Line Combos: Forward line-up: what would you do?

[Gil Fisher]

Ehlers Scheifele Wheeler
Connor Roslovic Laine
Lemieux Little Perreault
Copp Lowry Tanev

 

[bennylundholm]

After reading all the lineup possibility ideas...

I think this is our best:

Connor Little Wheeler
Ehlers Scheifele Laine
Perreault Lowry Tanev
Copp Roslo Lemieux

 

[jepjepjoo]

You can really do all the shuffling you want, putting guys on different lines, but when it gets down to it -- it's all about fixing the second line and getting Ehlers, Little and Laine going--the other lines are fine. You don't want to really change things to much, as we're getting decent scoring. Just that "second line."

It's not just about the 2nd line... See my earlier post about actual results. The 1st line isn't as good as people think.

 

[GNP]

Crosby and Getzel play with Rust, Malkin and Kessel play with Hagelin for instance
Mathews plays with Marleau and Hyman/Ennis
McDavid plays with RNH and Rattie
Ovie and Kunitzov play with Wilson

Bolded on far right are players who aren't top 6 talents.

The goal would be to to have two top line players on each of the first three lines:

.

_____________________________________________________

This is a very good post by Surixon, and exactly what I'd like to see the Jet's do. Mixing in good scorers with average players.

Note - on his example -- Mathews is playing with a 38 year old guy in Marleau, and an average player in Hyman, and Mathews has 10 goals in 5 games.

The high scoring Oilers of the mid 1980's had :

1st line - Kuri, Gretzky, average player

Their second line -- Messier - Glenn Anderson, and average guy.

Spreading your scoring talent around evenly, seems to be a winning formula for very smart coaches --I'd like to see the Jet's incorporate this strategy in their lineups.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Recency bias indeed. Ehlers made two glaring give-aways last night while Connor may have also made mistakes but not as obvious. The one on the Powerplay which almost cost us but Ehlers got back and fixed the situation, but eek. Also that pass when Schiefle needed to get off the ice. Therefore, Connor is also looking like the more intelligent player.

That's a different story, not his defensive play. That one on the powerplay was certainly a brain fart. But if you focus too much on a couple of big events you are liable to mislead yourself.

 

[204hockey]

Roslovic aint getting enough time send him down to play 1c and help him get better to eventually become a 2c 7 mins a game isnt enough.

copp can center the 4th line and put perrault in his spot to add some form of scoring

pls just go

Ehlers Shief Wheeler
Connor Litts Laine
French Lowry Tanev
petan copp lemuiex

moose 1st line
vesalianen roslovic appleton

injuries will happen then we can call up the kids sorry roslovic but u can ripen in the ahl

defence
morrisey trouba
morrow buff
kuli myers

we need to trade for a good top4 stay at home lhd to compliment buff

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Connor:
1) Better over all puck possession player- call if forechecking if you will but it means there are a number of things he does well as a forechecker - strips pucks, better possession, better puck pursuit, and less turnovers.
2) He's also a better shooter from traffic areas or in close
3) Super slick Puck handler IMO - in a nifty sort of way. Ehlers will beat you with speed or his edges but I give the stick skills to KC
4) Hockey IQ - Ehlers is no dummy but KC is above average smarts.

Ehlers:
1) is a faster skater,
2) better D
3) and maybe a better over all shooter if he can hit the net.

I don't think there is any way you can consider Ehlers the better player - and I give upside to KC as well.

Ehler fans will disagree -

I'm also a big Connor fan in case you haven't noticed

I'm a fan of both. But I think Ehlers is the more talented player all around. Hockey IQ, I can't say one way or another right now. Connor needs a larger body of work for me to assess. We could debate small slices of their respective abilities for a long time.

I don't think there is any way you can consider Connor the better player - and I give upside to Ehlers as well.

I think it is all in how we look at them right now and in what we are looking for. Either could eventually rise above the other in time. It will take 2-3 more years to say which one is ahead.

 

[raideralex99]

The Flames benched Michael Frolik and he came back tonight to score a pair of goals as Calgary beat the hot Bruins ... maybe that's what will take to light a fire under Ehlers azz.

