Former Canucks: Players & Management - Part 2 (The Ben Hutton Sweepstakes are over)

[bandwagonesque]

It is in a lawful society.

I don't think you understand what other people in this thread are actually saying.

 

[Canucko]

Maybe, but crimes aren't inherently premeditated.

Also, if i spear you in the nuts and you sucker punch me a few shifts later and put me in a wheel chair, that is still premeditated. It doesn't have to be elaborate.

I didn’t suggest that crimes were inherently premeditated.

You can debate this all you’d like. He was charged and pleaded guilty to assault.

Apparently this was common in the 1990s and 2000s. I’d just like to be reminded of the similar cases.

 

[Canucko]

I don't think you understand what other people in this thread are actually saying.

What is more likely is that I hold the opinion of others who determine the merit of such cases etc in a higher regard than anonymous posters from 15 years after the fact.

 

[Hit the post]

Applying a criminal standard to plays in pro sports has been problematic.

How about Louie E's intentional fraud at pretending to be a six million dollar NHLer?

 

[krutovsdonut]

Criminality isn't an inherent characteristic of anything, it's a societal judgement applied after the fact.

like murder? theft?

criminality in most cases is clearly defined before the act. it's relatively rare that it is debatable. it is grey in hockey because players voluntarily consent to play a violent game where fighting is tolerate.

 

[MS]

Unless I’m mistaken, none of these were criminal.

Uh, that’s the point.

Bertuzzi’s incident was treated differently because:

1) attitudes toward this sort of thing were starting to change.

2) Colorado and Moore did everything in their power to stoke this into a media circus.

And it ended up crossing out of hockey into the mainstream with the ‘Won’t someone think of the children!’ crowd pushing for criminal charges.

As has been noted, that so many Canuck fans (and I’ve been as guilty of this as anyone) who are like ‘Ha, remember when Bure hunted down that dirty opposing player miles away from the play and knocked him out cold? That was awesome!’ will also claim ‘Ugh, remember when Bertuzzi hunted down that dirty opposing player miles away from the play and knocked him out cold? That was terrible!’ is ever-so-slightly hypocritical.

 

[Hit the post]

Bert could've avoided all that by just turning Moore around and/or hitting him from the front. Sneak attacks from behind are ALWAYS going to look bad.

 

[mathonwy]

Bert could've avoided all that by just turning Moore around and/or hitting him from the front. Sneak attacks from behind are ALWAYS going to look bad.

A successful sneak attack results in a critical.

A rogue striker like Matt Cooke knows this which is why they never use full force. The berserking barbarian tank on the other hand

....

Nobody intended to make this a criminal matter. Crap happens. Sucks for everyone.

 

[I am toxic]

A successful sneak attack results in a critical.

A rogue striker like Matt Cooke knows this which is why they never use full force. The berserking barbarian tank on the other hand

....

Nobody intended to make this a criminal matter. Crap happens. Sucks for everyone.

For assassins. And best to dip into gloomstalker and use hunter's mark as a bonus.

 

[Hit the post]

A successful sneak attack results in a critical.

-4 on the saving throw?

 

[Canucko]

Uh, that’s the point.

Bertuzzi’s incident was treated differently because:

1) attitudes toward this sort of thing were starting to change.

2) Colorado and Moore did everything in their power to stoke this into a media circus.

And it ended up crossing out of hockey into the mainstream with the ‘Won’t someone think of the children!’ crowd pushing for criminal charges.

As has been noted, that so many Canuck fans (and I’ve been as guilty of this as anyone) who are like ‘Ha, remember when Bure hunted down that dirty opposing player miles away from the play and knocked him out cold? That was awesome!’ will also claim ‘Ugh, remember when Bertuzzi hunted down that dirty opposing player miles away from the play and knocked him out cold? That was terrible!’ is ever-so-slightly hypocritical.

Dude, what made Bertuzzi’s hit much worse was the fact that it was premeditated. There is no comparison when intent is considered.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Dude, what made Bertuzzi’s hit much worse was the fact that it was premeditated. There is no comparison when intent is considered.

Yeah, I can agree with this to some extent. Bure's was premeditated too, however. It's the difference between 1st and 2nd degree murder.

 

[Pip]

New account goes after MS in multiple threads. I think I’ve seen this one before

 

[Peen]

It is heartening to see Zach seemingly in control of his life and thriving once again at hockey. I was thrilled when we traded for him but that faded as he slowly turned into a bit of a loose cannon, perhaps in an attempt to become Bert v 2.0 which is seemingly what this entire fanbase wanted him to become. I approved of the trade (but not the return) when we jettisoned him and was saddened by his brief stint in Montreal so I have to say that I'm really happy for him... that is except when we play against him. Then he's a pain in the ass. Good for him...

