#firebenning: The Movement Has Gone Mainstream

[The Extrapolater]

People clamouring for Holland clearly haven’t looked at what Detroit has been doing the past 10 years. Since the Cup loss to Pitts the Wings have been putridly bad. Their contract situations have been HORRIBLE! They’ve continued to spend while missing the playoffs, and if you don’t like bringing in or back veterans who aren’t just overpaid, but completely washed. Well Holland might not be the guy you all think he is.

The Red Wings were a playoff team up until 2016, which is when Datsyuk retired, and were a 100 point team in 2015, which was Babcock's final season with the team. Meaning the Red Wings have only been "putridly bad" for three years. They've been acquiring picks (rebuilding) since the summer of Datsyuk's retirement.

That 2014-2015 team was pretty good, and seemed one or two moves away from competing for the Cup again. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Kronwall, and Howard were still playing like all-stars. Tomas Tatar, Gustav Nyquist, and Petr Mrazek seemed as though they were stepping up into leadership roles. They had just built a new arena. Dylan Larkin fell to them in the draft. It seemed as though their retool from when Lidstrom had retired had been a success.

Really, the only troubling event happening was Babcock demanding to be the highest paid coach in the NHL. Detroit didn't match Toronto's offer, and moved onto Blashill, who was highly regarded coming out of the NCAA coaching system.

As for contracts, the only one that cannot be justified is Abdelkader's. And also Glendenning's, but his cap-hit is far from egregious.

Zetterburg, Datsyuk, Franzen, and Kronwall were pre-2013 CBA. The less said about those, the happier the NHL league office is. Never say never, but the NHL is unlikely to seriously challenge any teams on placing pre-2013 contract players onto LTIR to finish out those contracts.

Nielson and Helm were market-rate. Nielson's term is concerning, until seeing the details: it was front-loaded, giving the team some flexibility if they decided to move on from him.

More importantly the salary structure works so that there's always a bit of breathing room created each summer. Datsyuk's salary cleared in 2017. Howard and Kronwall's clears this season. Franzen's clears after next season. Zetterburg's clears in couple more seasons.

Holland isn't perfect. The Abdelkader and Glendenning contracts did put the squeeze on them when it came to resigning Athanasiou, but the Red Wings still have him, and still have time to work out a long-term deal with him.

Holland is much, much better than you give him credit for. I don't know if he's the best candidate out there, if he even is one, but he is well-suited for rebuilding a team

 

[Wo Yorfat]

Posted this in another thread, but I'll leave it here too (found it in the Red Wings subsection):

Ken Holland draft pick trade record since 2016 draft:

OUT:
1st 2016 (Datsyuk-trade)
5th 2018 (Sheahan-Wilson trade)
5th 2019 (Jensen-Bowey trade)

IN:
1st 2018 (Tatar)
1st 2016 (Datsyuk trade)
2nd 2018 (Smith)
2nd 2019 (Tatar)
2nd 2019 (Nyquist)
2nd 2020 (Jensen)
2nd 2016 (Datsyuk-trade)
3rd 2020 (Nyquist, conditional for 2nd)
3rd 2017 (Jurco)
3rd 2017 (Vanek)
3rd 2017 (Smith)
3rd 2018 (Sheahan-Wilson)
3rd 2019 (Mrazek)
3rd 2021 (Tatar)
4th 2018 (Mrazek)
5th 2019 (Wilson)
6th 2018 (Ott)

I prefer the Benning method of creating the worst team in the league over 4 yrs and never adding picks.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

But I was told a pick for Vanek was impossible?

I’d take Tyler Motte over a 3rd...

 

[Black Noise]

I’d take Tyler Motte over a 3rd...

Would you take Tyler Motte over Tyler Madden?

 

[Fatass]

I’d take Tyler Motte over a 3rd...

I like Motte too. He works hard. However, during a rebuild we need to collect as many top six forwards and top four D men as possible. That third round pick, although the odds are very poor, could give us one of those much needed pieces. Guys like Motte can be had in ?UFA time, although Benning is terrible there.

 

[clunk]

I’d take Tyler Motte over a 3rd...

You can find 100 Tyler Mottes in free agency. He is replacement level.

This is just one reason why people tend to not take you seriously.

 

[Fatass]

Would you take Tyler Motte over Tyler Madden?

Exceeded point. I totally agree, would much rather have two Tyler Madden level prospects over Motte any day. The more picks we have, especially in the first three rounds, the more likely our chances of getting lucky, and finding a future core piece. Or we could even trade that guy if there are already really good guys in his position. Benning limits what he can do bytrading picks.

