For a Few Dollars More (CBA & Lockout Discussion)- Part VI

[mouser]

Continued from previous thread.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1265791

Hey - I'll cheat and drop this here:

09-10-2012 Sides 'a long way apart' (MOD: CBA negotiations status thread)
09-13-2012 Lockout Looming (MOD: CBA negotiations status thread) - Part II
09-15-2012 No last ditch attempt to avoid lockout (CBA Negotiations status thread) - Part III
09-21-2012 Only game being played is the blame game(CBA Negotiation discussion thread) - Part IV
09-30-2012 When this tree fell in the forest, who noticed? (CBA & Lockout Discussion) - Part V
10-05-2012 For a Few Dollars More (CBA & Lockout Discussion)- Part VI

Coming soon: index of other Lockout threads.

Click to read more...

 

[MaskedSonja]

The NHLPA keeps saying "yea would play the year under the old CBA"-I've noticed no reporter has asked them "would you do it with a signed legal document to the NHL saying you will NOT strike at any time in regular season or playoffs, and if you do it would incur HUGE penalties?"

The response would probably be "well, I don't want to deal in speculation...."

 

[marcel snapshot]

The NHLPA keeps saying "yea would play the year under the old CBA"-I've noticed no reporter has asked them "would you do it with a signed legal document to the NHL saying you will NOT strike at any time in regular season or playoffs, and if you do it would incur HUGE penalties?"

The response would probably be "well, I don't want to deal in speculation...."

Someone should ask that question, and if the PA can't say unequivocally yes, then yeah they should shut about about the we'll play under the existing agreement. And if they can yes to that, then they ought to be making that point on their own, because it would give them so leverage PR-wise (for whatever that's worth, and it continues to dwindle on a daily basis) vis-a-vis the owners.

 

[CerebralGenesis]

or even play without pay til the CBA is signed and then get backpay for what they did play. Of course you have to agree to the backpay before so that would take another 2 seasons before getting there.

 

[rdawg1234]

The NHLPA keeps saying "yea would play the year under the old CBA"-I've noticed no reporter has asked them "would you do it with a signed legal document to the NHL saying you will NOT strike at any time in regular season or playoffs, and if you do it would incur HUGE penalties?"

The response would probably be "well, I don't want to deal in speculation...."

I dont think allowing them to play another year under the CBA is a good idea in any shape or form.

They want to change the CBA, not pay the players another year of 57%, another year of massive contracts etc. while revenue continues to grow.

On top of that, the players were given all year to come negotiate, they said it was distracting during hockey, who's to say they wouldnt pull the same thing and wait until may-june to start seriously negotiating again. It would create an endless cycle and the owners would have much less leverage.

 

[Halibut]

The NHLPA keeps saying "yea would play the year under the old CBA"-I've noticed no reporter has asked them "would you do it with a signed legal document to the NHL saying you will NOT strike at any time in regular season or playoffs, and if you do it would incur HUGE penalties?"

The response would probably be "well, I don't want to deal in speculation...."

I heard Elliot Friedman on the radio and he has asked apparently and heard different stories depending on who he's talked to. He said he's trying to track the info down and will report once he's gotten an answer.

 

[mouser]

The NHLPA keeps saying "yea would play the year under the old CBA"-I've noticed no reporter has asked them "would you do it with a signed legal document to the NHL saying you will NOT strike at any time in regular season or playoffs, and if you do it would incur HUGE penalties?"

The response would probably be "well, I don't want to deal in speculation...."

One would assume they'd be willing to sign such a document. By all accounts the union would be happy to play under the current CBA for many more years if that were possible.

The owners have made it clear they aren't willing to continue under the old CBA. Playing under the old CBA while they continue to negotiate gives up all the leverage the owners currently have via the lockout.

 

[MaskedSonja]

I dont think allowing them to play another year under the CBA is a good idea in any shape or form.

They want to change the CBA, not pay the players another year of 57%, another year of massive contracts etc. while revenue continues to grow.

On top of that, the players were given all year to come negotiate, they said it was distracting during hockey, who's to say they wouldnt pull the same thing and wait until may-june to start seriously negotiating again. It would create an endless cycle and the owners would have much less leverage.

That's a good point made, and yea we could be doing this all over again.

