Fire Hakstol

[hatcher]

The purpose of hockey is not to put up the best possession statistics. Sometimes it seems like that's lost -- like players and teams are judged on a game of "keep away" as opposed to wins, losses, and the scoreboard.

These possession stats also struggle to factor in deployment differences, such as quality of competition faced, zone starts, and the quality of chances a player creates and concedes due to good plays and mistakes.

Fans frequently compare players' possession stats in a vacuum, as if everything about their usage is equal, when it is not. Doing so ignores how much deployment impacts statistics, and also overemphasizes the importance of possession metrics.

In many cases, fans are making huge deals out of what amounts to merely a couple of shots for/against over a 100 shot span, and ignoring shot quality and deployment differences in the process.

To further illustrate what I believe is the tendency of many fans to place too much emphasis on possession stats (while also ignoring too much context):

The 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 6th teams in the NHL in CF% missed the playoffs.

The Capitals, who won the Cup, were 9th in the playoffs in CF% at 48.83%.

Now, I'm not saying possession metrics are useless, but I do believe they are too often cited as the definitive authority on player and team evaluation. They aren't.

They play a great team d game. D go around the boards most of the time and play the game properly. Flyers are f***ing terrible after watching these playoffs.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Possessing the puck makes it easier to score and much harder for the other team to score, so it's a really valuable metric and skill.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Possession is not valueless, but its value is overstated and its application often oversimplified, for the reasons I posted.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Is anyone else getting more upset with Hakstol/Hextall given Las Vegas' success? LV has shown that a good coach and system can make mediocre players into a contender. Yet here we sit with what appears to be a decade long rebuild on the horizon with these two chuckleheads. My patience with those two is now gone.

nope, not upset.
you just cant use the LV example to get rid of the coach and GM. I am no fan of Hakstol, but using this line of thinking how many other coaches/GMs would be fired.

 

[deadhead]

Laughton was a good possession player all year long, unlike Flip. Simple Hak thinks you can roll out a second pairing with two terrible possession dmen on it, and a shutdown center with terrible possession numbers, and still compete. Turns out you can't.

And a bad defender in his own zone, it's not an accident that his +/- was so bad, he was a liability on defense.
And the eyeball test confirms it, I saw him standing around looking lost more than once in the D-zone, whereas I saw Filppula make numerous smart plays to thwart opposing scoring chances.
Problem with Filppula and Lehtera is they know what to do, their legs just won't get them there in time.
But they outplayed most of the younger players in the playoffs, which shows experience does matter when the chips are down.

Which is why we need to be patient, it's not enough to gather up a bunch of young players, you need to let them play for a few years before they're playoff hardened.

 

[Striiker]

No, they absolutely did not outplay the younger players.

At this point I think you have Filppula and Laughton mixed up because you praise the trash and try to bash the one who actually played well.

 

[Beef Invictus]

No, they absolutely did not outplay the younger players.

At this point I think you have Filppula and Laughton mixed up because you praise the trash and try to bash the one who actually played well.

I mean, he thinks that playing inferior players more than superior players is good coaching.

 

[Magua]

You are good at fantasies.

I also have a fantasy where Flip is force fed jellied beef like that Gluttony scene in Se7en.

 

[kelmitchell]

I mean, he thinks that playing inferior players more than superior players is good coaching.

Maybe he is the coach (dun dun dun)

 

[Scotty Pucks]

Trotz for Coach.

 

[Rebels57]

Bump

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

Bump

 

[NYCFlyer]

And a bad defender in his own zone, it's not an accident that his +/- was so bad, he was a liability on defense.
And the eyeball test confirms it, I saw him standing around looking lost more than once in the D-zone, whereas I saw Filppula make numerous smart plays to thwart opposing scoring chances.
Problem with Filppula and Lehtera is they know what to do, their legs just won't get them there in time.
But they outplayed most of the younger players in the playoffs, which shows experience does matter when the chips are down.

Which is why we need to be patient, it's not enough to gather up a bunch of young players, you need to let them play for a few years before they're playoff hardened.

