#firebenning: The Movement Has Gone Mainstream

[Peter10]

This is very much Willie D-level lunacy. The "but he works hard" narrative seems to be a free pass for screwing up.

If I work hard at my job and screws up 10 times an hour all day everyday, am I a hard worker? Oh yeah. Does anyone give a **** when I'm fired? Not a chance.

"It is not the try league, it is the get it done league."

 

[F A N]

The "Detroit model" essential boils down to drafting well and with few exceptions giving your prospects lots of development time in the minors, something Detroit has never stopped doing. No he's not likely to do a tear down rebuild like New York is doing, but he's shown the last two years he does know how to accumulate picks when in the position to do so.

Another Holland trademark is loyalty to long term players, whether it's your franchise star or a grinder. In the latter case guys like Maltby, Draper, Holmstorm, Abdelkader, Glendening, etc etc. If you counted them the last 20 years I'd bet Detroit has a much higher numbers of players who started and ended their careers with the same team than anyway one else.

But the point I'm making is those things have impact when he's been in the same place for such a long time and always with a competitive team. Vancouver is past the point of a tear down rebuild, as there's nothing left to tear down just the core young players to lock up and the junk Benning has surrounded them with on multi-year deals. It's a fresh start so whether you like the idea or not it should still be a few years before we'd be regularly making the playoffs and a Maltby/Glendening type player appears for him to cling onto.

Worst case scenario I'd see with Holland is something like when Brian Burke was here where he puts in a good 5 years work to bring the team back to respectability but you need someone better to really bring the team over the top.

My point is that I don't see how Holland is going to be philosophically that much different from Benning where those who hate Benning with like Holland. Don't forget that he also signed Nielsen and hey Vanek as UFAs.

But hey, Holland can't fall in love with anybody for the first oh 5 years here right?

 

[MadaCanuckle]

My point is that I don't see how Holland is going to be philosophically that much different from Benning where those who hate Benning with like Holland. Don't forget that he also signed Nielsen and hey Vanek as UFAs.

But hey, Holland can't fall in love with anybody for the first oh 5 years here right?

But hey, Holland acquired more top 90 picks in the last deadline than Benning has in the last 45 months (I can't say 4 years because the last one we acquired was 30 June 2015). But hey, we are rebuilding, or so they say... By the way, they signed Vanek for 1 year, we signed Beagle for the next 4 years. But hey, who's counting, right?

 

[Fire Benning]

Motte might be hard working, yet he is getting some of the worst results in the league. This is a guy you can easily replace with a waiver pick up, saying he is more valueable than a 3rd round pick (or any draft pick what so ever) is a bit funny.

Trying hard should be the absolute bare minimum for any NHL player, the results are what matters, he sucks.

 

[Fatass]

But hey, Holland acquired more top 90 picks in the last deadline than Benning has in the last 45 months (I can't say 4 years because the last one we acquired was 30 June 2015). But hey, we are rebuilding, or so they say... By the way, they signed Vanek for 1 year, we signed Beagle for the next 4 years. But hey, who's counting, right?

Considering we already had Sutter, why did we even need Beagle? Clearly Gaudette should be playing third line center now. What do we do with Sutter? Do we play him ahead of Gaudette, and regard the development of another young player?

 

[hookshott]

Trying hard should be the absolute bare minimum for any NHL player, the results are what matters, he sucks.

This is a guy who had 32 goals and 56 points in 38 games during his last year at the University of Michigan so he has some offensive ability. As with many players, production depends on the guys you are playing with and they have chosen to play him down the lineup where he is doing a credible job. I'll take his "try" over a 33 year old Jay Beagle any day!

 

[MadaCanuckle]

Considering we already had Sutter, why did we even need Beagle? Clearly Gaudette should be playing third line center now. What do we do with Sutter? Do we play him ahead of Gaudette, and regard the development of another young player?

That must be answered by the guy who went to the GDT and said we can't cheer for the tank. It is obvious to everyone except the Benning drones that we don't know how to develop players, and veterans play even if they fail hard on their job. So...

 

[Fatass]

That must be answered by the guy who went to the GDT and said we can't cheer for the tank. It is obvious to everyone except the Benning drones that we don't know how to develop players, and veterans play even if they fail hard on their job. So...

