Former Canucks: Players & Management - Part 2 (The Ben Hutton Sweepstakes are over)

[RobertKron]

 

[Hit the post]

expected and basically required this game to be the red wings v. Lemieux 2.0.

Interesting you bring up the McCarty & Lemieux "events".

After McCarty jumped Lemieux and pounded him, everyone knew that it still didn't square things between the teams (as what Lemieux did to Draper was VERY nasty). In the first game back in Detroit between the two teams, rather than letting the Avs enforcer line up against McCarty; Lemieux decided to face him. In the ensuing fight (which Lemieux naturally lost), McCarty still HATED the man but respected him for taking his lumps.

 

[krutovsdonut]

didn't mcsorley get prosecuted for thatnhit on brashear? seemed like a huge deal at the time.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

I just came here to eat some humble pie. He was fine last season, but he's been baaaaad to start this season.

Personally, I don't even care how good or bad Gudbranson is in Pittsburgh. I'm just glad he's gone. He was so, so bad here.

 

[Canucko]

It’s exactly the same as Bure’s.

Bertuzzi didn’t go into that game planning on suckering Moore in the back of the head. But the game turned into a blowout, Bertuzzi took the opportunity to challenge Moore, Moore skated away and a frustrated and stupid Bertuzzi chased him and punched him.

Bure grew tired of Churla’s antics, stalked him and KOed him.

If the Bure play happened today, he’d be suspended 20-30 games.

Well...it was alleged that this was not to be the case. Dating back to the original incident where it was alleged that May placed a bounty on Moore, there was significant history and circumstance that makes it very difficult to assert it was not premeditated. Bert challenging Moore to a fight really proves this further.

There were plenty of hits before, and after, that were worse. Bure’s flying elbow from across the ice was probably worse in action (despite result). However, the circumstances surrounding the Moore hit was far different than Bure’s heat of the moment (within the same game) and that, to me, is what made it criminal in nature.

 

[Zippgunn]

I don't think the Bert 2.0 is true for HFboards.

I know for a fact I wasn't the only one who said he was just a big playmaker with a tough side who can help create space.

This again goes back to pro scouting failure of this regime where they have a picture of a player and if you don't fit that picture, you are deemed valueless. Hence, the trade for the "protypical 4th line winger" in Prust. Sutter for Bonino. etc.

I was posting mostly on CDC back then and it was an almost universal opinion amongst posters there...

 

[Zippgunn]

It’s exactly the same as Bure’s.

Bertuzzi didn’t go into that game planning on suckering Moore in the back of the head. But the game turned into a blowout, Bertuzzi took the opportunity to challenge Moore, Moore skated away and a frustrated and stupid Bertuzzi chased him and punched him.

Bure grew tired of Churla’s antics, stalked him and KOed him.

If the Bure play happened today, he’d be suspended 20-30 games.

My guess would be 10 games because, you know Bure = star and Churla = goon...

 

[EpochLink]

I just came here to eat some humble pie. He was fine last season, but he's been baaaaad to start this season.

The only reason he’s still in the league is because of his high draft position, ever since he left Florida he’s been a mess.

 

[Zippgunn]

Well...it was alleged that this was not to be the case. Dating back to the original incident where it was alleged that May placed a bounty on Moore, there was significant history and circumstance that makes it very difficult to assert it was not premeditated. Bert challenging Moore to a fight really proves this further.

Don't forget the 2nd intermission visit to the Canuck dressing room by their GM and his command that Moore "pay the price"...

 

[bandwagonesque]

My guess would be 10 games because, you know Bure = star and Churla = goon...

He hit Churla right in the head with a deliberate flying elbow, putting all his strength into it. It's unthinkable that this would even happen in 2019 and if anyone did it today I honestly believe they'd be out for the season and there'd be talk of suspending them for multiple seasons.

 

[Jay Cee]

Well...it was alleged that this was not to be the case. Dating back to the original incident where it was alleged that May placed a bounty on Moore, there was significant history and circumstance that makes it very difficult to assert it was not premeditated. Bert challenging Moore to a fight really proves this further.

There were plenty of hits before, and after, that were worse. Bure’s flying elbow from across the ice was probably worse in action (despite result). However, the circumstances surrounding the Moore hit was far different than Bure’s heat of the moment (within the same game) and that, to me, is what made it criminal in nature.

I was trying to be polite. You don't need to be an expert in criminal law, you just need to be less cocky. You don't know anything about criminal law and it shows. As I said, premeditation is not inherent part of criminal law, or for the charge of assault which is what we are speaking of. Unless it is specifically deemed so by the charge, premeditation is irrelevant for purposes of determining guilt in criminal law. Sometimes premeditation might make a sentence longer but that is really up to the discretion of the court.

Some notable on-ice incidents that led to criminal charges

Here are some examples of where criminal law has been applied to hockey. As I said from the outset it has been completely arbitrary based on perhaps the politics of the issue more than anything, much like a lot of criminal law. As I said from the beginning being "criminal" does not gauge the severity of the issue which is what you claimed.

