center that's good on draws, can play in all situations, and just put up 20 goals as a rookie for the insulting amount of $1M? That's absolutely ludicrous and if it happens, Pinto needs a new agent who will then demand he gets traded.

Read my post above.

What has Pinto done MUCH better than Dellandrea and Harvey-Pinard for example so that he should paid TWICE their salary?

Noah Cates who is 2 years older and closer to UFA got 2 years x 2.625 AAV. Do you think Pinto is close to that caliber already? Do you think he should make as close to that on a ONE year contract with ZERO leverage?

Note : again, IMPORTANT to read carefully! I did say "Maybe 1 M$ is a bit low".

Sometimes I wonder if people understand what a 10.2.c. contract is? Pinto has zero leverage here, and the low contract would only be for one year. The Senators can make it up to Pinto a year later.

Quoted for emphasis

 

[bert]

Maybe this?

I heard this too but not those players. Forsberg and Norris are both ready to go.

 

[Qward]

I heard this too but not those players. Forsberg and Norris are both ready to go.

I dont know if they are. Josh didnt say he was 100% on the podcast, he said he was feeling good and making good progress in his rehab

 

[SlapJack]

Sometimes I wonder if people understand what a 10.2.c. contract is? Pinto has zero leverage here, and the low contract would only be for one year. The Senators can make it up to Pinto a year later.

Just because he has no leverage doesn't mean he has to take a shit offer. Pinto didn't create this cap problem and forcing him to take a ridiculous amount is not good for future negotiations.

If he takes 1M instead of 2M for one year and he gets hurt, that's a lot of money to have left on the table. Doesn't sound like much in terms of pro hockey players, but it's a considerable amount to not have if you're taking chances on your future

 

[SlapJack]

Preface : Note that I have said "Maybe 1 M$ is a bit low"

ok but do you think any of the guys listed have had the chance to play with forwards of Batherson/DeBrincat's caliber? Dellandrea for example played a 19 y/o rookie Wyatt Johnston (who will be great) and a 33 y/o vet Jamie Benn (who was great and had a bounce back season) 30% of his TOI. Then he played with Seguin, Kiviranta, Domi, Glendening, etc . The only difference in production with Pinto is he had a whooping 3:00 of PP TOI ALL SEASON. Pinto had 168:48 in comparison...

But Dellandrea got great linemates in comparison to some others on this list. Wahlstrom most common linemates were Barzal, Bailey, Lee, Holmstrom and Parise... Chinakhov played with pretty much every Jackets forward, no common linemates. Same for Boqvist. Harvey-Pinard played with Suzuki, the great Josh Anderson, Ylonen, Hoffman, Pezzetta, Drouin, Armia and still scored 14 goals in 34 games... Höglander had great linemates though... JT Miller, Horvat, Pettersson mainly. Zetterlund played with Tatar, Hischier, Wood, Mcleod and many various forwards on both Devils and Sharks.

Don't get me wrong, I project Pinto becoming the best player of the whole bunch by a good margin, except maybe Noah Cates. But regarding the GOAL scoring argument... ok nobody scored 20 but RHP scored 14 goals in 34 games... How come he only got 1.1 AAV? He only would have need 6 goals in 48 games to match Pinto's total. Top prospect Pavel Dorofeyev scored 7 goals in 18 games, got a $825,000 AAV 1 year bridge. Small sample size but that's a 32 goals pace. Ross Colton had 9 goals in 30 games in 2020-21 and signed a 2 years contract at $1,125,000 AAV

I agree that goal scoring is logically what gives the most money but everybody knows Pinto scoring 20 goals is contextual, he had the luxury to play with 1st liners and get valuable PP time, not all rookies have that chance. If he does it again and improve on these numbers, he will get a big fat contract and that's the incentive for him.

In the meantime, for ONE year, he should do the team a "solid" and not be too greedy on a very short term bridge. Sens must have presented him the cap situation and how it gets cleared out as soon as next year. It's in everybody's interest to go for a cheap 1 year bridge. The more he performs, the more he'll make after that. If he's going to hold out for a few hundred K$ when he could make several more millions in the future, then maybe he's not the team player we thought he'd be and we should consider trading him for a blue chip prospect on his ELC to get cap compliant. Greig will be more than a capable 3rd line center. I'm sure you can sign a good defensive forward for 800 K$, Aston-Reese for example. We'd get to keep both Kubalik and Joseph

Anyway, if we can't get Pinto under 1.5 on a ONE year bridge and looking at Harvey-Pinard's 2 years bridge after scoring 14 goals in 34 games would just show again how much better Montreal's management is. Thank Alfie changes might be coming soon.



Read my post above.

What has Pinto done MUCH better than Dellandrea and Harvey-Pinard for example so that he should paid TWICE their salary?

Noah Cates who is 2 years older and closer to UFA got 2 years x 2.625 AAV. Do you think Pinto is close to that caliber already? Do you think he should make as close to that on a ONE year contract with ZERO leverage?

Note : again, IMPORTANT to read carefully! I did say "Maybe 1 M$ is a bit low".



Quoted for emphasis

You can write an essay on it, but I'm not reading it.

Shane Pinto scored 20 goals last year as a rookie coming off an injury where he missed the entire last season. If somebody came in here from another board saying Pinto was not a good player, you'd write a wall of text disputing that.

You could start by saying that there were only 12 players under 23 that scored 20 goals last year, and guess who was one of them? But no, he should take a shit offer because he has a similar ppg to a couple of players that are genuinely NOT doing that well in the NHL.