For a Few Dollars More (CBA & Lockout Discussion)- Part VI

[Confucius]

That's a big restaurant.

Not really. 2 shifts, 7 days a week, cooks, waitressess, busboys, hosts, supervisors,

 

[Krishna]

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN

#CBA Bill Daly said league has been given indication PA is working on a proposal. League has urged them to make it.

Didn't they have one ready and the NHLPA voted against proposing it?

 

[CBJWerenski8]

this whole negotiation has been planned according to the incremental cancelation schedule. Nothing "REally" needs to be done until there is threat of more games lost. These deals come together quickly. They need to agree in principle and the rest is gravy.

the buyer is always going to buy when the deals are the sweetest. end of fiscal quarter = discount.. end of fiscal year = bigger discount.

Fehr will wait until the end of each cancellation period. whenever Bettman can officially drop the hammer for more games lost is when the sides will really put it on the table

Won't they have to cancel more games next week?

 

[mossey3535]

It's an entertainment thing, as the product is people.

And it still didn't answer the question if the CBA split was 57/43 owners, would you be demanding that 50/50 is fair?

Yes. This isn't even a challenging question, as the reason that most of these unions were formed in the first place was to get back to a fair place % wise from the early days of pro sports when the owners were probably making 90% of the money.

Historically pro sports has swung higher and higher in terms of player %, and now it is trending back towards the owners for various reasons that have been covered - making money from resale is going out and the 'cash cow' model is back, etc.

The very existence of a union means that 45% owners is probably the lowest possible split that will be accepted by a pro sport PA unless the league is clearly on the edge of annihilation.

The NFL CBA will never again be achieved in any other sport and was created by a unique set of circumstances. So 48% players and non-guaranteed contracts that the NFL has now is the ultimate pro-owner deal and again would probably never be agreed to by any other pro PA in any other sport.

 

[JAX]

It's an entertainment thing, as the product is people.

And it still didn't answer the question if the CBA split was 57/43 owners, would you be demanding that 50/50 is fair?

of course 50-50 is fair but I think it should take a few years to get there so the players don't have to take a big rollback rightaway. But they won't even negotiate anything that is a rollback so that's why we are in the rut we are now.

 

[SpeedyLazaro]

Won't they have to cancel more games next week?

precisely .. which means they will push forward tomorrow and then probably through the weekend and early next week.. I think the real deadline will be after 1 month is lost

 

[TheTakedown]

Yes. This isn't even a challenging question, as the reason that most of these unions were formed in the first place was to get back to a fair place % wise from the early days of pro sports when the owners were probably making 90% of the money.

Historically pro sports has swung higher and higher in terms of player %, and now it is trending back towards the owners for various reasons that have been covered - making money from resale is going out and the 'cash cow' model is back, etc.

The very existence of a union means that 45% owners is probably the lowest possible split that will be accepted by a pro sport PA unless the league is clearly on the edge of annihilation.

The NFL CBA will never again be achieved in any other sport and was created by a unique set of circumstances. So 48% players and non-guaranteed contracts that the NFL has now is the ultimate pro-owner deal and again would probably never be agreed to by any other pro PA in any other sport.

Speaking of the NFL CBA...

I found this from wiki:

That last labor agreement gave players 57 percent of the league’s $9 billion in revenue, after the owners took more than $1 billion for operating and development costs of the league

Why doesn't the NHLPA pursue this? it

 

[LadyStanley]

If the league were profitable, then yes.

The league, as a whole, has more revenue than expenses. Ergo, the league is profitable.

Individual teams, on the other hand, there's a discrepancy between those that are close or make a profit, and those that CANNOT.

Won't they have to cancel more games next week?

I'm guessing Thursday, through end of month (two weeks out).

 

[albator71]

I'm assuming it is a negotiating tactic, but why won't the NHLPA give a counter proposal? What advantage is it to them to not counter?

Well if you remember in 04 the PA proposed a 24% rollback thinking it would end the lockout but the owners took that 24% in put in their back pocket and said thank you and the lockout continued.

So you can't put your best proposal on the table to soon are the other side will use it against you take more from you.

 

[Crows*]

I like how the nhlpa whines about the 24 percent rollback and cap when they agreed to it.

 

[Ari91]

Katie Strang ‏@KatieStrangESPN

#CBA Bill Daly said league has been given indication PA is working on a proposal. League has urged them to make it.

Meh, at least it's something.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

I like how the nhlpa whines about the 24 percent rollback and cap when they agreed to it.

I love how the NHL whines about player salaries being tied to league revenue when they agreed to it.

 

[Confucius]

I like how the nhlpa whines about the 24 percent rollback and cap when they agreed to it.

Exactly why they shouldn't settle for less than 57%

 

[Haute Couturier]

How many indisutries/sports...whatever, do the employees make alot more then their employers? Most employers should be able to control their labour costs to a certain extent. Not to many people think the poor PA is suffering and not treated "fair"

The thing is sports are a different animal from normal industries because in this case the employees are the main draw. A person won't become a customer of McDonald's depending on whether Joe or Steve is going to cook their burger, but people do decide to become a customer of the NHL to see Crosby, Oveckin, Stamkos, Giroux, etc.

I am not saying they need more, but I don't think it's terribly outrageous for them to want more. They risk their health to put butts in seats.

