Fire Babcock Thread - Part II

[VladTheImpaler]

I think it is about time that we "mutually agree" to separate with Babs. We have too many skilled players on the big club and in GR to be trying to play the grinding style that Babcock has been forcing on this team over the last few years. His chronic favoritism he shows towards certain players has not only hurt our chances to win right now, but it is also stunting the growth of guys that we will be counting on to lead this team in the future.

Bring Blashill up and start the new era before wasting what's left of Pav and Z's point-producing years.

 

[VladTheImpaler]

I'm sort of leaning towards blaming Holland more than Babcock. A few years ago, when Lidstrom, Rafalski, Stuart, Filppula, Hudler, Hossa, etc. were still around we weren't complaining nearly as much about line combinations, game rosters, etc. I think Babcock is perfectly capable of doing these things well but he needs the personnel to do it. Thing is, he doesn't have that now. Hoarding 'past due' vets, blockading prospects, inactivity in the trade market, that falls on Holland.

Criticize Babs' lineup decisions all you want, he's tried many combinations already in the season. He's doing SOMETHING. What has Holland done? Nothing. He is so hesitant to make any kind of move. He seems petrified of change. The only moves he does are moves to PREVENT change, like resigning Cleary. Holland needs to stop kicking the can down the road and cut the fat off this roster.

I am also part of this school of thought, but most people generally praised the off-season acquisitions that Holland made this summer. However, re-signing that pylon Cleary and not making the roster space necessary for Nyquist to start the season in Detroit fall directly on Holland's shoulders.

Not to mention the signing of Sammy last summer.

 

[lilidk]

this team will improve if Weiss got traded. What does he brings for 5mills?

 

[Mort Divine]

this team will improve if Weiss got traded. What does he brings for 5mills?

The team improves by not setting Weiss up to fail by giving him **** linemates.

 

[Frk It]

First of all let me say, regardless of the crap he pulls, I think that Babcock is still a great hockey coach, and to quote Stephen A. Smith, "A great leader among men", which I think is a very important trait in a coach.

That being said, I have fundamental 2 issues with Babcock as a coach.
1. His system
2. His roster decisions (which reflect the system he tries to employ)

Two things that hit home for me are: the success of Filppula after leaving Babcock, and the struggle of Weiss coming to play in our system.

We see Filppula, a talented but underwhelming player in Detroit, leave and go play in a system where he has less defensive responsibility as a center. He is doing very well and producing for Tampa. Then you have Weiss who was a productive player his whole career in Florida, but comes to Detroit where he has to focus way more on the defensive side of the puck, and he is having a terrible time transitioning.

The expectation Babcock plays on centers in his system, is very taxing, and it seems unless you have world-class talents like Datsyuk and Zetterberg, that playing center in Babcock's system makes it hard to carry out your defensive duties, and create offense at the same time.

To expand on this you look at all the comments Babcock makes, and it is clear as day he is shying away from the puck possession system that always got us success, and is gravitating towards a super-defensive, tight, "grind-em-down" system.
All of his roster decisions reflects this mentality. If you wanted to play puck
possession you would demote Abdelkader and Cleary, and bring up Tatar and Nyquist. We presently have Cleary on line 1, and Abdelkader on line 2. Despite providing little to no offensive production. We also get an injury to one of our top 6 forwards. Now you think this would be the perfect opportunity to get Nyquist up, and put him in a top 6 role that is vacant. What do we do? Promote Cleary from line 3 to line 1, and call up Glendening. DESPITE the fact we already clearly have enough centers (Pavel, Z, Weiss, Andersson). Now it's true that's Holland's fault too, but I think Babcock has plenty of pull in who gets called up or not. It's clear that Babcock loves Glendening-type players, and I'm sure Holland knows that.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not very high on either of them (Babcock, Holland). But I think based on drafting and free agent acquisitions, that Babcock wants a puck-possession system. So he has that going for him, because that's my preferred style of player. Then you see Babcock's roster moves, and how undrafted lunch-pale guys with no skill get on the team sooner than high profile skill players, and you just scratch your head. It's quite clear he has a different mentality than Holland. But what Holland did to this roster in terms of roster spots, and cap issues, is flat out inexcusable. The Sammy signing, Cleary signing, and Quincey for a 1st rounder are huge gaffes. Absolutely comical. So between the two of them, they're slipping badly.

