Fire/Don't Fire/Discuss Torts II

[Socks]

There's some things that I have issues with in regards to this coach (I have mentioned them in previous posts of mine). I think he gets too much praise when the team wins and not enough when the defense disappears, the special teams break down or with the utilization and playing time of certain players. But you bring up the best point. With whom do you replace him with?

This team can still do things few expected before the year started. 67% of posters on this board who voted before the year started had them outside of the playoffs (including me...including @Cowumbus). Nobody can deny that Torts and the coaches have put in a system that gives the team a chance to win games and have the players buying into that strategy. He deserves the credit for that. He hasn't lost the locker room. That says a lot to me.

The team is going through a transition period right now. Continuity is important and Torts provides that.

Torts will be fired one day. The timing for that is certainly not now or at seasons end no matter if they make the playoffs or not.

Agreed. Torts is in serious contention for the Jack Adams. He took a ragtag team and got them winning. A coach may get hired to get fired but you do not fire a (potential) finalist for coach of the year immediately following that season.

Unless you’re Vegas and then all bets are off and you’ll fire a very good coach at any time.

 

[Madifer]

There's some things that I have issues with in regards to this coach (I have mentioned them in previous posts of mine). I think he gets too much praise when the team wins and not enough when the defense disappears, the special teams break down or with the utilization and playing time of certain players. But you bring up the best point. With whom do you replace him with?

This team can still do things few expected before the year started. 67% of posters on this board who voted before the year started had them outside of the playoffs (including me...including @Cowumbus). Nobody can deny that Torts and the coaches have put in a system that gives the team a chance to win games and have the players buying into that strategy. He deserves the credit for that. He hasn't lost the locker room. That says a lot to me.

The team is going through a transition period right now. Continuity is important and Torts provides that.

Torts will be fired one day. The timing for that is certainly not now or at seasons end no matter if they make the playoffs or not.

Hmm I dont understand the point of this post.

I do agree that one day he may get fired though ;o "may" since its also possible that his contract doesnt get extended

 

[Monstershockey]

I disagree with the praise aspect. When things weren't going good at the beginning of the season, most people were constantly bashing Torts, saying the game passed him by. Some were even counting the days until he was canned. Constantly bashing him for not playing Milano, not giving Bemstrom enough time, for playing Jenner, Wennberg, Foligno, and Cam too much. People were complaining Bjorkstrand shot too much. Some are still complaining about Milano. Torts has done a solid job sticking to his structure and keeping with players that were scuffling to find their games. One person even said when they were doing good with the AHL guys that Torts had it easy and didn't have to make any decisions, which is ridiculous. This team as a whole deserves credit from the top down. I don't care if Torts gets the Jack Adams trophy, I don't think he does either. I just hope they keep playing well, a couple more guys find their game, and that they finish strong. Torts deserves credit, but so do the guys that were having a rough time and played through it, and so do the guys that were called up and held down the fort until the injured got back. The goalies also get credit for upping their games. This stretch has been a total team effort and has been amazing to watch.

 

[Cowumbus]

Why is it so hard for people to say they were wrong?

“Wrong” ???

How many times do I have to say that he’s not the coach we are going to win a cup with? There is no right/wrong.

I predicted they would be just outside of the playoffs, and they should be given the players on the roster and we are a bubble team at best right now, which is fine and about where we were expected to be. But Torts is only capable of being a bubble team, even with guys like Panarin/Bob on the roster. Torts is a coach that is meant to be around for 2-5 years, and teach defense to a young core and change the culture of the team. Time to move on (soon).

Again this tweet pretty much sums up how I feel:

 

[KCbus]

How many Stanley Cups has Cooper won?

 

[CBJWerenski8]

“Wrong” ???

How many times do I have to say that he’s not the coach we are going to win a cup with? There is no right/wrong.

I predicted they would be just outside of the playoffs, and they should be given the players on the roster and we are a bubble team at best right now, which is fine and about where we were expected to be. But Torts is only capable of being a bubble team, even with guys like Panarin/Bob on the roster. Torts is a coach that is meant to be around for 2-5 years, and teach defense to a young core and change the culture of the team. Time to move on (soon).