To answer your question. In European soccer they spent more of their revenues on players because they have a true free market. You have clubs losing money to buy talent.

 

[jetster]

Another 1 of your brilliant analogies..... you should pull out the wife 1 again.

ROFLMAO, when i was reading that post i was thinking wtf...

 

[Legionnaire11]

If I owned a restaurant that had 60 employees. I'd be happy if my end equaled what 40 of my employees made let alone all 60.

Not really. 2 shifts, 7 days a week, cooks, waitressess, busboys, hosts, supervisors,

I used to run a 24 hour restaurant... staff of 18. Upstaffed to 20 for really busy times (holidays).

Also, restaurant is a bad example. There you want to spend 1/3 on food, 1/3 on operating and 1/3 on payroll. In the NHL the Players themselves are part of your food and operating (the product).

 

[GoSensGo6172]

Daly says about the PA offer: "We hear you're working on a proposal well than make it, let's not stand on formalities, you got it than present it so we can move the process forward"

This is 100% bang on. The NHL currently does not have an offer and that is the way it is right now. The NHLPA however DOES have an offer, so what the hell are they waiting for? Seriously, it's really become a game of "**** or get off the pot" it can help get things going, really don't think it can hurt. Maybe don't give the NHL exactly what they want but come as close to it as possible.

 

[tmunnuch]

Sorry that's not how things are done. Both parties signed off on the dotted line, that is a signed contract and it's honestly unlawful for a company as every league is to go to the player and say "Yeah that contract you signed a few months back, we want you to give some back"

Wut? If it's unlawful the why doesn't the PA sue?

 

[Mike Jones]

Didn't they have one ready and the NHLPA voted against proposing it?

I thought they had something in a drawer somewhere. They should just whip it out and show the league what they've got.

 

[JAX]

Daly says about the PA offer: "We hear you're working on a proposal well than make it, let's not stand on formalities, you got it than present it so we can move the process forward"

This is 100% bang on. The NHL currently does not have an offer and that is the way it is right now. The NHLPA however DOES have an offer, so what the hell are they waiting for? Seriously, it's really become a game of "**** or get off the pot" it can help get things going, really don't think it can hurt. Maybe don't give the NHL exactly what they want but come as close to it as possible.

The PA havn't moved off their Aug 14 offer so I thinks it's time for them to ****.

 

[buggs]

I used to run a 24 hour restaurant... staff of 18. Upstaffed to 20 for really busy times (holidays).

Also, restaurant is a bad example. There you want to spend 1/3 on food, 1/3 on operating and 1/3 on payroll. In the NHL the Players themselves are part of your food and operating (the product).

I assume at that ratio you didn't make any profit, since all your revenue was tied up in equal portions on operating costs. Must have sucked for the owner to have a place that basically never made any return on their investment.

 

[Killion]

Daly says about the PA offer: "We hear you're working on a proposal well than make it, let's not stand on formalities, you got it than present it so we can move the process forward".

... really. your position is absurd Spezza. The PA doesnt have the FACTS. The frikin playbook from which the NHL is shoving its load of Malarkey down its throats is pure FICTION. Hocus pocus numbers.... yet you suggest they just tip their hands in a game of Blinds Mans Bluff, make a proposal based on faulty numbers and just blithely carry on like idiots? The NHL accepts those ignorant numbers and guess what? We got a deal. I cant believe anyone would advocate for such a situation... mind blowing.

 

[pucka lucka]

... really. your position is absurd Spezza. The PA doesnt have the FACTS. The frikin playbook from which the NHL is shoving its load of Malarkey down its throats is pure FICTION. Hocus pocus numbers.... yet you suggest they just tip their hands in a game of Blinds Mans Bluff, make a proposal based on faulty numbers and just blithely carry on like idiots? The NHL accepts those ignorant numbers and guess what? We got a deal. I cant believe anyone would advocate for such a situation... mind blowing.

What on earth are you talking about? Tipping their hand? wow.

 

[GoSensGo6172]

... really. your position is absurd Spezza. The PA doesnt have the FACTS. The frikin playbook from which the NHL is shoving its load of Malarkey down its throats is pure FICTION. Hocus pocus numbers.... yet you suggest they just tip their hands in a game of Blinds Mans Bluff, make a proposal based on faulty numbers and just blithely carry on like idiots? The NHL accepts those ignorant numbers and guess what? We got a deal. I cant believe anyone would advocate for such a situation... mind blowing.

Dude back off, I refuse to take sides. Both sides have their valid points and both sound absurd for different reasons. All I was advocating is that ONE side makes an offer. Whoever has the offer ready to go and has been working it should be presenting it. Just happens to be the PA at the moment. This isin't a game, it's not as if they have to take turns and it's not as if one side holds any more power than the other. They need each other, they need to start seeing eye to eye. I don't what this blind man's bluff crap is that you talk about, but they should be OPEN to hearing each other out and reaching common ground, that is only going to happen once there is a proposal to work off. That simple!

 

[GoSensGo6172]

What on earth are you talking about? Tipping their hand? wow.

This guy is so blatantly pro player and has no clue what he's talking about.

The players are the ones who are going to have to make the first major concession to at least get the ball rolling. And NO what they came up with in August/September does not even begin to count.