OT: Fitness and Nutrition IX

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DAChampion

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Of course, they did not, and they do not know the exact calories that they took in. But they have a far better idea of what they did eat than if they hadn't. For example, I know that there is error in my scale, there is error in the package labels, there is error in the nutritiondata website. But error doesn't mean ''no information.''

What is a more useful measure than weight, in your opinion? Volume? Length? lol

For non-elite athletes, I do not believe in counting calories. Aside from being irrational pseudoscience, it's a form of neuroticism. If you're weighing all of your food, you have an eating disorder.

Kitchen scales were invented for bakers, and in that context they make sense.
 
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DAChampion

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Really not understanding the comparison between Italy and Holland. Comparing a country to a province,don't get it. The Netherlands however are one of the largest agricultural exporters and very wealthy. Very expensive there,but otherwise very pleasant to pass some time there,aside from the weather.

Can't compare tomatoes and other foods to NA. Europe has more stringent guidelines yielding more flavorful goods.

I've been all over Europe. Their food is better due to better ingredients and better preparation.

Attached is an image of an eggplant/beef thing that I ate in Istanbul. The plate cost me $5, was made in a joke in the wall, and is one of the best meals that I have ever had.
IMG_20190805_170906.jpg
 

NotProkofievian

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For non-elite athletes, I do not believe in counting calories. Aside from being irrational pseudoscience, it's a form of neuroticism. If you're weighing all of your food, you have an eating disorder.

Kitchen scales were invented for bakers, and in that context they make sense.

Neurotic, here, is an argumentative term, not a descriptive one. ''I am meticulous, you are neurotic.'' It's not an eating disorder to find out roughly how many calories I use up in a day in order to set a moderate deficit for some weeks.

You will also have to make up your mind whether it is ''pseudoscience'' or something that is only for elite athletes, to help with their elite athleticism. It either works, or it does not.
 

NotProkofievian

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Really not understanding the comparison between Italy and Holland. Comparing a country to a province,don't get it. The Netherlands however are one of the largest agricultural exporters and very wealthy. Very expensive there,but otherwise very pleasant to pass some time there,aside from the weather.

Can't compare tomatoes and other foods to NA. Europe has more stringent guidelines yielding more flavorful goods.

I am currently in Zuid Holland. Holland is not a province, Noord and Zuid Holland are. And do you know how many dutch people, even from outside those provinces, describe where they're from? Holland. I have a colleague from Brabant who says he's from ''Holland.'' If you want me to find a random dutch person to confirm this, I can walk outside my door.

The quality of produce in different places is wildly different. One of the things that Holland is known for producing (in terms of quantity) is actually tomatoes. Yet, when I tell a joke about how difficult it is to make a good tomato sauce out of dutch tomatoes, my colleagues laugh, and agree.
 

DAChampion

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Neurotic, here, is an argumentative term, not a descriptive one. ''I am meticulous, you are neurotic.'' It's not an eating disorder to find out roughly how many calories I use up in a day in order to set a moderate deficit for some weeks.

You will also have to make up your mind whether it is ''pseudoscience'' or something that is only for elite athletes, to help with their elite athleticism. It either works, or it does not.

A symptom of a personality/behavioural disorder that is often used for diagnosis is when a person's affliction prevents him from living a normal life. So for example it's ok to be nervous in public places, but if you end up staying indoors all of the time, you have a problem.

If you're committed to measuring calories to 0.05% precision, then you cannot live a normal life. If you show up to a potluck or to a dinner party at your aunt's house with a protein bar, then you are not living a normal life.

I'm now travelling for work. I'm in Salt Lake City, and I'm being invited to a work dinner tonight. Should I ask the cook for a calorie count of the meal? No. Should I ask to be taken to Chipotle because they publish (low-precision) calorie counts? No. Should I skip the dinner? No. Would it mean that I have a personality disorder if i did any one if those things? Yes. Does this apply to most of the meals I'm eating this week? Yes.

This doesn't apply to an elite athlete as optimizing performance doesn't prevent them from living their life, it is their life. Many of them also hire professional staff to help with their meals.
 