 

[Roy S]

With Franzen out and Nyquist still in GR b/c of Holland, I don't see how you make a top 6 without one of Bert/Cleary/Abby. Unless you put one of the other crappy bottom 6 wingers with no offensive ability up there but they'll do awful too so then its just a grass is greener syndrome.

When Glendening comes up, he very well could shift Weiss to wing and replace one of Cleary or Abs in the top 6. Beyond that, I don't see what else he could do with the lines given what he has. Franzen and Helm are out and Nyquist is still in GR. That's 3 top 9 forwards.

 

[Frk It]

With Franzen out and Nyquist still in GR b/c of Holland, I don't see how you make a top 6 without one of Bert/Cleary/Abby. Unless you put one of the other crappy bottom 6 wingers with no offensive ability up there but they'll do awful too so then its just a grass is greener syndrome.

When Glendening comes up, he very well could shift Weiss to wing and replace one of Cleary or Abs in the top 6. Beyond that, I don't see what else he could do with the lines given what he has. Franzen and Helm are out and Nyquist is still in GR. That's 3 top 9 forwards.

Cleary and Abdelkader are crappy bottom 6 wingers with no offensive ability.

Big difference between Bertuzzi on line 1, and Cleary on line 1 though. Bertuzzi has considerably more skill. Actually 3rd on the team in goals.

 

[The Zermanator]

this team will improve if Weiss got traded. What does he brings for 5mills?

As unproductive as he's been thus far, he deserves more than 12 games to prove his worth.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

We also get an injury to one of our top 6 forwards. Now you think this would be the perfect opportunity to get Nyquist up, and put him in a top 6 role that is vacant. What do we do? Promote Cleary from line 3 to line 1, and call up Glendening.

Isn't this more that if we call up Nyquist, we have to keep him up (i.e. not waiver exempt)?

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

I get the feeling that Babcock is to the point that he doesn't know what the hell to do with this team and frankly it's tough to blame him, the roster is full of dead-weight.

Yes, but he's directly responsible for at least one of those dead logs (Cleary).

 

[Frk It]

Isn't this more that if we call up Nyquist, we have to keep him up (i.e. not waiver exempt)?

Yes, or we could call him up 1 game then send him back down.

But can't we waive Eaves now that he's healthy? Waiving Eaves + making 1 trade could theoretically get Gus on the team, is that right? Or if no trade, since we like to sign players that are so bad they are untradeable. Could we Waive Eaves + Waive Tootoo to get Gus on the team? Is that enough?

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

We need to clean up our mess with too many forwards and get to the point where Babs knows what he is working with first before even considering it. There's no indication that he's lost the room, and you have to go back to the truth that he's one of the top coaches (if not THE top) in the NHL right now. Anyone you replace him with is a step down.

You need a good reason to make such a move now, that reason doesn't exist.

 

[drw02]

Yes, or we could call him up 1 game then send him back down.

But can't we waive Eaves now that he's healthy? Waiving Eaves + making 1 trade could theoretically get Gus on the team, is that right? Or if no trade, since we like to sign players that are so bad they are untradeable. Could we Waive Eaves + Waive Tootoo to get Gus on the team? Is that enough?[/QUOTE]

Just waiving one of Eaves/Tootoo/Cleary would be enough. If they have enough to call up Glendening (575k) then waiving one of those three (+925k) and sending LG back down would make 1.5M in cap space. More than enough for Nyquist's 950k cap hit.

 

[cupforwings09]

The real problem is lies with the Defense. They turn the puck over so much and have such a hard time breaking out the offense is out of gas by the time they get it into the offensive zone.

 

[Squirrel in the Hole]

Yes, or we could call him up 1 game then send him back down.

But can't we waive Eaves now that he's healthy? Waiving Eaves + making 1 trade could theoretically get Gus on the team, is that right? Or if no trade, since we like to sign players that are so bad they are untradeable. Could we Waive Eaves + Waive Tootoo to get Gus on the team? Is that enough?

I wouldn't bring Nyquist up for one game unless we are that desperate to generate offence. He and Tatar need consistency and patience more than anything.

You could waive Eaves, but that's pretty cold. I think Babs is doing the right thing by seeing what he has in the next game. And, Tootoo is the one guy who's playing like he actually cares. Sammy is the guy who needs to go but that NTC is there.

The point is, these are Holland problems, not Babcock problems. Firing either at this point doesn't help.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Isn't this more that if we call up Nyquist, we have to keep him up (i.e. not waiver exempt)?