I don't think the Bert 2.0 is true for HFboards.

I know for a fact I wasn't the only one who said he was just a big playmaker with a tough side who can help create space.

This again goes back to pro scouting failure of this regime where they have a picture of a player and if you don't fit that picture, you are deemed valueless. Hence, the trade for the "protypical 4th line winger" in Prust. Sutter for Bonino. etc.

 

[Hit the post]

I don't think the Bert 2.0 is true for HFboards.

I know for a fact I wasn't the only one who said he was just a big playmaker with a tough side who can help create space.

This again goes back to pro scouting failure of this regime where they have a picture of a player and if you don't fit that picture, you are deemed valueless. Hence, the trade for the "protypical 4th line winger" in Prust. Sutter for Bonino. etc.

Brandon Sutter though really doesn't play like your "typical Sutter".

 

[kaiser matias]

Bert could've avoided all that by just turning Moore around and/or hitting him from the front. Sneak attacks from behind are ALWAYS going to look bad.

Recall that Bertuzzi was trying to get Moore to fight, and in the lead-up to the punch they were face-to-face, before Moore turned his back. I've felt that the hit was out of frustration by Bertuzzi that Moore refused to fight him, not explicitly malicious and not made out to be what it was (a career ending injury). I also would argue that he didn't expect Moore to drop, and thus did not drive Moore's head to the ice, and that the ensuing pileup also did not help anything.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

Geez, Guddy is having one of those games vs the Jets tonight...

 

[BHD]

Geez, Guddy is having one of those games vs the Jets tonight...

I just came here to eat some humble pie. He was fine last season, but he's been baaaaad to start this season.

 

[MS]

Dude, what made Bertuzzi’s hit much worse was the fact that it was premeditated. There is no comparison when intent is considered.

It’s exactly the same as Bure’s.

Bertuzzi didn’t go into that game planning on suckering Moore in the back of the head. But the game turned into a blowout, Bertuzzi took the opportunity to challenge Moore, Moore skated away and a frustrated and stupid Bertuzzi chased him and punched him.

Bure grew tired of Churla’s antics, stalked him and KOed him.

If the Bure play happened today, he’d be suspended 20-30 games.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

I just came here to eat some humble pie. He was fine last season, but he's been baaaaad to start this season.

He's like a decent veteran AHL injury call up. He'll give you stretches of competent play if sheltered properly but the level of play eventually catches up to him and it falls apart on him. Nice guy though. You would like to see him to well.

 

[BHD]

He's like a decent veteran AHL injury call up. He'll give you stretches of competent play if sheltered properly but the level of play eventually catches up to him and it falls apart on him. Nice guy though. You would like to see him to well.

The thing tonight, though, is he started him on his OFF-SIDE. The coaching staff set him up to fail.

 

[Megaterio Llamas]

The thing tonight, though, is he started him on his OFF-SIDE. The coaching staff set him up to fail.

Wow. That's insane. Guddy needs every advantage you can give him just to keep his chin above water level.

The early play where he put himself out of position trying to make the big hit and the Jets scored was classic stuff, sadly

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

I didn’t suggest that crimes were inherently premeditated.

You can debate this all you’d like. He was charged and pleaded guilty to assault.

Apparently this was common in the 1990s and 2000s. I’d just like to be reminded of the similar cases.

 

[RobertKron]

It’s exactly the same as Bure’s.

Bertuzzi didn’t go into that game planning on suckering Moore in the back of the head. But the game turned into a blowout, Bertuzzi took the opportunity to challenge Moore, Moore skated away and a frustrated and stupid Bertuzzi chased him and punched him.

Bure grew tired of Churla’s antics, stalked him and KOed him.

If the Bure play happened today, he’d be suspended 20-30 games.

Honestly the Bertuzzi thing was probably something of a watershed moment for the cultural perception and acceptance of hockey as some kind of genuine blood sport. Going into that game, you knew that someone like Bertuzzi had to beat the shit out of Moore. Not just fight him to a spirited draw or whatever, but the fans, hockey world, the whole f***ing universe basically, expected and basically required this game to be the red wings v. Lemieux 2.0.

Then it happened, went really really wrong, and folks kind of had that moment of awful after-the-fact self-realization that maybe they don’t actually believe that a guy should get executed at centre ice with antiquated Don Cherry-type rhetoric as the judge and jury.

 

[Bojack Horvatman]

Could only post 3 media. Another one that could be considered assault as it well beyond a hockey play.