We have countless examples of horrible plays far outside the norms of the game that were not prosecuted, probably because luckily no one was hurt like they could have been or it did not make the Canadian hockey media highlights.

 

[Canucko]

I was trying to be polite. You don't need to be an expert in criminal law, you just need to be less cocky. You don't know anything about criminal law and it shows. As I said, premeditation is not inherent part of criminal law, or for the charge of assault which is what we are speaking of. Unless it is specifically deemed so by the charge, premeditation is irrelevant for purposes of determining guilt in criminal law. Sometimes premeditation might make a sentence longer but that is really up to the discretion of the court.

Some notable on-ice incidents that led to criminal charges

Here are some examples of where criminal law has been applied to hockey. As I said from the outset it has been completely arbitrary based on perhaps the politics of the issue more than anything, much like a lot of criminal law. As I said from the beginning being "criminal" does not gauge the severity of the issue which is what you claimed.

We have countless examples of horrible plays far outside the norms of the game that were not prosecuted, probably because luckily no one was hurt like they could have been or it did not make the Canadian hockey media highlights.

Again, I never said premeditation was required, nor did I ever suggest I was an expert in law, criminal or otherwise.

However, if you have other examples where an alleged conspiracy to injure was occurring leading up to the on ice events I would love to read them.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Boy, I'm sure glad we're using this thread to rehash the Bertuzzi incident. Nope, hasn't been nearly enough analysis over the last decade and a half.

 

[Zippgunn]

He hit Churla right in the head with a deliberate flying elbow, putting all his strength into it. It's unthinkable that this would even happen in 2019 and if anyone did it today I honestly believe they'd be out for the season and there'd be talk of suspending them for multiple seasons.

Even if it were, say, Connor McDavid going after, say, Radko Gudas?

 

[Zippgunn]

Boy, I'm sure glad we're using this thread to rehash the Bertuzzi incident. Nope, hasn't been nearly enough analysis over the last decade and a half.

I try not to get drawn into it but it amazes me how many people in Vancouver think it was somehow justified or even laudable. Saying that there are "countless" incidents just like it in NHL is being deliberately obtuse if not totally dishonest; nothing in NHL history even comes close when you assemble all the details about it that make it unique. My wife and I watched it happen live and were horrified; took me a long time to root for the team after that. Still have my doubts about a large segment of their fanbase. And, having said all that, I'm out. Have a nice day, folks.

P.S, anybody who insists on poking this particular bear can PM me; I don't want to clog up this thread any further...

 

[bandwagonesque]

Even if it were, say, Connor McDavid going after, say, Radko Gudas?

At this point, yes. No one has done anything like it in years, to my recollection. And no one is going to, either.

 

[Zippgunn]

At this point, yes. No one has done anything like it in years, to my recollection. And no one is going to, either.

Believe me, I want you to be right but I would be surprised if CM got more than 15 games for a similar incident.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Believe me, I want you to be right but I would be surprised if CM got more than 15 games for a similar incident.

Those hits have been removed from the game, and in retrospect it's crazy it took so long. Players just don't go there anymore. They know it will wreck their careers. I think a big part of what made this happen are the terrifying accounts of the last years of the lives of certain players with brain damage who overdosed or killed themselves. For example, the story of Derek Boogard on a city street calling all his friends so they could help him figure out where he was.

 

[mathonwy]

Boy, I'm sure glad we're using this thread to rehash the Bertuzzi incident. Nope, hasn't been nearly enough analysis over the last decade and a half.

You gotta admit that we were big time overdue for a Bert rehash.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

You gotta admit that we were big time overdue for a Bert rehash.

No we weren't.

 

[mathonwy]

No we weren't.

Who hurt you?

 

[M2Beezy]

Who hurt you?

It was me, but i apologized to PC

 

[DFAC]

Bert got the loudest cheer the other night, Vancouver will always love him and rightfully so.

Moore incident aside, he was one of the most dominant players in Canucks history

 

[EpochLink]

Bertuzzi during that time and era, for me was as dominant hockey player in the league.
This was during my high school years, I needed a team to cheer for.
Him, Naslund, Jovo, Ohlund..those were the guys.

So yeah, it was great seeing him in that ceremony.
Guy has taken alot of crap over the years, for once I'd like to acknowledge his accomplishments for what he did here.

 

[F A N]

Well...it was alleged that this was not to be the case. Dating back to the original incident where it was alleged that May placed a bounty on Moore, there was significant history and circumstance that makes it very difficult to assert it was not premeditated. Bert challenging Moore to a fight really proves this further.

It's not that difficult to assert that it was not premeditated. We're not dealing with an unbroken chain here. Say May said, "Ya there's definitely a bounty on Moore's head." How would you interpret that to mean? That Moore had a target on his back and the Canucks would look to hit him every chance they got? To try and fight him? I highly doubt most people would interpret that as they're literally going to have him leave the ice on a stretcher. The fact that Bert challenged Moore to a fight actually suggests that he had no plans to assault Moore.