NotProkofievian

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A symptom of a personality/behavioural disorder that is often used for diagnosis is when a person's affliction prevents him from living a normal life. So for example it's ok to be nervous in public places, but if you end up staying indoors all of the time, you have a problem.

If you're committed to measuring calories to 0.05% precision, then you cannot live a normal life. If you show up to a potluck or to a dinner party at your aunt's house with a protein bar, then you are not living a normal life.

It would be the compulsion that would be the neurosis, not the actual act. I am not compelled to count calories for 10 weeks, and then suddenly the compulsion leaves. It's a deliberate, temporary act to achieve a defined goal. Much like how while an OCD person might wash their hands compulsively, I am not neurotic because I wash my hands before I eat.

Of course, the compulsion could be any act, counting calories included.

I'm now travelling for work. I'm in Salt Lake City, and I'm being invited to a work dinner tonight. Should I ask the cook for a calorie count of the meal? No. Should I ask to be taken to Chipotle because they publish (low-precision) calorie counts? No. Should I skip the dinner? No. Does this apply to most of the meals I'm eating this week? Yes.

This doesn't apply to an elite athlete as optimizing performance doesn't prevent them from living their life, it is their life. Many of them also hire professional staff to help with their meals.

Let's say you were dieting: you're allowed to cheat on a diet. But if you have been counting calories for the rest of the meals in your day, you have probably only have to avoid gluttony to stay compliant, and you probably know how much you have to work with. On the other hand, the positive side of counting calories is that you learn, roughly, how many calories are in what. If you've never counted calories you know none of this.

If you're not dieting, go for it. Don't let your dreams be dreams. One meal won't change anything either way.
 

angusyoung

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Aug 17, 2014
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I am currently in Zuid Holland. Holland is not a province, Noord and Zuid Holland are. And do you know how many dutch people, even from outside those provinces, describe where they're from? Holland. I have a colleague from Brabant who says he's from ''Holland.'' If you want me to find a random dutch person to confirm this, I can walk outside my door.

The quality of produce in different places is wildly different. One of the things that Holland is known for producing (in terms of quantity) is actually tomatoes. Yet, when I tell a joke about how difficult it is to make a good tomato sauce out of dutch tomatoes, my colleagues laugh, and agree.

Nice! I'm in North Holland. Didn't think many could differentiate that,good on you! I'm 100% Dutch FYI,so need to explain to me about things pertaining to the Netherlands. Ya,we simplify many things for so many.

More than tomatoes,but anyways.......

Gonna see a show in Zuid Holland next month. Such a huge country! almost takes me 3 hours to go from North to south!
 
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NotProkofievian

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Nice! I'm in North Holland. Didn't think many could differentiate that,good on you! I'm 100% Dutch FYI,so need to explain to me about things pertaining to the Netherlands. Ya,we simplify many things for so many.

More than tomatoes,but anyways.......

I don't mean to attack you, or your tomatoes. They're fine. :sarcasm:
 

Mrb1p

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Dec 10, 2011
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Nice! I'm in North Holland. Didn't think many could differentiate that,good on you! I'm 100% Dutch FYI,so need to explain to me about things pertaining to the Netherlands. Ya,we simplify many things for so many.

More than tomatoes,but anyways.......

Gonna see a show in Zuid Holland next month. Such a huge country! almost takes me 3 hours to go from North to south!
Such a huge country
3 hours from border to border

Choose one :laugh: i once drove 24 hours straight and didnt even make it out of Quebec.
 

NotProkofievian

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Nov 29, 2011
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All cool! Guess you're familiar with that by now. What brings you to Zuid? sprouts?

Oh, I live here. I am a (mod) buitenlander here to study before I rot op naar mijn eigen land.

In the meantime, the tulips are quite nice.
 
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Paddyjack

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Dec 10, 2007
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A symptom of a personality/behavioural disorder that is often used for diagnosis is when a person's affliction prevents him from living a normal life. So for example it's ok to be nervous in public places, but if you end up staying indoors all of the time, you have a problem.

If you're committed to measuring calories to 0.05% precision, then you cannot live a normal life. If you show up to a potluck or to a dinner party at your aunt's house with a protein bar, then you are not living a normal life.

