Fox vs Chabot

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Fox’s rookie season was better than any Chabot season . Shouldn’t be close. Fox is nearly a PPG and playing ELITE defense, people won’t accept it because he’s small, but all the stats prove it.

 

[Adrianopolous]

Chabot takes this one fairly easily.

 

[Bileur]

Fox’s rookie season was better than any Chabot season . Shouldn’t be close. Fox is nearly a PPG and playing ELITE defense, people won’t accept it because he’s small, but all the stats prove it.

Fox was 22 as a rookie. In 70 games he put up 42 points.

In Chabot’s 22 y/o season, in 70 games he put up 41... assists. To go with his 14 goals. On a SIGNIFICANTLY inferior team. What are you going on about?

Look at the splits that year, unsurprisingly Chabot’s production fell off when Ottawa traded away pretty much anyone with offensive talent. He was on pace for way more.

 

[Bileur]

Track record? Fox's 107 game track record is better than anything we've ever seen from Chabot. By a nontrivial margin.

It goes without saying that Fox is so much better defensively that it's not even worth discussing, so I assume Chabot's track record your referencing is based on offensive production?

Since Fox entered the league, he's posted 13g 78p in 107 games, good for 6th among all defenseman. Over that same span, Chabot has scored 10g 63p in 108 games.

Keep in mind Fox was a rookie for the majority of those games, and was getting limited ice time for like the first half of the season. Chabot played >500 minutes more ice time since Fox's debut and was still outproduced handedly.

Since the end of December 2019 (as he started getting more ice time and PP opportunities), Fox has 61p in 68gp. That puts him first among all defenseman (carlson is next with 57 points). Chabot had 39 points in that span, and his career high is 55 points in 70 games.

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When has Chabot ever done anything like that? Never, because he can't create offense like Fox.

Combined with Fox's aforementioned defensive superiority, and this is not even remotely close.

Was Fox close to PPG? That’s nice.

Must be disappointing to have a defenseman who is so underwhelming offensively that can’t even go over PPG while leading defensemen in scoring in an arbitrary stretch of time like Thomas Chabot did from September 1st 2018 to December 1st 2018, despite having far more elite offensive weapons around him than Thomas Chabot ever has.

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You can make an argument for Fox without using ridiculous cherry picked arguments and without outright lying about Chabot.

 

[Sting]

We're going to put this poll up in a couple of years when the team compositions are drastically different and see how things have changed.

Chabot is arguably the only NHL defender on the second last place team in the league.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Was Fox close to PPG? That’s nice.

Must be disappointing to have a defenseman who is so underwhelming offensively that can’t even go over PPG while leading defensemen in scoring in an arbitrary stretch of time like Thomas Chabot did from September 1st 2018 to December 1st 2018, despite having far more elite offensive weapons around him than Thomas Chabot ever has.

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You can make an argument for Fox without using ridiculous cherry picked arguments and without outright lying about Chabot.

That's a 27 game sample spanning 2 months. Fox has more points than any defenseman since the end of 2019, a 72 game sample?

That's not really all that arbitrary of a timeline. It's essentially since Fox was given more PP time and an elevated role during his rookie season.

 

[Bileur]

That's a 27 game sample spanning 2 months. Fox has more points than any defenseman since the end of 2019, a 72 game sample?

That's not really all that arbitrary of a timeline. It's essentially since Fox was given more PP time and an elevated role during his rookie season.

Fox was #1 among Rangers D in PPTOI/GP in November 2019, he was 2nd in December 2019, 2nd in January 2020, 2nd in February 2020, 3rd in March 2020.

Why include January, February and March 2020 but not November and December 2019?

Could it be because including December 2019 bumps Fox from 1st to 4th?

Yeah, setting the cut off at the point that benefits your player without a plausible reason for doing so is arbitratry.

He’s 1st among D this season, I’d let that impressive feat speak for itself without artificially trying to bump it up.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Fox was #1 among Rangers D in PPTOI/GP in November 2019, he was 2nd in December 2019, 2nd in January 2020, 2nd in February 2020, 3rd in March 2020.