 

[jepjepjoo]

_____________________________________________________

This is a very good post by Surixon, and exactly what I'd like to see the Jet's do. Mixing in good scorers with average players.

Note - on his example -- Mathews is playing with a 38 year old guy in Marleau, and an average player in Hyman, and Mathews has 10 goals in 5 games.

The high scoring Oilers of the mid 1980's had :

1st line - Kuri, Gretzky, average player

Their second line -- Messier - Glenn Anderson, and average guy.

Spreading your scoring talent around evenly, seems to be a winning formula for very smart coaches --I'd like to see the Jet's incorporate this strategy in their lineups.

Messier-Gretzky-Kurri
Messier-Gretzky-Anderson
Tikkanen-Gretzky-Kurri
Anderson-Gretzky-Kurri

 

[GNP]

Messier-Gretzky-Kurri
Messier-Gretzky-Anderson
Tikkanen-Gretzky-Kurri
Anderson-Gretzky-Kurri

______________________________________________________

You may be right on these lineups, but it's not what I've read, and I'm to lazy to research it. I do know that Semenko played on Gretzky's line the odd time, but that was to send a message.

I just do not think that Gretzky played on the same line with Messier ?? you could be right though, and I forgot about Tikkanen, who also was really good.

 

[Ippenator]

_____________________________________________________

This is a very good post by Surixon, and exactly what I'd like to see the Jet's do. Mixing in good scorers with average players.

Note - on his example -- Mathews is playing with a 38 year old guy in Marleau, and an average player in Hyman, and Mathews has 10 goals in 5 games.

The high scoring Oilers of the mid 1980's had :

1st line - Kuri, Gretzky, average player

Their second line -- Messier - Glenn Anderson, and average guy.

Spreading your scoring talent around evenly, seems to be a winning formula for very smart coaches --I'd like to see the Jet's incorporate this strategy in their lineups.

Small fix. Matthews isn’t playing with Hyman this season. Kapanen has been with Matthews instead and having already 8 points for his season while Matthews has already the league leading 14 points. Kapanen has been btw this season hailed by some people as even the fastest player in the whole NHL. I don’t know if he is really, but anyway he brings loads of speed and crazy hard forechecking to Matthews’s line, so it really seems to work well with the roles there. Matleau is then more the bringing some defence and poise to the line with his experience and on ice awareness.

Matthews and Kapanen have been in fact an incredibly dynamic duo. Both setting each others up very nicely. At least Babcock is willing to test different lines from time to time.

 

[GNP]

Small fix. Matthews isn’t playing with Hyman this season. Kapanen has been with Matthews instead and having already 8 points for his season while Matthews has already the league leading 14 points.

It has been in fact an incredibly dynamic duo. Both setting each others up very nicely. At least Babcock is willing to test different lines from time to time.

_______________________________________________________

Good point there IPP -- I just read Mathews was playing with Hyman, from another poster, and I guess the guy was wrong. Come to think of it, your right--Mathews is playing with Kapanen, and they both are really lighting it up.

No matter how you look at it--Maurice should be testing different line combinations as you say, but I think he's to scared or conservative. This is why Babcock is the highest paid coach,(or one of them) and one that has won the Stanley Cup. Players also want to play for him.

 

[Ippenator]

_______________________________________________________

Good point there IPP -- I just read Mathews was palying with Hyman, from another poster, and I guess the guy was wrong. Come to think of it, your right--Mathews is playing with Kapanen, and they both are really lighting it up.

No matter how you look at it--Maurice should be testing different line combinations as you say, but I think he's to scared or conservative. This is why Babcock is the highest paid coach,(or one of them) and one that has won the Stanley Cup. Players also want to play for him.

Probably the other poster was thinking that Matthews was still playing with Hyman, like he had been playing mostly for the last two seasons.

In fact Babcock is a bit similar to Maurice in his approach. He can be also quite stubborn and rigid. This is something that many top coaches have in them in fact. But what makes the real top coaches what they are is that they can still swallow their pride and even make at some point the needed changes, especially if the concepts that they have used just simply don’t work. And they do usually eventually recognise if they have something very clearly better at hand than the idea that they had before.