Sorry at this point we should be thinking about that, the offense and speed look flat out terrible, he is a player that is highly regarded in both those areas.

This whole but after two games stuff, fine but that isn't how you manage a sports team. Playing guys that earn playing time is also how you coach professional teams. If they want to make friends and have fun, retire and hang out with the Red Wings alumni. Neither man is hurting for money, I hope they didn't get into this business to make life long friends, they will have some anyhow, but this tip-toeing act is getting very old.

We like to say these jobs are hard and there is a reason they are doing them and we aren't. Well a part of that is having hard conversations, like sorry Dan we wanted it to work out but it didn't, we know you signed for less and we appreciate your 8 plus years, but this cannot go on. The door is open post-playing career if you can find it in yourself to forgive us down the road.

 

[Frk It]

. If they want to make friends and have fun, retire and hang out with the Red Wings alumni.

I can't stress this enough. If these guys can't make hard decisions anymore, then at some point they are just no longer doing their job.

 

[Frk It]

I'll never understand the Miller, Cleary, Eaves defenders.

We picked up each of these players off the scrap heap and made them relevant.

We owe them absolutely nothing. We should be able to waive them tomorrow and not bat an eyelash. We've already given them a ton.

 

[Frk It]

I wouldn't bring Nyquist up for one game unless we are that desperate to generate offence. He and Tatar need consistency and patience more than anything.

You could waive Eaves, but that's pretty cold. I think Babs is doing the right thing by seeing what he has in the next game. And, Tootoo is the one guy who's playing like he actually cares. Sammy is the guy who needs to go but that NTC is there.

The point is, these are Holland problems, not Babcock problems. Firing either at this point doesn't help.

How is waiving Eaves cold? He should be grateful for giving him a home and keeping him around.

This is a business people. Wayne Gretzky got traded, but we can't waive freaking Patrick Eaves? C'mon man.

 

[Flowah]

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2013/10/mike_babcock_on_slumping_red_w.html

"If I'm coming in from the outside and watched our team play, I'€™d say they didn'€™t have a coach. That hurts my feelings.'' -- Mike Babcock

Just thought it was kinda funny.

 

[Bench]

Babcock's got hurt feelings. He's got hurt feelings.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

How is waiving Eaves cold? He should be grateful for giving him a home and keeping him around.

This is a business people. Wayne Gretzky got traded, but we can't waive freaking Patrick Eaves? C'mon man.

Eaves has been bought out and waived by his two previous employers, not something that should exactly something that should completely stun him at this point.

 

[waltdetroit]

We need to clean up our mess with too many forwards and get to the point where Babs knows what he is working with first before even considering it. There's no indication that he's lost the room, and you have to go back to the truth that he's one of the top coaches (if not THE top) in the NHL right now. Anyone you replace him with is a step down.

You need a good reason to make such a move now, that reason doesn't exist.

I can imagine that the 5-6 players in roster limbo are greatly affected -as well as the whole team to some degree - by the roster mess. I agree Its time to clean it up

 

[probertrules24]

Lets try and really shake up the lines.

Tatar Datsyuk Franzen
Zetterberg Weiss Alfredsson
Abdelkader Andersson Tootoo
Cleary Miller Bertuzzi

Kronwall Kindl
Ericsson Smith
Quincey DD

Datsyuk gets two guys who like to shoot and some added speed from Tatar.
Weiss gets two guys who like to shoot and hopefully Z can help turn his game around.
The third line can crash and bang and hopefully score a few with their pressure.
The fourth is full of veterans who are top6 guys in the coaches eyes so they should dominate over 4th liners.

The hope is Datsyuk gets Tatar and Franzen going and Zetterberg gets Weiss and Alffie going.

On D the top pairing will be two all around guys, the second has Ericsson acting as the pure defensive guy for Smith and the third pairing has DD to cover up defensively for Quincey.

I'm sure there are holes in here but let's try something and stick with it longer then two periods.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

if holland didnt deliberately and intentionally sign lousy washed players for absurd amounts of money for what they bring(who spends millions of dollars on essentially 5th liners) then perhaps Babs would have more skill and grit to work with

as it stands he preaches a system we are not designed to deliver not capable of

we arent skilled enough nor fast enough nor tough enough to play any one particular system

so instead he is preaching an ultra conservative stifling boring system which unfortunately is terrible to watch and when you get behind thats where you stay