Former Canucks: Players & Management - Part 2 (The Ben Hutton Sweepstakes are over)

[Zippgunn]

How was Bertuzzi’s punch on Moore any worse than Bure’s mother of all elbows on Shane Churla? Is Pavel Bure human garbage too?

Can you really not see the difference between Bure's elbow on Churla and Bertuzzi's criminal assault on Moore? Bure should have been suspended btw...

 

[Motte and Bailey]

Can you really not see the difference between Bure's elbow on Churla and Bertuzzi's criminal assault on Moore? Bure should have been suspended btw...

Bure was celebrated for his elbow on Churla. You’re talking about NHL hockey the way it was decades ago. The Violence was a feature not a bug.

As far as I can tell the main difference between the two is you decided to arbitrarily append the word criminal to Bertuzzi’s hit. Bure’s hit was no less dangerous or violent. If you care about consistency here then you should call the VPD right now and report Bure for assault for that elbow.

 

[MS]

Bertuzzi’s punch was awful but it was also no different in intent or violence than dozens of other incidents between 1990 and 2005.

Only difference was that the media took the words ‘broken neck’ and ran with it to an extent that didn’t happen with any other incident.

 

[Zippgunn]

Bure was celebrated for his elbow on Churla. You’re talking about NHL hockey the way it was decades ago. The Violence was a feature not a bug.

As far as I can tell the main difference between the two is you decided to arbitrarily append the word criminal to Bertuzzi’s hit. Bure’s hit was no less dangerous or violent. If you care about consistency here then you should call the VPD right now and report Bure for assault for that elbow.

I did not "arbitrarily append" the word "criminal" to Bertuzzi's attack on Moore; that was done by the justice system of British Columbia. Since you and yours are being deliberately obtuse let me detail the differences between the two incidents:
1. Bure was responding to things that Churla had done to him during the same game in which he delivered his elbow. Bertuzzi was responding to an incident that had happened to another player a month previously and was following the instructions of his coach and GM which were delivered well before the assault on Moore.

2. Bure delivered an elbow to Churla's head during head to head play. Bertuzzi snuck up behind Moore and delivered a sucker punch to his head from well behind the play.

3. Bert and the Canucks had been warned against doing just such a thing against Moore by the commissioner of the league who also attended the first meeting between the two clubs in question (the assault happened in the SECOND meeting between the two teams). No such warning was ever issued to Bure, possibly because there were neither public threats of revenge against Churla and certainly because Bure's elbow was an immediate response to things that had happened in the same game. There was no time for either.

4. Bure's infraction is something that is actually in the NHL rulebook; elbowing. Criminal assault is not covered in the NHL rulebook. It IS, however, covered in the Criminal Code of B.C.

5. Churla recovered from his injury and played 5 more seasons in the NHL. Moore's career was instantly ended by Bertuzzi's assault.

6. Bure was not charged with any crime, probably because the powers that be considered his actions to be within the normal scope of a hockey game. Bertuzzi was charged (and convicted) of criminal assault largely because the powers that be considered Bertuzzi's action to be well outside the behavior acceptable is a normal hockey game.

Hope this helps clear up any confusion you might have regarding the differences in these two incidents. There are literally no similarities other than two guys getting hurt.

 

[Canucko]

Bertuzzi’s punch was awful but it was also no different in intent or violence than dozens of other incidents between 1990 and 2005.

Only difference was that the media took the words ‘broken neck’ and ran with it to an extent that didn’t happen with any other incident.

This is factually incorrect. I can’t recall the dozens of premeditated events prior to this one that were considered criminal. Maybe I have forgotten in my old age - can you point to a few of them?

 

[MikeK]

Bertuzzi’s punch was awful but it was also no different in intent or violence than dozens of other incidents between 1990 and 2005.

Only difference was that the media took the words ‘broken neck’ and ran with it to an extent that didn’t happen with any other incident.

Can't say I agree with this one.