I mean Babcock was quite much criticized by many Leafs fans for keeping Hyman attached to Matthews’s hip. But the thing was that Hyman’s strengths complimented Matthews skills very well. Hyman is strong at the boards, a pretty good skater for his size and very good at forechecking and puck retrieving. And as Matthews wants to have the puck a lot, the kind of a puck hound that Hyman is, was in many ways pretty useful playing with Matthews, especially when Matthews himself is darn good at those same things. The only problem with the line with Hyman was that he was lacking in general skill and passing skills.

I think Babcock has been training Kapanen gradually defensively and trying to improve his attitude and work ethic by playing him in the 4th line in a purely defensive role so far. I do suspect that there has been a long term plan with it, as now at least it looks like Kapanen is truly ready to have even the kind of complimentary 1st line role that he has so far. With his defensive side and attitude problems fixed Kapanen is practically a more skilled and much faster version of Hyman, so it really seems that Babcock has a quite clear idea of what kind of roles compliment his star player that Matthews is.

Unfortunately I don’t see much of this kind of smart thinking with Maurice. He seems to be unfortunately pleasing certain players and because of it forcing certain players to take roles that they can’t optimally help them team with. It makes a pretty chaotic set of lines really. I absolutely hope for changes soon. The best change would be a coach change, but if Maurice is not leaving after all, then I want to see him seriously experimenting outside of his rigid and stubborn ideas.

 

[LowLefty]

I'm a fan of both. But I think Ehlers is the more talented player all around. Hockey IQ, I can't say one way or another right now. Connor needs a larger body of work for me to assess. We could debate small slices of their respective abilities for a long time.

I don't think there is any way you can consider Connor the better player - and I give upside to Ehlers as well.

I think it is all in how we look at them right now and in what we are looking for. Either could eventually rise above the other in time. It will take 2-3 more years to say which one is ahead.

Yes - very debatable - we can agree on that.

Connor's contract will be interesting - I expect he will be very expensive.
I like hearing others perspective on this because I have a feeling we may only be able to afford one of them.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I'm a fan of both. But I think Ehlers is the more talented player all around. Hockey IQ, I can't say one way or another right now. Connor needs a larger body of work for me to assess. We could debate small slices of their respective abilities for a long time.

I don't think there is any way you can consider Connor the better player - and I give upside to Ehlers as well.

I think it is all in how we look at them right now and in what we are looking for. Either could eventually rise above the other in time. It will take 2-3 more years to say which one is ahead.

I’ll just chime in to this discussion to point out that Connor has spent the majority of his time playing with Scheifele and wheeler and playing 20 mins per night. Ehlers hasn’t had that luxury lately, but he did just as well when he was 1LW.

So let’s not forget where each has been playing and the toi they are getting.

I actually don’t know which one is better, sort of like my toss up between wheeler and laine.

Move Scheifele and Little and see how the wingers do then. Would be a nifty little experiment.

 

[surixon]

Probably the other poster was thinking that Matthews was still playing with Hyman, like he had been playing mostly for the last two seasons.

In fact Babcock is a bit similar to Maurice in his approach. He can be also quite stubborn and rigid. This is something that many top coaches have in them in fact. But what makes the real top coaches what they are is that they can still swallow their pride and even make at some point the needed changes, especially if the concepts that they have used just simply don’t work. And they do usually eventually recognise if they have something very clearly better at hand than the idea that they had before.

I mean Babcock was quite much criticized by many Leafs fans for keeping Hyman attached to Matthews’s hip. But the thing was that Hyman’s strengths complimented Matthews skills very well. Hyman is strong at the boards, a pretty good skater for his size and very good at forechecking and puck retrieving. And as Matthews wants to have the puck a lot, the kind of a puck hound that Hyman is, was in many ways pretty useful playing with Matthews, especially when Matthews himself is darn good at those same things. The only problem with the line with Hyman was that he was lacking in general skill and passing skills.

