F Alexis Lafreniere - Rimouski Oceanic, QMJHL (2020 Draft) Part 2

[Peasy]

IT's crazy to say, but the european development has been better than the Canadian development.

In what way.

 

[HockeyDBspecialist]

In what way.

ratio of country population/number of drafted prosepcts vs Canada and US

 

[Bonin21]

Country population lol maybe not the best number.

What about # of youth hockey players vs draftees?

 

[S E P H]

Rimouski would have to agree with it and Hockey Canada would would need to sign off on the transfer.

99% this doesn't happen.

I am more curious about this, how can a team withhold a player from joining another league? I mean get it that his CHL contract with Rimouski will prevent him from playing in Junior A or another LHJMQ team in Canada, but how can it prevent him from not joining the KHL, USHL, or NLA if he truly wanted to?

 

[Bubbles]

I am more curious about this, how can a team withhold a player from joining another league? I mean get it that his CHL contract with Rimouski will prevent him from playing in Junior A or another LHJMQ team in Canada, but how can it prevent him from not joining the KHL, USHL, or NLA if he truly wanted to?

If a player really wanted, they could just plain tear up that contract and hop to those leagues. Not the USHL, because I think they have an agreement with the CHL.

For Austin Matthews, it was a really special case because he wasn't signed to a club, and didn't want to play in college. He was a basically a 17 year old free agent.

 

[SergeConstantin74]

He should, the Q sucks and it would be nice to see how he does against men.

You mean the league that won the 100th Memorial Cup? The CHL must suck then.

Clearly, it hurt Crosby playing for Rimouski in his Draft Year.

 

[SergeConstantin74]

His agents already confirmed he will remain in Rimouski next season. Nothing to talk about really.

 

[TimeZone]

You mean the league that won the 100th Memorial Cup? The CHL must suck then.

Clearly, it hurt Crosby playing for Rimouski in his Draft Year.

You've got a lot of ignorant folks on here who still think it's the 90's. The Q has improved leaps and bounds.

 

[Wallet Inspector]

I apologize if this is a stupid question, but has Lafreniere ever been tried at center?

 

[96]

You mean the league that won the 100th Memorial Cup? The CHL must suck then.

Clearly, it hurt Crosby playing for Rimouski in his Draft Year.

Lol wtf. I mean the league that’s won the LEAST amount of memorial cups

Your argument for the Q being good is Crosby a15 years ago...

Thanks for proving my point. The Q sucks.

 

[Jacob]

Yeah because sweden is a dumpster fire

There are reports in Malmö of several dumpsters being lit on fire, yes.

 

[93LEAFS]

So is this transfer from the CHL to a European league allowed? Like I mean is there any rules preventing it if Lafreniere did just decide he'd rather be in Europe?

The CHL/NHL agreement is for drafted players which obviously Lafreniere isn't.

Hockey Canada/QMJHL owns his transfer card until the age of 20 unless he goes to the NHL (at which point Hockey Canada and Rimouski are paid a transfer/development fee). These tend to be in the agreements signed when a player agrees to play in Major Junior. Hockey Canada would never let a prized prospect go to Europe like some are suggesting here. They would heavily fight this through litigation. Lafreniere may be able to break it, but it would require litigation, which may lead to an injunction stopping him from playing at all. I don't think any player wants to have their draft season play out in civil court, and the downside is huge. Not only does Hockey Canada/Rimouski lose a key player, but they also lose out on the development/transfer money.

 

[branch]

Hopefully (and most likely) Ottawa will have a shot at this kid next year if our GM doesn't trade his 1st rounder again...

 

[93LEAFS]

You've got a lot of ignorant folks on here who still think it's the 90's. The Q has improved leaps and bounds.

The Q is probably producing less NHLer than they did in the 90s. Now, I'm not sure on their distribution among the percentage of CHLers in the NHL has also gone down, but it wouldn't shock me. They have had trouble producing elite non-imports for years, particularly from Quebec. You have Crosby, MacKinnon, and Giroux (none of who are from Quebec).

The big difference is scoring has trended down in the Q, compared to prior years. But, the Q is pretty clearly the weakest of the 3 CHL leagues. No other leagues gives as many development spots to players who couldn't make Major Junior in another region. Just look at Charlottetown or Moncton's roster, and look how many kids they have who couldn't make OHL teams. Even Halifax has one of these.

 

[TimeZone]

The Q is probably producing less NHLer than they did in the 90s. Now, I'm not sure on their distribution among the percentage of CHLers in the NHL has also gone down, but it wouldn't shock me. They have had trouble producing elite non-imports for years, particularly from Quebec. You have Crosby, MacKinnon, and Giroux (none of who are from Quebec).

The big difference is scoring has trended down in the Q, compared to prior years. But, the Q is pretty clearly the weakest of the 3 CHL leagues. No other leagues gives as many development spots to players who couldn't make Major Junior in another region. Just look at Charlottetown or Moncton's roster, and look how many kids they have who couldn't make OHL teams. Even Halifax has one of these.

