For a Few Dollars More (CBA & Lockout Discussion)- Part VI

[Killion]

Dude back off, I refuse to take sides.

Fair enough. But tell ya what, someone tells me we cant afford to pay you "X" because fundamentally though your playing in Vancouver or Chicago and they can afford it, you have to be willing to take a cut AND give up Arbitration etc because our business is unsustainable without it... meanwhile the numbers provided? Totally bogus. How would that make you feel? Im serious. Wouldnt you just be a "tad" upset?

 

[CK17]

This is 100% bang on. The NHL currently does not have an offer and that is the way it is right now.

IMO the NHL does have an offer ready, but they need the PA to present theirs first. If the NHL gave their offer it would be 2 in row from them and that's a clear sign of weakness. That's why I think they're pushing the PA so hard to give them anything.

 

[Killion]

That's why I think they're pushing the PA so hard to give them anything.

... ya, Blind Man's Bluff.

 

[kdb209]

Even if the value of the contract is reduced by a new CBA, the contract is still honored! If you read an SPC you will see that the players agree to have their contracts modified if a new CBA is in effect. So if they sue, they will lose horribly because then its them trying to not honor the contract.

*EDIT - upon further review I am uncertain whether or not such language actually exists in a SPC.

It does.

18. The Club and the Player severally and mutually promise and agree to be legally bound by
the League Rules and by any Collective Bargaining Agreement that has been or may be entered
into between the member clubs of the League and the NHLPA, and by all of the terms and
provisions thereof, copies of which shall be open and available for inspection by the Club, its
directors and officers, and the Player, at the main office of the League, the main office of the
Club and the main office of the NHLPA. This SPC is entered into subject to the CBA between
the NHL and the NHLPA and any provisions of this SPC inconsistent with such CBA are
superseded by the provisions of the CBA.

 

[GoSensGo6172]

The bottom line is that it shouldn't make any difference at all who makes the first offer. The side that presents the first offer that leads to progress and eventually an agreement can also be painted as the hero as well.

 

[Boltsfan2029]

... really. your position is absurd Spezza. The PA doesnt have the FACTS. The frikin playbook from which the NHL is shoving its load of Malarkey down its throats is pure FICTION. Hocus pocus numbers....

The league gave the PA thousands upon thousands of pages of financials a while back. Are you saying those are all falsified?

 

[Lobotomizer*]

The league gave the PA thousands upon thousands of pages of financials a while back. Are you saying those are all falsified?

Not fiction - just a book missing several chapters.

 

[Killion]

The league gave the PA thousands upon thousands of pages of financials a while back. Are you saying those are all falsified?

... for almost a year the PA requested those documents. Who in their right mind drops 78,000 pages of financials on your desk literally on the eve, the night before negotiations are set to begin on a new CBA? That the documents were penned by ergodic accountants & writers of fiction I have no doubt.

 

[Harry22]

"As a last-ditch effort to avert a lockout, owners and players met again on June 30, 2011, to negotiate, but both sides failed to reach a resolution on key issues like salary cap and BRI splits. Both Stern and Hunter said that the two sides remained far apart. The owners demanded a larger share, claiming that they were losing money. The players, on the other hand, were willing to make concessions, but they refused to completely cave in to owners' demands. Negotiations broke off, and the CBA expired at midnight."

Sounds very similar.

 

[kdb209]

Wut? If it's unlawful the why doesn't the PA sue?

Because it's not unlawful if the NHLPA agrees to it in the next CBA.

 

[Nalens Oga]

Maybe don't give the NHL exactly what they want but come as close to it as possible.

That would be idiotic. In their next offer let's say that they guess that to get the deal done, they need to make 20 concessions. They might make 5 of those on that offer, not 15. That's a really simplified way of looking at it but their offer will be the same increment of improvement as the NHL's 2nd offer. Probably less of a change since the NHL's 1st offer was a bit of a low-ball one and the 2nd is the one they should've started with. It'll also look like the 2nd offer after the lawyer speak (the NHL threw in escrow money coming back to the NHL in their offer making it look like they're conceding when they weren't so the PA will probably do something similar where it looks like they're taking a roll back but in reality they aren't or it's smaller than what it appears).

The PA havn't moved off their Aug 14 offer so I thinks it's time for them to ****.

I think we're all buying too much into this "side A makes an offer and it leaks to the media and then we analyze it and wait for side B." But that probably won't be the case this time because Fehr will probably make fewer offers but spend more actual hours negotiating. Those negotiations aren't formal papers leaked to the press but they probably are talking and agreeing on things and moving it forward.