Again this tweet pretty much sums up how I feel:

Firstly, I apologize for calling you wrong for your opinion. That was out of line.

Secondly, Okay that’s fine but why? Wanting him fired for last years team being better than it finished? This team is a bubble team, and we’re on the bubble, so you want him fired for performing up to expectations? Or for not exceeding expectations? Maybe he’s only coached bubble teams and he’s doing the best possible job with the rosters he has? Last year is like the only example of a Torts team who underperformed in the regular season, and then followed it up with a good playoff run.

Wanting Torts fired because he’s not the right guy for the job is pretty odd to me, because I can’t think of one coach out there on the market who would be better for it right now. And I know that’s not my job to find out, but if Torts gets us near the line there’s almost no chance he gets fired.

Torts does some dumb shit but he’s an amazing coach. The best in franchise history bar none, and he should be treated with a bit more respect from the fans imo.

 

[Monstershockey]

“Wrong” ???

How many times do I have to say that he’s not the coach we are going to win a cup with? There is no right/wrong.

I predicted they would be just outside of the playoffs, and they should be given the players on the roster and we are a bubble team at best right now, which is fine and about where we were expected to be. But Torts is only capable of being a bubble team, even with guys like Panarin/Bob on the roster. Torts is a coach that is meant to be around for 2-5 years, and teach defense to a young core and change the culture of the team. Time to move on (soon).

Again this tweet pretty much sums up how I feel:

You have no way of knowing if he is the coach who will get the cup or not. The teams with Panarin and Bob on them weren't great. If they were they would have won the whole thing. It wasn't coaching that lost in the playoffs. Could he have made better decisions? Yeah, probably. But, you can also say the players should have been better. What coach, I mean re-tread could do better? There are so many things that have to go right to win a championship to blame a coach or certain players is off. To say Torts won't help this team win a cup is simple. You have excellent odds. It has nothing to do with his coaching, only 1 out of 31 will get the cup. If Columbus doesn't win the cup this year, its because they just don't have enough, like every other team that won't win it all. That statement about being around 2-5 years to change culture and teach defense and then move on is absurd. Any new coach is going to change it all up, move players they don't like, and teach their own system. Torts has done a fine job, to blow it all up because its time to move on is stupid. Him and Jarmo are on the same page and have built a quality team. Next season you try to add a couple pieces while keeping a solid core and they should be in good shape. They have earned the right to try and get it done. I haven't been here from the beginning, but listening to what people say about how it used to be, and reading and looking at past records, these last few years with Jarmo and Torts have been the best years for this franchise.

 

[Cowumbus]

You have no way of knowing if he is the coach who will get the cup or not. The teams with Panarin and Bob on them weren't great. If they were they would have won the whole thing. It wasn't coaching that lost in the playoffs. Could he have made better decisions? Yeah, probably. But, you can also say the players should have been better. What coach, I mean re-tread could do better? There are so many things that have to go right to win a championship to blame a coach or certain players is off. To say Torts won't help this team win a cup is simple. You have excellent odds. It has nothing to do with his coaching, only 1 out of 31 will get the cup. If Columbus doesn't win the cup this year, its because they just don't have enough, like every other team that won't win it all. That statement about being around 2-5 years to change culture and teach defense and then move on is absurd. Any new coach is going to change it all up, move players they don't like, and teach their own system. Torts has done a fine job, to blow it all up because its time to move on is stupid. Him and Jarmo are on the same page and have built a quality team. Next season you try to add a couple pieces while keeping a solid core and they should be in good shape. They have earned the right to try and get it done. I haven't been here from the beginning, but listening to what people say about how it used to be, and reading and looking at past records, these last few years with Jarmo and Torts have been the best years for this franchise.

@CBJWennberg10 Yes he is the best coach in CBJ history, but is that really saying much? Jarmo always says we should look to improve our hockey club now AND for the future. Maybe making that change now could do both? Making a coaching change might just do it. I still think Bednar would have been the best choice a few years ago but that ship has sailed. However, I think there are multiple coaches that could have success here (Gallant, Keefe, Leach) and many guys out there that are better than Torts (Babcock and Laviolette) that are not coaching ATM.

@Monstershockey
Systems are not equal to understanding how to play away from the puck, to fight off hits (like Bjorkstrand in the last game) and to accept criticism/accountability.