It's extremely difficult for me to acknowledge the Q being the weak-link of the CHL when they've won 4 of the last 8 memorial cups, as many as the OHL and WHL combined. It's not particularly difficult to understand why the OHL and WHL go on to produce more quality NHL talent when you look at population. We're talking about the present here, not the future. But since we're on that topic, the league leading Tampa Bay Lightning began the Season with an astonishing 10 former QMJHL players to begin their Season. Not bad.

 

[TheWhiskeyThief]

Hockey Canada/QMJHL owns his transfer card until the age of 20 unless he goes to the NHL (at which point Hockey Canada and Rimouski are paid a transfer/development fee). These tend to be in the agreements signed when a player agrees to play in Major Junior. Hockey Canada would never let a prized prospect go to Europe like some are suggesting here. They would heavily fight this through litigation.

Any player under 18 can transfer as they’re considered not to be under contract. Going this route would be on a free transfer. Article 5.1

Hockey Canada can refuse the transfer under a handful of reasons:
A) the Player wishing to Transfer has not fulfilled his contractual obligations to his former club

B) the Player has not fulfilled financial commitments to his former club such as debts or has not returned the club's equipment


The point is moot now, obviously.

 

[93LEAFS]

It's extremely difficult for me to acknowledge the Q being the weak-link of the CHL when they've won 4 of the last 8 memorial cups, as many as the OHL and WHL combined. It's not particularly difficult to understand why the OHL and WHL go on to produce more quality NHL talent when you look at population. We're talking about the present here, not the future.

They are the only league that heavily imports players passed over from another region. That is a better representative of the talent pool that the league has than Memorial Cups. Charlottetown has 7 Ontario kids on their team, Moncton has 3 from OHL drafting regions. Look at OHL teams, you see no WHL or QMJHL kids who are passed over. And, the OHL has won 3 of the last 4 or 5 of the last 10. You can choose selective cut-off points.

The memorial cup isn't really representative of much. It's 5 or 6 games, with single elimination. I've seen great teams win it like London in 2016 or average teams that didn't make it out of the first round like Windsor in 2017.

 

[93LEAFS]

Any player under 18 can transfer as they’re considered not to be under contract. Going this route would be on a free transfer. Article 5.1

Hockey Canada can refuse the transfer under a handful of reasons:
A) the Player wishing to Transfer has not fulfilled his contractual obligations to his former club

B) the Player has not fulfilled financial commitments to his former club such as debts or has not returned the club's equipment


The point is moot now, obviously.

Pretty sure they can sign binding agreements with their parents and proper representation. Either way, we are unlikely to see it play out.

 

[TimeZone]

They are the only league that heavily imports players passed over from another region. That is a better representative of the talent pool that the league has than Memorial Cups. Charlottetown has 7 Ontario kids on their team, Moncton has 3 from OHL drafting regions. Look at OHL teams, you see no WHL or QMJHL kids who are passed over. And, the OHL has won 3 of the last 4 or 6 of the last 10. You can choose selective cut-off points.

The memorial cup isn't really representative of much. It's 5 or 6 games, with single elimination. I've seen great teams win it like London in 2016 or average teams that didn't make it out of the first round like Windsor in 2017.

These are 15-16 year old kids who are obviously not finished developing yet, and how many of these guys are borderline players in any league anyway? Of course it would be moronic to suggest a player like Daniel Hardie wouldn't be a productive player in any league but the majority of these guys are roster fillers. It's hard to believe they couldn't bottom out on another team in the CHL, especially when teams like Flint exist. Whether I chose a selective number or not, is pretty irrelevant. The Q has won 50% of the last 8 memorial cups, that accounts for something. They've also shown to be more competitive in the past 10 memorial cups (since you want to be ironic) than the WHL as well. Plenty of sports (including this very one) use single game eliminations to determine who the best team is, it cannot be swept under the rug just because you want it to be.

 

[wein]

They are the only league that heavily imports players passed over from another region. That is a better representative of the talent pool that the league has than Memorial Cups. Charlottetown has 7 Ontario kids on their team, Moncton has 3 from OHL drafting regions. Look at OHL teams, you see no WHL or QMJHL kids who are passed over. And, the OHL has won 3 of the last 4 or 6 of the last 10. You can choose selective cut-off points.

The memorial cup isn't really representative of much. It's 5 or 6 games, with single elimination. I've seen great teams win it like London in 2016 or average teams that didn't make it out of the first round like Windsor in 2017.

Population is a factor in it. The OHL draws on the largest population so they will obviously have most major caliber players. Not to mention the Q has the smallest US region and the one that is most likely to go the college route.

Also, just because they were passed over doesn’t mean they aren’t Major Junior caliber. You brought up Giroux, OHL teams passed him over. What about a guy like Mackenzie Weegar? OHL GMs and coaches can make mistakes and miss guys. You’re treating them like they’re infallible.

Also, some guys just develop late. Zack McEwen is a good example. Wasn’t a Q regular until he was 19 and now at 22 is making his NHL debut.