 

[pepty]

... for almost a year the PA requested those documents. Who in their right mind drops 78,000 pages of financials on your desk literally on the eve, the night before negotiations are set to begin on a new CBA? That the documents were penned by ergodic accountants & writers of fiction I have no doubt.

The PA are just following the same play book that the union lawyer in Ottawa used when trying to stall the Lansdowne project; requesting a lot of documents is often just a fishing expedition and a stalling tactic.And whoever demands the docs can complain about the amount of time they take to produce them and how much time it takes to go through them and if they don't produce them, that they are holding things back.

There is considerable time as well as expense in retrieving all these documents.

And then once they have the documents they can do as killion is doing and just claiming that they are all a pack of lies anyway presumably because the NHL owners and executives are all liars in his opinion-though you would assume the documents must have been audited somewhere along the line and I am sure if there had been any discrepancies had been found we would have heard about them by now.

.

 

[sixgunsdad]

... ya, Blind Man's Bluff.

Describes perfectly the 3 I've been a part of.
In the end no matter what side your on someone is going to be mad at you for compromising/failing. Best advice I can give is to stay out of the inner workings and just ***** about the results

 

[njdevil26]

My take... the NHL knows it's time to compromise before destroying more of the season. The NHL wants to see what the PA is willing to give in on and what the NHL can get away with on their next and hopefully final offer.

 

[GoSensGo6172]

My take... the NHL knows it's time to compromise before destroying more of the season. The NHL wants to see what the PA is willing to give in on and what the NHL can get away with on their next and hopefully final offer.

Exactly.....

 

[rdawg1234]

My take... the NHL knows it's time to compromise before destroying more of the season. The NHL wants to see what the PA is willing to give in on and what the NHL can get away with on their next and hopefully final offer.

interesting and possible.

with word that we lose the season after mid-november, we will most likely be seeing a final offer come soon before the season is lost.

 

[TheTakedown]

My take... the NHL knows it's time to compromise before destroying more of the season. The NHL wants to see what the PA is willing to give in on and what the NHL can get away with on their next and hopefully final offer.

"As a last-ditch effort to avert a lockout, owners and players met again on June 30, 2011, to negotiate, but both sides failed to reach a resolution on key issues like salary cap and BRI splits. Both Stern and Hunter said that the two sides remained far apart. The owners demanded a larger share, claiming that they were losing money. The players, on the other hand, were willing to make concessions, but they refused to completely cave in to owners' demands. Negotiations broke off, and the CBA expired at midnight."

Sounds very similar.

Both of these here are direct, to the point, and probably what will happen....


Remember that lockouts are not normally supposed to last an entire season... It happened to the NHL once, but it doesn't mean it will happen again... Remmber the only 2 sports to lose an entire season were Arena Football and the NHL... Lockouts are NOT supposed to happen for lengthy periods of time, and we sure got screwed last time... Doesn't mean this will happen again..

I still fully believe its in the best interests of both the players and the owners to play before the end of November.... Bettman knows another lost season means no further revenue growth for the next several years at the least, if ever... And the players know that they cannot survive without pay after escrow has been used up from their bank accounts...

I also believe this is in the best interests of both parties to ensure we don't have to deal with this again in the near future... Bettman does not want another one of these on his resume, and the players don't really want to lose another year
(lets be honest.... would you pass on you $6 million for your "rights"? These are dummy players we are talking about)

Both sides are talking, both sides are attempting to negotiate (albeit poorly)... Proposals are DEFINITELY in the works. Things are going to work out...

perhaps I'm too optimistic, but I cannot see a lost season again. I just can't... It would absolutely murder the NHL...

 

[Killion]

Best advice I can give is to stay out of the inner workings and just ***** about the results

... the human condition being what it is, fickle & transitory, does truth even matter? Better to walk. Absolutely.

 

[Lobotomizer*]

Both of these here are direct, to the point, and probably what will happen....


Remember that lockouts are not normally supposed to last an entire season... It happened to the NHL once, but it doesn't mean it will happen again... Remmber the only 2 sports to lose an entire season were Arena Football and the NHL... Lockouts are NOT supposed to happen for lengthy periods of time, and we sure got screwed last time... Doesn't mean this will happen again..

I still fully believe its in the best interests of both the players and the owners to play before the end of November.... Bettman knows another lost season means no further revenue growth for the next several years at the least, if ever... And the players know that they cannot survive without pay after escrow has been used up from their bank accounts...