 

[Didalee Hed]

I did not "arbitrarily append" the word "criminal" to Bertuzzi's attack on Moore; that was done by the justice system of British Columbia. Since you and yours are being deliberately obtuse let me detail the differences between the two incidents:
1. Bure was responding to things that Churla had done to him during the same game in which he delivered his elbow. Bertuzzi was responding to an incident that had happened to another player a month previously and was following the instructions of his coach and GM which were delivered well before the assault on Moore.

2. Bure delivered an elbow to Churla's head during head to head play. Bertuzzi snuck up behind Moore and delivered a sucker punch to his head from well behind the play.

3. Bert and the Canucks had been warned against doing just such a thing against Moore by the commissioner of the league who also attended the first meeting between the two clubs in question (the assault happened in the SECOND meeting between the two teams). No such warning was ever issued to Bure, possibly because there were neither public threats of revenge against Churla and certainly because Bure's elbow was an immediate response to things that had happened in the same game. There was no time for either.

4. Bure's infraction is something that is actually in the NHL rulebook; elbowing. Criminal assault is not covered in the NHL rulebook. It IS, however, covered in the Criminal Code of B.C.

5. Churla recovered from his injury and played 5 more seasons in the NHL. Moore's career was instantly ended by Bertuzzi's assault.

6. Bure was not charged with any crime, probably because the powers that be considered his actions to be within the normal scope of a hockey game. Bertuzzi was charged (and convicted) of criminal assault largely because the powers that be considered Bertuzzi's action to be well outside the behavior acceptable is a normal hockey game.

Hope this helps clear up any confusion you might have regarding the differences in these two incidents. There are literally no similarities other than two guys getting hurt.

“Snuck up behind Moore”?

Really?

 

[Intangibos]

Imagine thinking it's not a big deal to skate hard and drive your elbow into someone's head because they were aggressive with you earlier

 

[Zippgunn]

“Snuck up behind Moore”?

Really?

Yeah, really.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Bertuzzi’s punch was awful but it was also no different in intent or violence than dozens of other incidents between 1990 and 2005.

Only difference was that the media took the words ‘broken neck’ and ran with it to an extent that didn’t happen with any other incident.

nope. there were a very small number of plays on that level and they were contraversial.

 

[krutovsdonut]

i like bertuzzi but he lost his mind that night. his only excuse is not knowing his own strength. i don't know about criminal but it was a terible awful thing.

 

[MS]

nope. there were a very small number of plays on that level and they were contraversial.

There were 2-3 guys getting knocked out cold by sucker punches every year.

And as noted above, Bure hunting down Shane Churla miles away from the play and knocking out cold with a flying elbow is fundamentally no different from what Bertuzzi did.

 

[krutovsdonut]

There were 2-3 guys getting knocked out cold by sucker punches every year.

And as noted above, Bure hunting down Shane Churla miles away from the play and knocking out cold with a flying elbow is fundamentally no different from what Bertuzzi did.

you had to reach back a decade from the bertuzziincident to come up with that example.

and we all recall that and peca's hit on selanne too because they were unusual and controversial.

 

[MS]

you had to reach back a decade from the bertuzziincident to come up with that example.

and we all recall that and peca's hit on selanne too because they were unusual and controversial.

Domi suckering Niedermayer and Samuelson.
Johnson on Beukeboom. Hunter on Turgeon.

This stuff happened pretty regularly in the 1990s but Brian Burke turned a very lax eye to it when he was the NHL disciplinarian. Knock an unsuspecting player out cold, get a 4-5 game suspension. But by 2004 attitudes were starting to change and Bertuzzi was scapegoated in a way no other player was.

Like, here’s Dana Murzyn basically doing a Bertuzzi on Ulf Dahlen (complete with kneeing the already unconscious player in the head) and I’m pretty sure most Canuck fans don’t even remember it.

 

[Didalee Hed]

....

 

[Didalee Hed]

Yeah, really.

Why are you cheapening your argument with a lie?

 

[Zippgunn]

Why are you cheapening your argument with a lie?

Sorry, not taking the bait. Bye now...