Is the “playing vets at the expense of developing our next generation of players” a systematic problem in the entire organization? Look at what’s going on in Utica!

 

[digger18]

My point is that I don't see how Holland is going to be philosophically that much different from Benning where those who hate Benning with like Holland. Don't forget that he also signed Nielsen and hey Vanek as UFAs.

But hey, Holland can't fall in love with anybody for the first oh 5 years here right?

Why would Holland come to the Canucks? He just went through a situation where he had a great owner completely trusting him with the reigns, and giving him a blank cheque to do his thing for many years. Even if that situation is no longer the case in Detroit, why would he want go to Van, and take orders from a meddling owner - on ALL of his decisions? If Ken Holland does leave the Red Wings, Vancouver would most likely be his second last choice in the league of teams to take over....Behind Melnyks shit show in Ottawa!

 

[RandV]

Why would Holland come to the Canucks? He just went through a situation where he had a great owner completely trusting him with the reigns, and giving him a blank cheque to do his thing for many years. Even if that situation is no longer the case in Detroit, why would he want go to Van, and take orders from a meddling owner - on ALL of his decisions? If Ken Holland does leave the Red Wings, Vancouver would most likely be his second last choice in the league of teams to take over....Behind Melnyks **** show in Ottawa!

It's simple really.

1. Everything is lining up in Detroit for a peaceful transition where Holland steps down and Yzerman takes over
2. There are only so many GM spots open at any given time, and Vancouver is as nice a city as any
3. With Hollands pedigree and experience he has the clout to tell Aquilini to shove it if he tries to meddle. Holland flashes his Cup rings and Aquilini will listen

#3 is true in pretty much in profession. A boss is a boss, but if you're a rock star in your profession you get to set the stage and tell the boss how it's going to be.

 

[digger18]

It's simple really.

1. Everything is lining up in Detroit for a peaceful transition where Holland steps down and Yzerman takes over
2. There are only so many GM spots open at any given time, and Vancouver is as nice a city as any
3. With Hollands pedigree and experience he has the clout to tell Aquilini to shove it if he tries to meddle. Holland flashes his Cup rings and Aquilini will listen

#3 is true in pretty much in profession. A boss is a boss, but if you're a rock star in your profession you get to set the stage and tell the boss how it's going to be.

Ok so you’ve answered why you think Holland would come here. Now I want to know why Aquaman would want anything less than another puppet running the Canucks for him? Why would he pay Ken Holland a ton of money to come run his team for him, and then have to fire him, after he tells him to stick his ideas, and demands where the sun doesn’t shine?

It simply isn’t a good fit. Unfortunately, until the Canucks get new ownership, we will never see a credible management team running things. They will always be low paid puppets pretending that their owner isn’t making all the decisions!

 

[y2kcanucks]

I would work hard if I made the Canucks. Does that mean they should sign me? Can someone get this message out to Benning? I want my $3M long-term contract.

 

[The Optimist]

Ok so you’ve answered why you think Holland would come here. Now I want to know why Aquaman would want anything less than another puppet running the Canucks for him? Why would he pay Ken Holland a ton of money to come run his team for him, and then have to fire him, after he tells him to stick his ideas, and demands where the sun doesn’t shine?

Because Aquilini wants to win. And Aquilini is aware that the most successful Canucks team in franchise history was following 'The Detroit Model'. The very same model that Holland constructed.

 

[Fatass]

Ok so you’ve answered why you think Holland would come here. Now I want to know why Aquaman would want anything less than another puppet running the Canucks for him? Why would he pay Ken Holland a ton of money to come run his team for him, and then have to fire him, after he tells him to stick his ideas, and demands where the sun doesn’t shine?

It simply isn’t a good fit. Unfortunately, until the Canucks get new ownership, we will never see a credible management team running things. They will always be low paid puppets pretending that their owner isn’t making all the decisions!

Totally agree. The experienced GMs know our owner is a puppet master, and will never work for the guy.

 

[sandwichbird2023]

Totally agree. The experienced GMs know our owner is a puppet master, and will never work for the guy.