What I am getting from your post is that it’s the PLAYERS fault for having no postseason success. But the current play is NOT? Is Torts the reason for being in a playoff battle or the players? Choose wisely.

At the end of the day the only thing Torts coaches to do is get the puck out of the zone as soon as possible and dump and chase. This can win you 1 round but will not carry you far in the playoffs.

I just don’t get why people love him and think he’s a great coach IN TODAYS NHL. He has 1 cup from 16 years ago and has only made it out of the second round one time since then. That team he won the cup with had 4 possible HHOF Richards, Andreychuck (already in) Lecavlier and St Louis.

 

[Madifer]

@CBJWennberg10

I just don’t get why people love him and think he’s a great coach IN TODAYS NHL. He has 1 cup from 16 years ago and has only made it out of the second round one time since then. That team he won the cup with had 4 possible HHOF Richards, Andreychuck (already in) Lecavlier and St Louis.

who is a great coach in today's NHL then? Trotz or Sullivan? They had a roaster loaded with superstars in their prime. Or maybe Cooper who has had an amazing team but guess what?

Whos this mysterious person then?

1 cup in the last 16 years isnt bad at all if you look at the math. (Theres only 1 cup a year for 30-31 teams etc).

Imagine you are Jarmo and have the green light to do as you like. What would you do?

I seriously cant believe that someone isnt happy with Tort's results this season and thinks he isnt a great match for the Jackets :\

 

[Monstershockey]

@CBJWennberg10 Yes he is the best coach in CBJ history, but is that really saying much? Jarmo always says we should look to improve our hockey club now AND for the future. Maybe making that change now could do both? Making a coaching change might just do it. I still think Bednar would have been the best choice a few years ago but that ship has sailed. However, I think there are multiple coaches that could have success here (Gallant, Keefe, Leach) and many guys out there that are better than Torts (Babcock and Laviolette) that are not coaching ATM.

@Monstershockey
Systems are not equal to understanding how to play away from the puck, to fight off hits (like Bjorkstrand in the last game) and to accept criticism/accountability.

What I am getting from your post is that it’s the PLAYERS fault for having no postseason success. But the current play is NOT? Is Torts the reason for being in a playoff battle or the players? Choose wisely.

At the end of the day the only thing Torts coaches to do is get the puck out of the zone as soon as possible and dump and chase. This can win you 1 round but will not carry you far in the playoffs.

I just don’t get why people love him and think he’s a great coach IN TODAYS NHL. He has 1 cup from 16 years ago and has only made it out of the second round one time since then. That team he won the cup with had 4 possible HHOF Richards, Andreychuck (already in) Lecavlier and St Louis.

I have been saying all along it is a team effort. By team, it means everyone involved, top down. They are all part of the team. If you are going to blame coaching, you can also shift some to the guys on the ice. That goes for all coaches and players. I agree with Bednar, but I still have no problem with Tortorella. They should have made the switch to Bednar before hiring Torts, but that is just hindsight. As much as I like coach Eaves for the Monsters, I would have been happier if they would have hired a guy that they were going to groom for the job when Torts' time is up. I was hoping they would reach out to Ryan Craig from Vegas and give him the job in Cleveland. He wants to coach, players respect him, and he knows the game the way it is played now. It might have been another Bednar situation.
As far as Torts having 4 hall of famers and thats why he got that cup, the same could be said for Laviolette's Hurricanes. He also hasn't won a cup since the season after Torts. Is Quennevilles 3 cups tainted because of the future hall of famers on his teams? Sullivan's? Scotty Bowman's Canadiens had lines of future hall of famers.
Torts knows much more than dump and chase, its just that is what is working with the players he has. And yes, it may win you one round and not carry you in the playoffs. You need players also.
Since Torts started coaching, there has been 3 coaches that have won more than 1 cup, so that argument that he only has 1 cup 16 years ago is pretty lame. There has been a lot more coaches that haven't won anything since then.