 

[Didalee Hed]

Sorry, not taking the bait. Bye now...

There’s no bait. Nowhere I want to take this besides the “sneak up” thing. Bertuzzi does no such thing.

 

[Jay Cee]

I did not "arbitrarily append" the word "criminal" to Bertuzzi's attack on Moore; that was done by the justice system of British Columbia. Since you and yours are being deliberately obtuse let me detail the differences between the two incidents:
1. Bure was responding to things that Churla had done to him during the same game in which he delivered his elbow. Bertuzzi was responding to an incident that had happened to another player a month previously and was following the instructions of his coach and GM which were delivered well before the assault on Moore.

2. Bure delivered an elbow to Churla's head during head to head play. Bertuzzi snuck up behind Moore and delivered a sucker punch to his head from well behind the play.

3. Bert and the Canucks had been warned against doing just such a thing against Moore by the commissioner of the league who also attended the first meeting between the two clubs in question (the assault happened in the SECOND meeting between the two teams). No such warning was ever issued to Bure, possibly because there were neither public threats of revenge against Churla and certainly because Bure's elbow was an immediate response to things that had happened in the same game. There was no time for either.

4. Bure's infraction is something that is actually in the NHL rulebook; elbowing. Criminal assault is not covered in the NHL rulebook. It IS, however, covered in the Criminal Code of B.C.

5. Churla recovered from his injury and played 5 more seasons in the NHL. Moore's career was instantly ended by Bertuzzi's assault.

6. Bure was not charged with any crime, probably because the powers that be considered his actions to be within the normal scope of a hockey game. Bertuzzi was charged (and convicted) of criminal assault largely because the powers that be considered Bertuzzi's action to be well outside the behavior acceptable is a normal hockey game.

Hope this helps clear up any confusion you might have regarding the differences in these two incidents. There are literally no similarities other than two guys getting hurt.

Bertuzzi just gave Moore a little love tap. He deserved far worse.

 

[Canucko]

Domi suckering Niedermayer and Samuelson.
Johnson on Beukeboom. Hunter on Turgeon.

This stuff happened pretty regularly in the 1990s but Brian Burke turned a very lax eye to it when he was the NHL disciplinarian. Knock an unsuspecting player out cold, get a 4-5 game suspension. But by 2004 attitudes were starting to change and Bertuzzi was scapegoated in a way no other player was.

Like, here’s Dana Murzyn basically doing a Bertuzzi on Ulf Dahlen (complete with kneeing the already unconscious player in the head) and I’m pretty sure most Canuck fans don’t even remember it.

Unless I’m mistaken, none of these were criminal.

 

[Jay Cee]

Unless I’m mistaken, none of these were criminal.

Applying a criminal standard to plays in pro sports has been problematic. A criminal act in sport is supposed to be judged by taking into account how egregious the play was and how outside of the norms of regular play it was. Otherwise it falls loosely in the rules of the game.

A sucker punch leading to an injury is a scuker punch leading to injury. Application of criminal law in sports has been arbitrary at best.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Unless I’m mistaken, none of these were criminal.

Criminality isn't an inherent characteristic of anything, it's a societal judgement applied after the fact.

 

[Canucko]

Applying a criminal standard to plays in pro sports has been problematic. A criminal act in sport is supposed to be judged by taking into account how egregious the play was and how outside of the norms of regular play it was. Otherwise it falls loosely in the rules of the game.

A sucker punch leading to an injury is a scuker punch leading to injury. Application of criminal law in sports has been arbitrary at best.

What people are (shockingly) still not realizing is the premeditated nature of the act. It changes the intent.

 

[Canucko]

Criminality isn't an inherent characteristic of anything, it's a societal judgement applied after the fact.

It is in a lawful society.

 

[Jay Cee]

What people are (shockingly) still not realizing is the premeditated nature of the act. It changes the intent.

Maybe, but crimes aren't inherently premeditated.

Also, if i spear you in the nuts and you sucker punch me a few shifts later and put me in a wheel chair, that is still premeditated. It doesn't have to be elaborate.