Why include January, February and March 2020 but not November and December 2019?

Could it be because including December 2019 bumps Fox from 1st to 4th?

Yeah, setting the cut off at the point that benefits your player without a plausible reason for doing so is arbitratry.

He’s 1st among D this season, I’d let that impressive feat speak for itself without artificially trying to bump it up.

Firstly, Fox is not my player.

Secondly, I have only provided the data going back that far because of comments that suggest he's benefiting from a small sample size. So I provided data showing that you can extend that sample all the way back to the halfway point of his rookie year.

And you can see in the splits - his overall usage was greatly increased after Dec 31st:

Before Dec 31st avg TOI = 18:05
After Dec 31st avg TOI = 19:52

Which makes sense because he was a rookie - most rookie defenseman take years to earn a coaches trust and figure out how to play in the NHL. It took Fox a few months.

But sure, let's include November and December 2019 and he's 3rd among all defenseman in scoring. But then there's the major caveat that he averaged only 21:25 a night during that span, which would be 66th among defenseman. The only two guys ahead of him in scoring (Carlson and Hedman) both played over 24 mins over that span, with Carlson played 73 more PP minutes and Hedman 47. In the sample I used, the difference in PP minutes is only 30 and 17 minutes respectively between Fox and those guys, so such a large caveat is not needed.

Not like any of this matters to the poll - even if Chabot was as good offensively as Fox (he's not), Fox blows him out of the water defensively.

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Fox was 22 as a rookie. In 70 games he put up 42 points.

In Chabot’s 22 y/o season, in 70 games he put up 41... assists. To go with his 14 goals. On a SIGNIFICANTLY inferior team. What are you going on about?

Look at the splits that year, unsurprisingly Chabot’s production fell off when Ottawa traded away pretty much anyone with offensive talent. He was on pace for way more.

because Fox was still elite defensively last year and had his PP time taken away by by DeAngelo, also he started the season on the 3rd pair and slowly worked his way up, since he was a rookie. This year he gets the big minutes (among the toughest in the entire league), finally on PP1.. and we're seeing what he can do.

Also that season the Sens were bad record wise but they were a pretty high scoring team overall

 

[Bileur]

because Fox was still elite defensively last year and had his PP time taken away by by DeAngelo, also he started the season on the 3rd pair and slowly worked his way up, since he was a rookie. This year he gets the big minutes (among the toughest in the entire league), finally on PP1.. and we're seeing what he can do.

Also that season the Sens were bad record wise but they were a pretty high scoring team overall

You can just admit you were making things up in that post saying Fox’s rookie season was better than any Chabot has put up.

And the sens were 17th in goals scored in 2018-2019, average at best. Rangers were 5th last year and are 9th this year, that’s a high scoring team.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You can just admit you were making things up in that post saying Fox’s rookie season was better than any Chabot has put up.

And the sens were 17th in goals scored in 2018-2019, average at best. Rangers were 5th last year and are 9th this year, that’s a high scoring team.

Scoring points is not the primary objective for a defenseman. Fox's all around contributions were significantly greater, he had some of the best all around and defensive possession numbers of any defenseman in the league.

His xGF% as a rookie (both absolute and relative) are better than anything we've ever seen from Chabot.

 

[Machinehead]

We can piss and moan about points all day.

Fox is near the top of the league in most defensive metrics despite being in the 97th percentile for hardest usage.

Chabot, on the other hand, is dead last in CA/60 and only seven D are worse at xGA/60.

A few points isn't making that up.

 

[Hisch13r]

I feel really good (and really bad) about picking Fox when this thread was first created

 

[Bileur]

We can piss and moan about points all day.

Fox is near the top of the league in most defensive metrics despite being in the 97th percentile for hardest usage.

Chabot, on the other hand, is dead last in CA/60 and only seven D are worse at xGA/60.

A few points isn't making that up.

I’ve got no problem with someone taking Adam Fox over Thomas Chabot. That’s fine.

I’ve got a problem with hyperbolic statements like Adam Fox’s rookie season is better than anything Thomas Chabot has ever done.