Not so sure about that. Like mentioned above, there is only 31 such jobs available in the entire world, and there are only a few vacancies each year. If Holland is being phased out in Detroit, at his age, how long can he realistically wait for the ideal situation to pop up? In 3-5 years the league could be full of Dubas or Chayka types, and the OBC might not be given jobs as easily as before. If Holland wants one last payday, Van-city is as good as any. Rich owner, no expectations, beautiful city, everybody knows it will take years to clean up this mess so he has a few "freebie years". If things works out he is a genius for turning it around, if things don't work out, blame that your hands are tied by meddling owners, collect your last big cheque and calls it a career. Honestly doesn't sound so bad.

 

[RandV]

Ok so you’ve answered why you think Holland would come here. Now I want to know why Aquaman would want anything less than another puppet running the Canucks for him? Why would he pay Ken Holland a ton of money to come run his team for him, and then have to fire him, after he tells him to stick his ideas, and demands where the sun doesn’t shine?

It simply isn’t a good fit. Unfortunately, until the Canucks get new ownership, we will never see a credible management team running things. They will always be low paid puppets pretending that their owner isn’t making all the decisions!

Well at this point we can only speculate on Aquilini's mindset. To the typical HFBoard user, Holland has largely fallen out of favour. I'd think to the more casual fan which is more where I put Aquilini Holland's legacy of success would still hold a lot of sway. There's also two things we know about Aquilini: yes he involves himself with the team, but he's also a life long Canucks fan.

So how much he involves himself depends a lot on how much faith he has in the guy running the team. If he never liked the guy - Nonis, if he loses faith - Gillis post 2011, or he has a yes man in place - Benning, then he meddles. The first few years with Gillis though he stepped back and let him do his job, and in my opinion that's what you would get with Holland.

That's one of the reasons I like Holland for the job. He's probably not the best GM candidate available (and who is I don't know), but considering our ownership and the question of 'who will he actually hire' and 'how much will he involve himself' I think Holland is a good fit for us.

 

[geebaan]

Trying hard should be the absolute bare minimum for any NHL player, the results are what matters, he sucks.

No no, I’d rather have him than a prospect like Madden. He’s a solid NHL player.

 

[vanarchy]

I would work hard if I made the Canucks. Does that mean they should sign me? Can someone get this message out to Benning? I want my $3M long-term contract.

How are you in the shootout?

 

[rypper]

Gillis seemed to be able to limit Aquilini's meddling at least until the end of his time here. Perhaps someone with a bit more experience and clout then Benning would be able to do the same? Someone who would be able to say "Look you hired me because of my experience and track record, now back the f*** off and let me do my job!"

 

[y2kcanucks]

The Canucks have won 7 games in regulation against playoff teams this season. That doesn’t seem good.

 

[Fatass]

The Canucks have won 7 games in regulation against playoff teams this season. That doesn’t seem good.

This statistic wouldn’t bother me if we were actually accumulating top three picks, and clearly rebuilding. We’re not though, so (yes) this is VERY BAD.

 

[The Drop]

My point is that I don't see how Holland is going to be philosophically that much different from Benning where those who hate Benning with like Holland. Don't forget that he also signed Nielsen and hey Vanek as UFAs.

But hey, Holland can't fall in love with anybody for the first oh 5 years here right?

This line of thinking is either disingenuous or terrifying

“We don’t know if Holland will be an improvement on Benning so instead let’s stick with the guy we KNOW can’t do the job.”

Never seen that defense before

 

[vanuck]

No matter how similar one may think Holland is to Benning philosophically... at least he would be a better executor than Benning at pulling off trades and hoarding of draft picks. One poster posted a list comparing the two and it's not even close.

 

[Fire Benning]

Even if Holland or anyone else came in and wanted to accumulate picks the roster that Benning would leave behind for them has basically no pieces of value to acquire said picks, I also think the time to really stockpile picks has passed anyway.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Even if Holland or anyone else came in and wanted to accumulate picks the roster that Benning would leave behind for them has basically no pieces of value to acquire said picks, I also think the time to really stockpile picks has passed anyway.

Disagree. There's always time for that. And whoever takes over after Benning is going to inherit maybe 4 or 5 genuinely good hockey players moving forward and then a whole ton of overpaid mediocre to bad players after that. There's still going to be a ton of holes, no matter how you slice it. Draft picks will probably be all that can reasonably be recouped for them. I hope. Just as long as that idiotic "age gap" theory is put to bed.