I just would like to see how "badly" the players would actually play-a year under league minimum, with the rest of their monies received post playoff performance? Under conditions not to strike? ect....as marcel said, unless it is absolute yes, then be quiet about it.

 

[rdawg1234]

or even play without pay til the CBA is signed and then get backpay for what they did play. Of course you have to agree to the backpay before so that would take another 2 seasons before getting there.

Yea the only thing that would make sense would be to let them play but under lesser terms. Offering a one year deal, but at 50/50(hey, it's more than getting nothing) and they must negotiate while they play.

 

[MaskedSonja]

One would assume they'd be willing to sign such a document. By all accounts the union would be happy to play under the current CBA for many more years if that were possible.

If they are, perhaps talk it over, put it out to the media they'd be willing to play under conditions that would prevent them from striking. At the very least its some PR that puts the ball back in NHL's court in public opinion IMO

 

[cbcwpg]

One would assume they'd be willing to sign such a document. By all accounts the union would be happy to play under the current CBA for many more years if that were possible.

The owners have made it clear they aren't willing to continue under the old CBA. Playing under the old CBA while they continue to negotiate gives up all the leverage the owners currently have via the lockout.

I agree. I think the NHL had / has no desire to continue operating under the current CBA no matter what paperwork Fehr was willing to sign re: not striking. IMO the NHL never even asked Fehr, because they were not going to keep playing and negotiating.

 

[MaskedSonja]

I agree. I think the NHL had / has no desire to continue operating under the current CBA no matter what paperwork Fehr was willing to sign re: not striking. IMO the NHL never even asked Fehr, because they were not going to keep playing and negotiating.

It would be interesting in some way if the NHLPA could show that type of thing PR wise to the public, and put the optics that it's the NHL who are the only ones being stubborn about it all and inflexible. Might not make much diff in negotiations (except maybe more acrimony lol)-but interesting none the less.

 

[Flamingo]

I heard Elliot Friedman on the radio and he has asked apparently and heard different stories depending on who he's talked to. He said he's trying to track the info down and will report once he's gotten an answer.

Friedman asked a hypothetical question to various players and got different answers? What are you talking about?

 

[Hockey Crazy]

It would be interesting in some way if the NHLPA could show that type of thing PR wise to the public, and put the optics that it's the NHL who are the only ones being stubborn about it all and inflexible. Might not make much diff in negotiations (except maybe more acrimony lol)-but interesting none the less.

What would be better is if they stop posturing and get to business. Fehr and Bettman's job is to sign a deal, so they should really be talking non stop and brainstorming ideas. Instead we have silence while all the fans come up with countless proposals that would probably solve everyone's problems. These two should both be force to step down... some new blood on either side would get a deal done for sure.

 

[cbcwpg]

It would be interesting in some way if the NHLPA could show that type of thing PR wise to the public, and put the optics that it's the NHL who are the only ones being stubborn about it all and inflexible. Might not make much diff in negotiations (except maybe more acrimony lol)-but interesting none the less.

Coming from another direction.... Fehr has shown that he wants the players involved in the meetings and negotiations, yet once the season was underway, it would be next to impossible to get the players together to talk about things. So was it all just rhetoric from Fehr because he himself was never going to ask the NHL to keep playing while they negotiate, because he knew it would be very difficult to do so? Yet because the NHL locked them out, he can point and say "Bad NHL".

 

[NickyMaz]

From the Twitterverse
@JSportsnet Bill Daly just confirmed that he was in Toronto to meet withe the NHLPA today.
@reporterchris CBA talks have quietly resumed in Toronto with a meeting of the Big Four: Bettman, Daly, Fehr brothers.
@Real_ESPNLeBrun: NHL and NHLPA met in Toronto today. Slated to meet again over the weekend”

 

[SJeasy]

From Dado,

If player income is going to be tied to HRR, then they have every right to insist on a voice in matters that affect HRR significantly. Realignment, relocation and expansion are examples of issues that qualify.