You guys can ignore the context if you want, Chabot’s fancy stats will improve once the garbage team around him improves. He plays on a razor thin defensive squad in terms of quality, playing in front of some of the worst goaltending in the league and backed up by young inexperienced forwards. He’s done this while essentially single handedly being the senators breakout and facing among the heaviest workload in the league.

 

[KevinFinnerty]

Fox easily. His IQ and poise is tremendous. Future Norris winner.

 

[Alluckks]

Chabot. Pretty easily, too

I like Fox. But I think Chabot is a top 3 Dman in this league. Fox vs Hamilton might be a closer comparison

Imagine ressurecting this thread months later to say Chabot AINEC and then say Chabot is Top 3 while Fox should be compared to Dougie Hamilton. The deafness lol

Not only has Fox proven to be noticeably better over the time from when this thread started in February till when it was brought back up last week, but Fox is the one in the Norris discussion as Top 3 Dman in the NHL this year where Chabot's name is nowhere to be found. I wish we could personally tag posters so that I could remember this guy's inability to use both foresight and hindsight

 

[Adele Dazeem]

Adam Fox is Mike Green-like; Chabot is Duncan Keith-like

 

[Mobiandi]

Imagine ressurecting this thread months later to say Chabot AINEC and then say Chabot is Top 3 while Fox should be compared to Dougie Hamilton. The deafness lol

Not only has Fox proven to be noticeably better over the time from when this thread started in February till when it was brought back up last week, but Fox is the one in the Norris discussion as Top 3 Dman in the NHL this year where Chabot's name is nowhere to be found. I wish we could personally tag posters so that I could remember this guy's inability to use both foresight and hindsight

A Rangers fan bumped the thread, not me. Also I really couldn't care less what Rangers fans think of my evaluations as they have collectively shown time and time again that they live in a bubble when it comes to other teams around the league.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

We can piss and moan about points all day.

Fox is near the top of the league in most defensive metrics despite being in the 97th percentile for hardest usage.

Chabot, on the other hand, is dead last in CA/60 and only seven D are worse at xGA/60.

A few points isn't making that up.

This matches up with the "eye test" for me as well. Whenever I watch the Sens, Chabot seems to be turning the puck over in dangerous situations at least a couple of times per game, and is out of position way more than a top defender should be.

Granted, some of that will be due to overuse, and some of that due to playing on such a badly structured team overall. But a lot of the errors I see him making are of his own doing by poor decision making and questionable defensive zone positioning.

 

[Alluckks]

A Rangers fan bumped the thread, not me. Also I really couldn't care less what Rangers fans think of my evaluations as they have collectively shown time and time again that they live in a bubble when it comes to other teams around the league.

Yep, just like what was said in this thread months ago being proven so untrue lmao

EDIT: and if a Rangers fan bumped this then I must have him on ignore, so, touche

 

[Lua]

Adam Fox is Mike Green-like; Chabot is Duncan Keith-like

Not sure if this is serious, but Mike Green is a horrendous comparison for Fox. Completely different toolset, and Adam Fox is magnitudes better defensively and with the puck in his own zone than Green ever was

 

[Kupo]

Adam Fox is Mike Green-like; Chabot is Duncan Keith-like

The Fox/Green analogy is like saying bacon is cauliflower-like.

It’s like saying a Hummer is Prius-like. Or cotton is sandpaper-like.

 

[The Crypto Guy]

Adam Fox is Mike Green-like; Chabot is Duncan Keith-like

Good lord, have you watched Adam Fox at all?

 

[Machinehead]

Adam Fox is Mike Green-like; Chabot is Duncan Keith-like

If Mike Green were a top 5 defender in the league, yes.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

This matches up with the "eye test" for me as well. Whenever I watch the Sens, Chabot seems to be turning the puck over in dangerous situations at least a couple of times per game, and is out of position way more than a top defender should be.

Granted, some of that will be due to overuse, and some of that due to playing on such a badly structured team overall. But a lot of the errors I see him making are of his own doing by poor decision making and questionable defensive zone positioning.

That's what I've been saying. The amount of high risk turnovers from him is too damn high.