You guys are still arguing over popping zits when you have gangrene. We have a bottom five goaltending situation, very weak bottom four D, very weak bottom 6 and still came in third in a division where the first two teams were the last two cup champs. No way Hak gets fired or should he despite some questionable decisions. As many said early last year, Hak is here until we don't make the playoffs or our young players regress. Lappy on the other hand needs to be reassigned.

 

[Ruck Over]

Can we all chill with the coming in 3rd in division? We were the last Metro team to secure a playoff spot, the Debbies and Lumbus obviously tanked the last game or they could've finished higher in the standings than the Flyers. We can hang our hat on being better than the afterthoughts of the Atlantic, as Florida was too little too late. But we are not the 3rd best team in the Metro unequivocally. By reasoning, the 3rd best team would be the 3rd team to clinch a playoff spot, we were the 5th.

If Trotz would take a meeting, I'd bring him on board.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

If Trotz had the same record with the Flyers as he did with the Caps during his first three years in DC (and the same talent), this board would have been clamoring for his firing either before, or certainly during, his 4th (this past) season.

Now he's great and many Flyers fans would want him as their coach, when it's very likely they'd have been trying to run him out of town before this year's playoffs.

And that's the relationship between most fans and coaches in a nutshell.

 

[JojoTheWhale]

The purpose of hockey is not to put up the best possession statistics. Sometimes it seems like that's lost -- like players and teams are judged on a game of "keep away" as opposed to wins, losses, and the scoreboard.

These possession stats also struggle to factor in deployment differences, such as quality of competition faced, zone starts, and the quality of chances a player creates and concedes due to good plays and mistakes.

Fans frequently compare players' possession stats in a vacuum, as if everything about their usage is equal, when it is not. Doing so ignores how much deployment impacts statistics, and also overemphasizes the importance of possession metrics.

In many cases, fans are making huge deals out of what amounts to merely a couple of shots for/against over a 100 shot span, and ignoring shot quality and deployment differences in the process.

To further illustrate what I believe is the tendency of many fans to place too much emphasis on possession stats (while also ignoring too much context):

The 1st, 3rd, 4th, and 6th teams in the NHL in CF% missed the playoffs.

The Capitals, who won the Cup, were 9th in the playoffs in CF% at 48.83%.

Now, I'm not saying possession metrics are useless, but I do believe they are too often cited as the definitive authority on player and team evaluation. They aren't.

You're using possession metrics and CF% interchangeably, which is just ignoring a different type of context. I'm all for railing against misapplication of different metrics, but we need to be intellectually honest when we do so.

The purpose of analytics, like scouting, coaching, and every other aspect of a hockey organization is to win Games. Some things have better correlations to that than others, but all things have exceptions. The catch is that we often use relatively small sample sizes (read: Playoff series) to determine worth. The best team doesn't always win, especially when margins are as small as they are. The Caps, who won the Cup, have probably had 6 or 7 better teams during Ovechkin's career. That's ok to say.

 

[hatcher]

What a move. I like the power bomb.

 

[Captain Dave Poulin]

What a move. I like the power bomb.

I need you to fly to Philadelphia once camp starts, find a turnbuckle, and launch your giant ass at our idiot head coach.

 

[hatcher]

I need you to fly to Philadelphia once camp starts, find a turnbuckle, and launch your giant ass at our idiot head coach.

That wouldn't be fair dude. I'd just slap him once lol.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

That wouldn't be fair dude. I'd just slap him once lol.

Tread lightly my friend.

 

[hatcher]

Tread lightly my friend.

Hak better start lighting his f***ing team up instead of playing pattsie.

 

[Embiid]

Tread lightly my friend.

Lmao....

Surprised Hakstol didn't just try and stare him down...

 

[Flyerfan4life]

god, Torts cant get here fast enuf...

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Tread lightly my friend.

lol@ Andy Bezeau having over 400 PIMS in 53 games.
seems like a guy Holmgren would of signed to a multi year contract

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

lol@ Andy Bezeau having over 400 PIMS in 53 games.
seems like a guy Holmgren would of signed to a multi year contract

I’d buy that guy a beer if I could.