I have thought about this and agree in principle. However, the time frames don't match. The window for franchise success is much larger than the window for a player's career. I do think the players have to invest in the future of the game which is expanding the footprint of the NHL. To that end, I do think the NHL (and PA) has to be much more strict in the leeway given to its franchises. I think the window for success or a failure of a franchise has to be in the neighborhood of two decades and the benchmark needs to be in terms of growth rather than numbers relative to the most successful. They need what amounts to GM certification which might include as much as two year apprenticeships with successful teams. They need to be much more circumspect on arena deals which can bury a team before it gets out of the gate. They need to place more emphasis on local ownership as that is a key to garnering local sponsorships. Ideally they would add hockey ops to GM certification. Evaluation of all of the non-player parts of the team in terms of efficacy and emphasize to new owners that they must watch and evaluate regularly all parts of their operation when they assume ownership and be ready to change out those parts if non-player personnel are not meeting job performance expectations.

 

[Hockey Crazy]

From the Twitterverse
@JSportsnet Bill Daly just confirmed that he was in Toronto to meet withe the NHLPA today.
@reporterchris CBA talks have quietly resumed in Toronto with a meeting of the Big Four: Bettman, Daly, Fehr brothers.
@Real_ESPNLeBrun: NHL and NHLPA met in Toronto today. Slated to meet again over the weekend”

Good news. Hopefully something meaningful comes out of this. They need to establish what the most important things are to both sides and try to each compromise to show the other side that they are willing to work together.

 

[rdawg1234]

From the Twitterverse
@JSportsnet Bill Daly just confirmed that he was in Toronto to meet withe the NHLPA today.
@reporterchris CBA talks have quietly resumed in Toronto with a meeting of the Big Four: Bettman, Daly, Fehr brothers.
@Real_ESPNLeBrun: NHL and NHLPA met in Toronto today. Slated to meet again over the weekendâ€

hopefully this leads to something.

 

[CerebralGenesis]

I'll take the PA submitting that proposal as a start. Then the league can counter and move towards the middle hopefully. Crazy how this back and forth negotiating goes.

 

[cbcwpg]

“We know we’re going to have to take a hit,†Capitals defenseman Karl Alzner told CSNWashington.com “It’s just how big of a hit we need to take.â€

“I think both sides know what their next proposal is, it’s just who wants to give it first,†Alzner said. “The owners know what their bottom percentage is and I’m sure Don [Fehr] knows what’s going to be a good one for us economically.

“But who’s going to be the first one to bite the bullet? No one wants to lose the negotiation. We understand we’re definitely not going to win it.â€

http://www.csnwashington.com/hockey...ont-win-labor-war?blockID=784509&feedID=10283

 

[Marc the Habs Fan]

Interesting that they met today without any leak of it until mid-afternoon.

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun
So to recap: unannounced meeting between Big Four negotiators in Toronto, both sides plan to keep in touch but no formal talks planned yet

 

[Hockey Crazy]

“We know we’re going to have to take a hit,†Capitals defenseman Karl Alzner told CSNWashington.com “It’s just how big of a hit we need to take.â€

“I think both sides know what their next proposal is, it’s just who wants to give it first,†Alzner said. “The owners know what their bottom percentage is and I’m sure Don [Fehr] knows what’s going to be a good one for us economically.

“But who’s going to be the first one to bite the bullet? No one wants to lose the negotiation. We understand we’re definitely not going to win it.â€

http://www.csnwashington.com/hockey...ont-win-labor-war?blockID=784509&feedID=10283

The more players that can get on board with this line of thinking, the better. They also need to consider that having 30 profitable teams is good for the players as well.

 

[Deebo]

“We know we’re going to have to take a hit,†Capitals defenseman Karl Alzner told CSNWashington.com “It’s just how big of a hit we need to take.â€

“I think both sides know what their next proposal is, it’s just who wants to give it first,†Alzner said. “The owners know what their bottom percentage is and I’m sure Don [Fehr] knows what’s going to be a good one for us economically.

“But who’s going to be the first one to bite the bullet? No one wants to lose the negotiation. We understand we’re definitely not going to win it.â€

http://www.csnwashington.com/hockey...ont-win-labor-war?blockID=784509&feedID=10283

I think that's the smartest I've heard a player sound on the situation.

 

[NickyMaz]

Good news. Hopefully something meaningful comes out of this. They need to establish what the most important things are to both sides and try to each compromise to show the other side that they are willing to work together.

Yes, the fact that they are talking means we are on the right track and very much ahead of where we were in 2004.