Fire/Don't Fire/Discuss Torts II

[Monstershockey]

The coaches make the lines. We had one of the best PP guys in the NHL (Panarin), two if you count ZW and it still was poor.

Yeah, the coaches make the lines. We have no idea who determines the lines. I would assume Torts has final say, but he also might have total trust in whoever is in charge of the PP and go with what they want. So they pick the guys they want out there. When does the responsibility end with the coaches and start with the players? They have a job to do on the PP, if they aren't getting it done, shouldn't they shoulder part of the blame? If you are given a task at work and don't get it done, does your supervisor get all the blame, or is some of it on you for not getting the job done? The power play is a problem, and it seems to be systemic as the Monsters are bad also. Watching both teams as much as I do, there are a lot of similarities. The Monsters PP is extremely frustrating to watch. Who came up with the type of PP they play? Torts? Possibly. Or did the assistant in charge come up with it. Bottom line is accountability should go accross the board and it is on everyone involved with the PP to get better.

 

[Viqsi]

The coaches make the lines. We had one of the best PP guys in the NHL (Panarin), two if you count ZW and it still was poor.

This is a joke, right? Prior to this year, Panarin has always been a fixture on truly terrible power plays. Chicago's PP was atrocious while he was there.

 

[Jive Pawnbroker]

The head coach is always responsible, you know that.

Using that logic, should the Isles fire Trotz? The Isles' PP is next to last in the league.

 

[Nordique]

The coaches make the lines. We had one of the best PP guys in the NHL (Panarin), two if you count ZW and it still was poor.

Not really. He's great but not a PP leader.

Panarin 39th in the league this season in PPG and 34th in PPP. More of an open ice guy imo...8th in G and 5th in Points overall.

Our PP problems directly relate to our FO problems. 26th in the league in FO, 23rd in PP%.

We need a 1C. We have good 2/3C's, but not a true 1C.

 

[DarkandStormy]

Our PP problems directly relate to our FO problems. 26th in the league in FO, 23rd in PP%.

We need a 1C. We have good 2/3C's, but not a true 1C.

Citing overall FO statistics is irrelevant when trying to tie it to the problems on the PP. Here are the faceoff numbers on the PP this season:

Stenlund: 1/0 (100%)
Nyquist 3/1 (75%)
Atkinson: 2/1 (66.7%)
Jenner: 52/44 (54.2%)
Foligno: 25/22 (53.19%)
PLD: 14/13 (51.85%)
Wennberg: 26/35 (42.62%)
Nash: 1/5 (16.7%)
Texier: 0/1 (0%)
Anderson: 0/1 (0%)

The team is 50.2% on faceoffs on the PP.

We actually have a good 1b center. But saying Wennberg/Jenner are good 2Cs is questionable. They are both 3Cs.

 

[blahblah]

The PP is always kind of an interesting topic to me. You want a good power play going into the post season, but I find it to be a bit overrated in the regular season.

If you take us the Edmonton (the top PP). We have roughly the same attempts, which is translating to another 18 goals. That sounds awesome, but that's also like 1 goal every 3 games. Not sure what that translates to in points, but it's probably not many more. However, where we are in standings another 5 points would be huge. However, that is the top in the league at almost 30%. That is fairly useless comparison as it's unlikely we'd be that good.

Now, if we get to league average, around 20%, that's another 3 or 4 goals over the whole season thus far. Over 51 games that's one every 17 or so games. That may not have added a single point to this team.

When you compare our PP and PK we are about a wash. About the same number of goals for as against. We're above league average on the PK. Basically our games are decided 5 on 5. Strong 5 on 5 play tends to make more of a difference as you spend far more of the game even strength.

 

[Nordique]

Citing overall FO statistics is irrelevant when trying to tie it to the problems on the PP. Here are the faceoff numbers on the PP this season:

Stenlund: 1/0 (100%)
Nyquist 3/1 (75%)
Atkinson: 2/1 (66.7%)
Jenner: 52/44 (54.2%)
Foligno: 25/22 (53.19%)
PLD: 14/13 (51.85%)
Wennberg: 26/35 (42.62%)
Nash: 1/5 (16.7%)
Texier: 0/1 (0%)
Anderson: 0/1 (0%)

The team is 50.2% on faceoffs on the PP.

We actually have a good 1b center. But saying Wennberg/Jenner are good 2Cs is questionable. They are both 3Cs.