I think Babcock has been training Kapanen gradually defensively and trying to improve his attitude and work ethic by playing him in the 4th line in a purely defensive role so far. I do suspect that there has been a long term plan with it, as now at least it looks like Kapanen is truly ready to have even the kind of complimentary 1st line role that he has so far. With his defensive side and attitude problems fixed Kapanen is practically a more skilled and much faster version of Hyman, so it really seems that Babcock has a quite clear idea of what kind of roles compliment his star player that Matthews is.

Unfortunately I don’t see much of this kind of smart thinking with Maurice. He seems to be unfortunately pleasing certain players and because of it forcing certain players to take roles that they can’t optimally help them team with. It makes a pretty chaotic set of lines really. I absolutely hope for changes soon. The best change would be a coach change, but if Maurice is not leaving after all, then I want to see him seriously experimenting outside of his rigid and stubborn ideas.

Yeah I wasn't aware of the recent Leaf lineup. I knew Mathews started the year with Ennis but didn't realize Kapanen had replaced him. Either way still the same idea with regards to spreading out the talent. I even think Garret at one point shared some research on the diminishing returns of playing three first line players on the same line or something.

 

[Howard Chuck]

_______________________________________________________

Good point there IPP -- I just read Mathews was palying with Hyman, from another poster, and I guess the guy was wrong. Come to think of it, your right--Mathews is playing with Kapanen, and they both are really lighting it up.

No matter how you look at it--Maurice should be testing different line combinations as you say, but I think he's to scared or conservative. This is why Babcock is the highest paid coach,(or one of them) and one that has won the Stanley Cup. Players also want to play for him.

I remember laviolette saying that he switches things up all the time even when winning because he has to know what works optimally and what doesn’t. Just for optimization of the team overall and in case of injuries.

Maurice won’t try anything. We have so much talent that we should be blowing right past teams right now. I don’t like this look that we have right now with wheeler and Scheifele seemingly calling the shots.

 

[Heldig]

Who would play D on the Petan Scheifele line? Also, since that line is the first line they would have to often take the toughest match-ups.

Who plays D on it now?

 

[Board Bard]

I remember laviolette saying that he switches things up all the time even when winning because he has to know what works optimally and what doesn’t. Just for optimization of the team overall and in case of injuries.

Maurice won’t try anything. We have so much talent that we should be blowing right past teams right now. I don’t like this look that we have right now with wheeler and Scheifele seemingly calling the shots.

They often do that. Unfortunately, it's when they're vacating the zone without the puck, looking for offence, just before a turnover occurs in their own end, leaving Myers and Morrow to fend off four opponents with tic-tac-toe on their minds.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Yes - very debatable - we can agree on that.

Connor's contract will be interesting - I expect he will be very expensive.
I like hearing others perspective on this because I have a feeling we may only be able to afford one of them.

I think that, like Morrissey, KC will have to be bridged. How much will depend on this year. I agree that when that bridge is up it may come down to choosing 1 or the other.

 

[Whileee]

Ehlers has 4 goals in last 40 games and you want to reward him by giving him first line minutes?
How about demoting him to 4th line or PB.

I think the objective of constructing a line-up is to maximize effectiveness and improve results, not to reward or punish players.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Who plays D on it now?

See Surixon's post before repeating same point. I'd argue Schief and Connor are two-way players.

 

[Adam da bomb]

That's a different story, not his defensive play. That one on the powerplay was certainly a brain fart. But if you focus too much on a couple of big events you are liable to mislead yourself.

No but has to do with level of IQ. Connor makes fewer brain farts that are as costly.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

No but has to do with level of IQ. Connor makes fewer brain farts that are as costly.

I think you are focusing on a few big events. They stand out in the mind but they aren't necessarily indicative of the overall play. I don't think the brain farts in that 1 game are typical of Ehlers.

 

[Adam da bomb]

I think you are focusing on a few big events. They stand out in the mind but they aren't necessarily indicative of the overall play. I don't think the brain farts in that 1 game are typical of Ehlers.

I'm calling it as I see it. If I saw the small events I'd call those. But I still believe that Connor has a higher IQ. Ehlers I believe often gets caught trying to make the fancy play.