 

[DarkandStormy]

I have been saying all along it is a team effort. By team, it means everyone involved, top down. They are all part of the team. If you are going to blame coaching, you can also shift some to the guys on the ice. That goes for all coaches and players. I agree with Bednar, but I still have no problem with Tortorella. They should have made the switch to Bednar before hiring Torts, but that is just hindsight. As much as I like coach Eaves for the Monsters, I would have been happier if they would have hired a guy that they were going to groom for the job when Torts' time is up. I was hoping they would reach out to Ryan Craig from Vegas and give him the job in Cleveland. He wants to coach, players respect him, and he knows the game the way it is played now. It might have been another Bednar situation.
As far as Torts having 4 hall of famers and thats why he got that cup, the same could be said for Laviolette's Hurricanes. He also hasn't won a cup since the season after Torts. Is Quennevilles 3 cups tainted because of the future hall of famers on his teams? Sullivan's? Scotty Bowman's Canadiens had lines of future hall of famers.
Torts knows much more than dump and chase, its just that is what is working with the players he has. And yes, it may win you one round and not carry you in the playoffs. You need players also.
Since Torts started coaching, there has been 3 coaches that have won more than 1 cup, so that argument that he only has 1 cup 16 years ago is pretty lame. There has been a lot more coaches that haven't won anything since then.

Not sure too many people are arguing Laviolette is an elite coach - look how quickly he flames out at each stop.

Only 18 coaches have won multiple Cups in 100+ years. 35 have won one.

I still think Torts is the same as when he was hired - a good coach to get this team out of its constant funk, country club culture, etc. and probably good enough to be perennial wild card contenders, but not good enough to get the team to become legitimate Cup contenders for a stretch.

 

[Nordique]

“Wrong” ???

How many times do I have to say that he’s not the coach we are going to win a cup with? There is no right/wrong.

I predicted they would be just outside of the playoffs, and they should be given the players on the roster and we are a bubble team at best right now, which is fine and about where we were expected to be. But Torts is only capable of being a bubble team, even with guys like Panarin/Bob on the roster. Torts is a coach that is meant to be around for 2-5 years, and teach defense to a young core and change the culture of the team. Time to move on (soon).

Again this tweet pretty much sums up how I feel:

Don't paint a picture of last year's team being underachievers based on a loaded roster.

Torts led that team to a 6-4 post season record vs the President's cup winner, and the Stanley cup runner up.

Torts will always get more out of non all stars than most coaches, and that's exactly what the job in small market Columbus calls for.

We haven't missed the post season since his arrival (3 full seasons), and looks like he might just (against all odds) keep that streak going even with a depleted roster, and the 2nd most salary $ games lost to injury in the league.

For any of us that remember the 15 seasons of shit we had before him, there really is no legit argument to remove him, only a hope that he chooses to stay.

 

[Madifer]

I still think Torts is the same as when he was hired - a good coach to get this team out of its constant funk, country club culture, etc. and probably good enough to be perennial wild card contenders, but not good enough to get the team to become legitimate Cup contenders for a stretch.

Thats not necessarily the case. This year the team doesnt have enough firepower to be a contender and Torts cant create Breads and Duchenes out of thin air.

Last year this team was a legitimate contender and not a bubble playoffs team. The fact that it lost to the Bruins was regrettable yet that Bruins team was amazing so losing to it didnt feel as bad as losing to let's say Caps a year before where a huge lead was blown away. I did feel that the Jackets were running out of steam during the 2nd half of the series. Whether its my imagination or perception is debatable, but if it isnt then it is possible that Torts could be partially responsible for this which I still doubt.

But otherwise, if all goes well then next year this team could be different. But not right now.

 

[Monstershockey]

Not sure too many people are arguing Laviolette is an elite coach - look how quickly he flames out at each stop.

Only 18 coaches have won multiple Cups in 100+ years. 35 have won one.

I still think Torts is the same as when he was hired - a good coach to get this team out of its constant funk, country club culture, etc. and probably good enough to be perennial wild card contenders, but not good enough to get the team to become legitimate Cup contenders for a stretch.