I wasn't talking about Wennberg.

Dubois and Jenner are good 2/3 C's and PLD could grow into a good 1C....I do like him alot.

Good stats there on the PP FO.

 

[Cowumbus]

This is a joke, right? Prior to this year, Panarin has always been a fixture on truly terrible power plays. Chicago's PP was atrocious while he was there.

Panarin PP points:
CHI 24 (22.62% on PP 17.34% League Avg)
CHI 17 (18.03% on PP 19.10% League Avg)
CBJ 21 (17.18% on PP 20.18% League Avg)
CBJ 18 (15.38% on PP 19.78% League Avg)

On pace for 28 PP points this year
NYR 21.6% on PP, 20.11% League Avg.
CBJ at 17.69% on PP, 20.11% League Avg.

CBJ in Torts year 1 17.34% on PP, League Average 18.66%
CBJ in Torts year 2 19.91% on PP, League Average 19.10

 

[Viqsi]

Panarin PP points:
CHI 24 (22.62% on PP 17.34% League Avg)
CHI 17 (18.03% on PP 19.10% League Avg)
CBJ 21 (17.18% on PP 20.18% League Avg)
CBJ 18 (15.38% on PP 19.78% League Avg)

On pace for 28 PP points this year
NYR 21.6% on PP, 20.11% League Avg.
CBJ at 17.69% on PP, 20.11% League Avg.

CBJ in Torts year 1 17.34% on PP, League Average 18.66%
CBJ in Torts year 2 19.91% on PP, League Average 19.10

Individually he's good. But you were commenting on the state of the power play as a whole when he's present (as a condemnation of Torts), and it's consistently low. Assuming a correlation that wasn't there.

 

[DarkandStormy]

The PP is always kind of an interesting topic to me. You want a good power play going into the post season, but I find it to be a bit overrated in the regular season.

Isn't the common narrative always the reverse? That the PP can win you some games/get you points for the playoffs in the regular season because they call more penalties, but that your 5v5 game needs to be really good to advance in the playoffs because the refs "swallow their whistles" in the postseason?

 

[DarkandStormy]

I wasn't talking about Wennberg.

Dubois and Jenner are good 2/3 C's and PLD could grow into a good 1C....I do like him alot.

I think PLD, being all of 21 years old, and proving he can be a 60 point center with or without Panarin (he's on pace for 61 this season) is pretty close to a "1b." He was 38th in points among players listed as "centers" on NHL.com -> and it should be noted that includes guys who don't play center - Gustav Nyquist, for example. His 27 goals ranked him 31st among that same group. I'd really have to filter by "faceoffs" or something to find the group that actually played center, but either way, he's right there among the top 31 centers in the league, imo.

(Just an example - Sam Reinhart was listed as a center last year, put up 65 points, but took all of 87 faceoffs the entire season.)

So I'm pretty comfortable calling PLD a 1b center for now with #1 upside. I think he can be a Jamie Benn-esque center, though hopefully without the downslide after turning 29 (yikes!).

Jenner is fine as a 3C. I still have concerns about his skating, but there...just aren't many other options in the organization right now. Maybe Foudy and/or Texier will fill those middle 6 roles in the future.

Wennberg is barely an NHL player. Torts was healthy scratching him before the injuries started. So even the coach saw him as the 13th or 14th best forward on the team when everyone or mostly everyone was healthy. He's waaaaayyyyy overpaid at $4.9m per year. He got hot for a five game stretch. That doesn't make him a middle 6 C. Maybe he'll prove me wrong and actually play well the final 30 games. But I'd still lean towards a buyout this summer over Wennberg being a middle 6 staple for the next three years.

 

[blahblah]

Isn't the common narrative always the reverse? That the PP can win you some games/get you points for the playoffs in the regular season because they call more penalties, but that your 5v5 game needs to be really good to advance in the playoffs because the refs "swallow their whistles" in the postseason?

Personally I find the opposite to be true. Good special teams can make a big impact in a 7 game series, not as much over the course of 82 games unless you are on the bubble.

Good 5 on 5 is always valuable and if you are a good team your 5 on 5 is almost always very good.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Isn't the common narrative always the reverse? That the PP can win you some games/get you points for the playoffs in the regular season because they call more penalties, but that your 5v5 game needs to be really good to advance in the playoffs because the refs "swallow their whistles" in the postseason?