I also believe this is in the best interests of both parties to ensure we don't have to deal with this again in the near future... Bettman does not want another one of these on his resume, and the players don't really want to lose another year
(lets be honest.... would you pass on you $6 million for your "rights"? These are dummy players we are talking about)

Both sides are talking, both sides are attempting to negotiate (albeit poorly)... Proposals are DEFINITELY in the works. Things are going to work out...

perhaps I'm too optimistic, but I cannot see a lost season again. I just can't... It would absolutely murder the NHL...[/QUOTE]

Ironically, that's what was said in 2004...which was followed by substantial financial increases across the league.

 

[mossey3535]

The league, as a whole, has more revenue than expenses. Ergo, the league is profitable.

Individual teams, on the other hand, there's a discrepancy between those that are close or make a profit, and those that CANNOT.

Really? Ok, if the league as a whole was healthy and there was a reduced disparity between those making a profit and those did CANNOT, and that the number of teams not making a profit was reasonably small and those that weren't making a profit were ok with doing so within the framework of the league and the larger context of their entire business empires.

*sigh*

 

[TheTakedown]

Both of these here are direct, to the point, and probably what will happen....


Remember that lockouts are not normally supposed to last an entire season... It happened to the NHL once, but it doesn't mean it will happen again... Remmber the only 2 sports to lose an entire season were Arena Football and the NHL... Lockouts are NOT supposed to happen for lengthy periods of time, and we sure got screwed last time... Doesn't mean this will happen again..

I still fully believe its in the best interests of both the players and the owners to play before the end of November.... Bettman knows another lost season means no further revenue growth for the next several years at the least, if ever... And the players know that they cannot survive without pay after escrow has been used up from their bank accounts...

I also believe this is in the best interests of both parties to ensure we don't have to deal with this again in the near future... Bettman does not want another one of these on his resume, and the players don't really want to lose another year
(lets be honest.... would you pass on you $6 million for your "rights"? These are dummy players we are talking about)

Both sides are talking, both sides are attempting to negotiate (albeit poorly)... Proposals are DEFINITELY in the works. Things are going to work out...

perhaps I'm too optimistic, but I cannot see a lost season again. I just can't... It would absolutely murder the NHL...[/QUOTE]

Ironically, that's what was said in 2004...which was followed by substantial financial increases across the league.

but think about EVERYTHING that had changed... Hockey became a minimal contact sport... While still tough, parity was established, fighting kept down to a minimum... Salary cap allowed all teams to equally compete... We had NEW HOCKEY... it was different, it wasn't like the old. It was revitalized, refreshed, given a makeover, a renovation...

All of that is already in place... I'm not saying there won't be a spike in revenues in the first few months it starts up... of course there will.... But at this point what else is there left to do? The sport is as competitive and balanced as it can possibly be at this point.

 

[rdawg1234]

in fairness even with a lockout there will at least be some kind of financial increases with the relocation of Pheonix to a much bigger market in Quebec or possibly even Seattle.

It would be an increase equivalent to that of the winnipeg year which was substantial wasnt it?

other than that it's questionable and another full-year lockout within 7 years of the last is a bit too soon between lockouts(Many people were probably not around during the 95 half-season lockout to care, but newer casual fans that experienced the 04-05 lockout are probably not all that happy with a league that just had yet another one.).

 

[Lobotomizer*]

Really? Ok, if the league as a whole was healthy and there was a reduced disparity between those making a profit and those did CANNOT, and that the number of teams not making a profit was reasonably small and those that weren't making a profit were ok with doing so within the framework of the league and the larger context of their entire business empires.

*sigh*

You have begun a question that has no end... What is it that the teams that aren't making a profit that you are attempting to address should do?

 

[Lobotomizer*]

but think about EVERYTHING that had changed... Hockey became a minimal contact sport... While still tough, parity was established, fighting kept down to a minimum... Salary cap allowed all teams to equally compete... We had NEW HOCKEY... it was different, it wasn't like the old. It was revitalized, refreshed, given a makeover, a renovation...

All of that is already in place... I'm not saying there won't be a spike in revenues in the first few months it starts up... of course there will.... But at this point what else is there left to do? The sport is as competitive and balanced as it can possibly be at this point.

This lockout has nothing to do with the style of hockey that will result after the lockout - this is all about revenue. So did the lockout in 2004.

 

[mossey3535]

You have begun a question that has no end... What is it that the teams that aren't making a profit that you are attempting to address should do?

I was just responding to Lady Stanley picking on my choice of words which were admittedly imperfect. I said I would be happy as an owner to go to 50/50 if the owners were making 57/43 if the 'league was profitable' and she chose not to go with the spirit of what I intended. So I qualified as much as I could in response.