The poster I was replying to brought up Laviolette as one of the available coaches that they felt was better than Torts. I think Tortorella is a little better of a coach now because of the way his past played out. Going to Vancouver for a year and going down in flames, I think, made him rethink how he goes about his job. I also think living in Columbus and the life he currently has is also helping him, he seems to genuinely like living there. Columbus has been a cup contender for a few years now. To me, as long as you make the playoffs, you are a cup contender. Anything can happen. Actually, I like this teams chances. I had no expectations, and thought they would miss the playoffs, and they still might, but it is hard not to get excited. This team has faced some serious adversity and came out of it a better team. We really aren't hearing about any headcases, or troublemakers in the locker room, these guys seem to really like each other and are willing to play hard for each other. The stats may not show it, but these are the intangibles you can't measure with stats. If Anderson comes back and is able to play better and closer to the way he is capable, then that is even better. This team really seems to be jelling, and some of that has to be because of the culture that has been set.

 

[Madifer]

Ps. Torts.. if you ever visit this board to read our speculations, no matter how unlikely I mean, then maybe you can set an example of what being a modern coach is like and tell us what it is all of us seem to be missing in our arguments

 

[Cowumbus]

Is Torts to blame for the PP, it is still terrible and has been over the course of our run last last month or so.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Is Torts to blame for the PP, it is still terrible and has been over the course of our run last last month or so.

HF Logic: Wow our teams PP is so awful, Torts is at fault. Look at all the stats that have his teams have done on it historically!

Torts: hires MacLean to run the PP instead of Larsen.

PP booms at the start

HF: Wow look at MacLean, that genius! He saved our PP from Torts/Larsen!

PP cools down and reverts back to below average.

HF: Wow what is Torts doing? The PP is bad and its his fault.

 

[MoeBartoli]

I’m not giving Larsen a free PP when it comes to PP woes and I thought it would be better with the Stache on board (Well, it is better but the benchmark was minus 10). While I still think the yield should be higher, at some point the question is whether this is just an extension of our overall offensive shortcomings.

We are more opportunistic rather than stylistic on offense. We have a few very good shooters, but very few creators and few quality passers of the puck. A PP with Boone, Nick and Wennberg - yeah, I know he’s a goal scoring machine - isn’t usually a formula for great success. BTW, that’s not a knock on Boone or Nick; their role is more 3rd line grinder/defensive play.

 

[Cowumbus]

HF Logic: Wow our teams PP is so awful, Torts is at fault. Look at all the stats that have his teams have done on it historically!

Torts: hires MacLean to run the PP instead of Larsen.

PP booms at the start

HF: Wow look at MacLean, that genius! He saved our PP from Torts/Larsen!

PP cools down and reverts back to below average.

HF: Wow what is Torts doing? The PP is bad and its his fault.

The head coach is always responsible, you know that.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

The head coach is always responsible, you know that.

Only for blame, it appears

 

[Cowumbus]

Only for blame, it appears

If the pp was good maybe he wouldn’t get blamed?
Last 3 years PP ranks:
25th
28th
23rd

 

[CBJWerenski8]

If the pp was good maybe he wouldn’t get blamed?
Last 3 years PP ranks:
25th
28th
23rd

Okay okay. How about PK? How about team points? How many PPG does he have personally?

 

[Monstershockey]

If the pp was good maybe he wouldn’t get blamed?
Last 3 years PP ranks:
25th
28th
23rd

If the PP was good, people would just find something else to blame him for. Again, coaches can only do so much. The players on the ice have something to do with it also. The PP in January is 20%, which is better than its been, but could still be better.

 

[Cowumbus]

If the PP was good, people would just find something else to blame him for. Again, coaches can only do so much. The players on the ice have something to do with it also. The PP in January is 20%, which is better than its been, but could still be better.

The coaches make the lines. We had one of the best PP guys in the NHL (Panarin), two if you count ZW and it still was poor.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Top 5 longest coaching tenures w/ their current teams:
1- Jon Cooper - TB (65 games into 2012-13)
2- Paul Maurice - WPG (start of 2013-14)
3- Jeff Blashill - DET (start of 2015-16)
4- John Tortorella - CBJ (7 games into 2015-16)
5- Mike Sullivan - PIT (18 games into 2015-16)

Maurice may not survive the season. Blashill is almost certainly gone after this season. If Tampa doesn't make the playoffs and/or gets blown out early, then Cooper probably bites the dust. If these three end up fired, then guess who will be the longest tenured NHL coach with the same team?? And the second longest will be his protege.

Dinosaur. I think not.