You're not wrong, but I think the turnaround is that good special teams can make a difference in the playoffs because you absolutely must capitalize on your limited opportunities. Plus, as blah said, the compressed nature of a series vs. over an entire season.

 

[LetsGOJackets!!]

Not really. He's great but not a PP leader.

Panarin 39th in the league this season in PPG and 34th in PPP. More of an open ice guy imo...8th in G and 5th in Points overall.

Our PP problems directly relate to our FO problems. 26th in the league in FO, 23rd in PP%.

We need a 1C. We have good 2/3C's, but not a true 1C.

Not to oversimplify the problem but this is it, has always been it, and will continue to be it until the position is filled. I fear we will have to draft one, then wait a number of years for that player to develop when in fact we need one right now and with one right now we get instantly better. Win face offs, control puck possession(not just dump & chase) and make our wings far more productive.

Oliver is really hitting the back of the net lately.. picture his wrist shot with a #1 centre teeing him up on the PP.. Bemstrom..same same, Cam and Andy sniping down the wing where the 1C is forcing the play.. Put a Mark Schefele (hardworking#1) on our team and we would be frigging unbeatable.

 

[Monk]

Not to oversimplify the problem but this is it, has always been it, and will continue to be it until the position is filled. I fear we will have to draft one, then wait a number of years for that player to develop when in fact we need one right now and with one right now we get instantly better. Win face offs, control puck possession(not just dump & chase) and make our wings far more productive.

Oliver is really hitting the back of the net lately.. picture his wrist shot with a #1 centre teeing him up on the PP.. Bemstrom..same same, Cam and Andy sniping down the wing where the 1C is forcing the play.. Put a Mark Schefele (hardworking#1) on our team and we would be frigging unbeatable.

I feel like we're already a few years into that process with PLD. He could stagnate, but I could also see him filling that role for CBJ as early as this year/next.

 

[Cowumbus]

Individually he's good. But you were commenting on the state of the power play as a whole when he's present (as a condemnation of Torts), and it's consistently low. Assuming a correlation that wasn't there.

“We had one of the best PP guys in the NHL (Panarin), two if you count ZW and it still was poor.”

Where did I say anything other than Panarin being a great PP player? I said Torts has never figured it out, even with these Elite players. And that is seen through the stats.

I also posted to show you that the power play he was on was good in Chicago, better than ours, when you claimed they were bad. But you were the one who said they were so poor. NYR PP is great right now as well.

Chicago was better than, or very near league average on PP with him, NYR is better than league average. Cbus powerplay is CONSISTENTYLY below league average, by multiple percentage points.

That’s my point.

 

[Viqsi]

Chicago was better than, or very near league average on PP with him

They weren't, actually. That's my point. The state of the PP was a constant complaint among Blackhawks fans during that period - "we have Toews and Kane and Panarin and Keith, why does our PP suck so bad?"

And, incidentally, the presence of those players would be a good indicator as to why their PP was nonetheless better than ours has been.

 

[Cowumbus]

They weren't, actually. That's my point. The state of the PP was a constant complaint among Blackhawks fans during that period - "we have Toews and Kane and Panarin and Keith, why does our PP suck so bad?"

And, incidentally, the presence of those players would be a good indicator as to why their PP was nonetheless better than ours has been.

Atkinson Dubois Werenski Bjorkstrand (&Panarin) are not slouches

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Torts' deal ends after next season. Has he ever expressed a desire to move on from coaching after his current deal ends? If he's inclined to continue, I'd expect an extension to happen before season's end.

 

[KCbus]

I don't think we should fire Torts. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Madifer]

I don't think we should fire Torts. That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it.

Its hard to make a case to fire Trots lol.. :Р

 

[Byrral]

Torts' deal ends after next season. Has he ever expressed a desire to move on from coaching after his current deal ends? If he's inclined to continue, I'd expect an extension to happen before season's end.

I don't see a reason to discuss an extension at this time. A lot can happen between now and a year and a half. Torts has also dug himself into this community and has been a surrogate for Columbus in general. I doubt he is looking for "a bigger payday or a better gig". He has a great gig here with tremendous respect from the fan base and community and money isn't going to be an issue. He's done an excellent job his year, no doubt and if Jarmo wants him here he will be here.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

FIRE TORTS!!

 

[koteka]

Rename the team after Torts.

 

[KCbus]

So, do we fire him now?