 

[Peter10]

Would you take Tyler Motte over Tyler Madden?

Its the same narrative with the usual Benning defenders all the time, just needs to fit whatever is currently on the agenda. "oh, who cares about a 5th round pick.....whoohoo Gaudette what a genius pick by dear leader"

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Would you take Tyler Motte over Tyler Madden?

Let’s see if Madden can even crack the roster first.

 

[Peter10]

Let’s see if Madden can even crack the roster first.

Getting a 3rd for Motte would be a steal.

 

[geebaan]

Would you take Tyler Motte over Tyler Madden?

Uh oh, you got him now. Watch him blame it on you now.

 

[Black Noise]

Let’s see if Madden can even crack the roster first.

So you’d take Tyler Motte over Tyler Madden?

 

[geebaan]

So you’d take Tyler Motte over Tyler Madden?

Like like like like

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

You can find 100 Tyler Mottes in free agency. He is replacement level.

This is just one reason why people tend to not take you seriously.

Good solid NHL player..You think I need validation from you?..lmao

 

[Fatass]

Let’s see if Madden can even crack the roster first.

The thing about Madden is he has a much higher (potential) ceiling than Motte. We know what Motte is, and he’s definitely not going to be a core piece. Madden may never be good enough, like you say, but there is a chance he becomes a core piece. When rebuilding, I’d much rather have that chance.

 

[geebaan]

Good solid NHL player..You think I need validation from you?..lmao

How is he a good, solid NHL player? What specifically about him is not easily replaceable?

 

[WonderTwinsUnite]

How is he a good, solid NHL player? What specifically about him is not easily replaceable?

Don't you know he's a fourth-liner on a bottom five NHL team? Guy is clearly a star.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

How is he a good, solid NHL player? What specifically about him is not easily replaceable?

Did I say he was irreplaceable?..If we had had drafted him with a 3rd,I’d be pleased with that..Do you know the odds off a 3rd round pick making the NHL,let alone playing 153 games..

Motte made the team out of camp,..and deservedly so..

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

The thing about Madden is he has a much higher (potential) ceiling than Motte. We know what Motte is, and he’s definitely not going to be a core piece. Madden may never be good enough, like you say, but there is a chance he becomes a core piece. When rebuilding, I’d much rather have that chance.

Fair comment..I’m looking forward to seeing what Madden can do ..although I’m not unhappy with getting Motte..

 

[Fatass]

Did I say he was irreplaceable?..If we had had drafted him with a 3rd,I’d be pleased with that..Do you know the odds off a 3rd round pick making the NHL,let alone playing 153 games..

Motte made the team out of camp,..and deservedly so..

Yes Motte is a serviceable NHL player. We are rebuilding. We don’t need serviceable guys; we need elite core pieces. Third round picks can provide a core piece.
Should we trade all our second and third round picks for serviceable NHL players?

 

[Fatass]

Fair comment..I’m looking forward to seeing what Madden can do ..although I’m not unhappy with getting Motte..

I like Motte too. But we are in a rebuilding phase, so IMO picks are more important than guys of Motte’s level.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

Yes Motte is a serviceable NHL player. We are rebuilding. We don’t need serviceable guys; we need elite core pieces. Third round picks can provide a core piece.
Should we trade all our second and third round picks for serviceable NHL players?

Motte just turned 24..and no,I’m not advocating trading picks for players overall..but again,in isolation..I think Mottes a useful player..PK,works hard..and chips in offensively

 

[Fatass]

Motte just turned 24..and no,I’m not advocating trading picks for players overall..but again,in isolation..I think Mottes a useful player..PK,works hard..and chips in offensively

I think we agree that Motte is a hard working serviceable NHL player. I just don’t want to see any picks used to aquire serviceable NHL players (of any age) during a rebuilding phase.

 

[Peter10]

Motte might be hard working, yet he is getting some of the worst results in the league. This is a guy you can easily replace with a waiver pick up, saying he is more valueable than a 3rd round pick (or any draft pick what so ever) is a bit funny.

 

[valkynax]

Motte might be hard working, yet he is getting some of the worst results in the league. This is a guy you can easily replace with a waiver pick up, saying he is more valueable than a 3rd round pick (or any draft pick what so ever) is a bit funny.

This is very much Willie D-level lunacy. The "but he works hard" narrative seems to be a free pass for screwing up.

If I work hard at my job and screws up 10 times an hour all day everyday, am I a hard worker? Oh yeah. Does anyone give a shit when I'm fired? Not a chance.