I'm now travelling for work. I'm in Salt Lake City, and I'm being invited to a work dinner tonight. Should I ask the cook for a calorie count of the meal? No. Should I ask to be taken to Chipotle because they publish (low-precision) calorie counts? No. Should I skip the dinner? No. Would it mean that I have a personality disorder if i did any one if those things? Yes. Does this apply to most of the meals I'm eating this week? Yes.

This doesn't apply to an elite athlete as optimizing performance doesn't prevent them from living their life, it is their life. Many of them also hire professional staff to help with their meals.

I wouldn't go as far as calling this personality disorder, I rather think it's a decision based on a combination of internet information and perfectionism.

But in a way I agree. I know most of you guys don't like him too much, but when I look at Jeff Cavaliere who is ripped all year long without counting calories, you have to believe in his talk of 40-40-20%. Basically he is saying that as long as you have the correct proportion of veggies/proteins/carbs (40-40-20) you should be fine eating how much you want you want. Given that you are training seriously of course.
 

Treb

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May 31, 2011
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Im probably the bing-est of eater round here and I can say theres nothing hard about it. Just do it for christ sakes, human evolved for this kind of thing.

I've been trying to get motivated for years, but it never worked for more than 3 months at a time. A day always comes where I break the no alcohol/crap food habit and then it all falls apart.
 

Mrb1p

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Dec 10, 2011
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Citizen of the world
I've been trying to get motivated for years, but it never worked for more than 3 months at a time. A day always comes where I break the no alcohol/crap food habit and then it all falls apart.

Use the bend but dont break approach, it works. At least for me.
 

DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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It would be the compulsion that would be the neurosis, not the actual act. I am not compelled to count calories for 10 weeks, and then suddenly the compulsion leaves. It's a deliberate, temporary act to achieve a defined goal. Much like how while an OCD person might wash their hands compulsively, I am not neurotic because I wash my hands before I eat.

Of course, the compulsion could be any act, counting calories included.



Let's say you were dieting: you're allowed to cheat on a diet. But if you have been counting calories for the rest of the meals in your day, you have probably only have to avoid gluttony to stay compliant, and you probably know how much you have to work with. On the other hand, the positive side of counting calories is that you learn, roughly, how many calories are in what. If you've never counted calories you know none of this.

If you're not dieting, go for it. Don't let your dreams be dreams. One meal won't change anything either way.

For the people who think that they're counting calories to 0.05% precision (lol), a single incorrect meal every seven years will be sufficient to double their assumed measurement error.

In general, a single meal a week with a factor of 2 error , and that's a very conservative estimate, will give you a 5% error. So really nobody should be bothering to get a higher precision than 100 calories a day. That can be understood from a first year undergraduate course. I wouldn't be nearly as amused if people were rounding to the nearest 100 calories. It is also the case that for most normal people, the sample will be larger than one meal a week.

Moreover, the calories themselves don't matter that much. The human body is not a bomb calorimeter. A single calorie of sugar has a different effect than a calorie of protein or fat, and behaves differently based on what time of day you eat it at. That is well documented, but the people who count calories often ignore that, because they're more interested in the illusion of control.

You don't actually learn how many calories are approximately in things. The same meal in two different restaurants can have a calorie count that varies by a factor of two or three.

I wouldn't go as far as calling this personality disorder, I rather think it's a decision based on a combination of internet information and perfectionism.

But in a way I agree. I know most of you guys don't like him too much, but when I look at Jeff Cavaliere who is ripped all year long without counting calories, you have to believe in his talk of 40-40-20%. Basically he is saying that as long as you have the correct proportion of veggies/proteins/carbs (40-40-20) you should be fine eating how much you want you want. Given that you are training seriously of course.

I suspect that for healthy people, eating the right macros should lead to them to feel satisfied once they've eaten enough to maintain a lean body weight.

Comfort foods are largely engineered to bypass the human body's satiety response, causing people to eat a lot more. For example, coca cola is absorbed faster than a lot of the body's hormonal response to food.
 
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DAChampion

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May 28, 2011
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I've been trying to get motivated for years, but it never worked for more than 3 months at a time. A day always comes where I break the no alcohol/crap food habit and then it all falls apart.

I'd it really a single bad day, or is it a confluence of other factors?
 
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