Why does no one treat the WHL as the worst of the leagues? It seems whenever they play against the other leagues they are almost always the worst.

 

[93LEAFS]

These are 15-16 year old kids who are obviously not finished developing yet, and how many of these guys aren't borderline players in any league anyways? Of course it would be moronic to suggest a player like Daniel Hardie wouldn't be a productive player in any league but the majority of these guys are roster fillers. It's hard to believe they couldn't bottom out on another team in the CHL, especially when teams like Flint exist. Whether I chose a selective number or not, is pretty irrelevant. They've shown to be more competitive in the past 10 memorial cups (since you want to be ironic) than the WHL as well. Plenty of sports (including this very one) use single game eliminations to determine who the best team is, it cannot be swept under the rug just because you want it to be.

Except the Q is the only league who relies as heavily on outside talent. The issue is, Hardie could play elsewhere, but why aren't the Quebec players who slip through the cracks in a similar way as Hardie showing up in the OHL? It simply doesn't happen in reverse.

I'm just saying the Memorial Cup isn't representative of the disparity between the leagues. It's a one-off tournament once a year. Just look at where the talent ends up, and where the talent is emerging from. The fact that so many players who aren't able to crack OHL teams are ending up in the Q, shows that there is a talent disparity between the two leagues. The same applies to how many players get drafted out of each league. I think those are more representative than a tournament once a year. Or, how scoring from each league tends to translates to the likelihood of NHL success.

 

[93LEAFS]

Population is a factor in it. The OHL draws on the largest population so they will obviously have most major caliber players. Not to mention the Q has the smallest US region and the one that is most likely to go the college route.

Also, just because they were passed over doesn’t mean they aren’t Major Junior caliber. You brought up Giroux, OHL teams passed him over. What about a guy like Mackenzie Weegar? OHL GMs and coaches can make mistakes and miss guys. You’re treating them like they’re infallible.

Also, some guys just develop late. Zack McEwen is a good example. Wasn’t a Q regular until he was 19 and now at 22 is making his NHL debut.

Why does no one treat the WHL as the worst of the leagues? It seems whenever they play against the other leagues they are almost always the worst.

Except, why doesn't it happen in reverse? You don't see Quebec players on top OHL teams. Yes, kids who should have made the OHL get passed over (Giroux, DiDomenico, etc), but it is never happening in reverse, and we can't think that the QMJHL is just more flawless in player selection.

 

[TimeZone]

Except the Q is the only league who relies as heavily on outside talent. The issue is, Hardie could play elsewhere, but why aren't the Quebec players who slip through the cracks in a similar way as Hardie showing up in the OHL? It simply doesn't happen in reverse.

I'm just saying the Memorial Cup isn't representative of the disparity between the leagues. It's a one-off tournament once a year. Just look at where the talent ends up, and where the talent is emerging from. The fact that so many players who aren't able to crack OHL teams are ending up in the Q, shows that there is a talent disparity between the two leagues. The same applies to how many players get drafted out of each league. I think those are more representative than a tournament once a year. Or, how scoring from each league tends to translates to the likelihood of NHL success.

The Q doesn't rely "heavily" on outside talent, they fill their rosters with them. A good portion of those guys could, and should have been Drafted, but that's not particularly relevant anyway. They don't have the population that other areas do, obviously other more populated areas will produce more NHL talent, this wasn't disputed. We're talking about how competitive the league currently is, future success isn't relevant here. It goes without being said that top prospects are more likely to crack and NHL line-up quicker than a guy who's a late round pick-or worse, that doesn't mean a 16 year old prospect with a quality NHL future is better than a 20 year old late round Draft selection.


The Memorial Cup is the only display we get between the leagues going head to head so to speak, acting as if it's irrelevant is foolish. The NCAA produces less NHL Draft picks than the CHL, yet we're all aware that's a tougher league to play in. You need to read beyond the lines a bit here.

 

[93LEAFS]

The Q doesn't rely "heavily" on outside talent, they fill their rosters with them. A good portion of those guys could, and should have been Drafted, but that's not particularly relevant anyway. They don't have the population that other areas do, obviously other more populated areas will produce more NHL talent, this wasn't disputed. We're talking about how competitive the league currently is, future success isn't relevant here. It goes without being said that top prospects are more likely to crack and NHL line-up quicker than a guy who's a late round pick-or worse, that doesn't mean a 16 year old prospect with a quality NHL future is better than a 20 year old late round Draft selection.


The Memorial Cup is the only display we get between the leagues going head to head so to speak, acting as if it's irrelevant is foolish. The NCAA produces less NHL Draft picks than the CHL, yet we're all aware that's a tougher league to play in. You need to read beyond the lines a bit here.

The NCAA is tougher because of the age difference. Something that doesn't apply across CHL leagues. It's pretty irrelevant because it is 4 of a possible 60 CHL teams. It's a great event but isn't representative of overall league strength. We could go through the pre-season games for example, where Moncton lost to 3 OHL teams or Ottawa record vs Gatineau (It's been pretty even over the past two years).

The amount of players who graduate out of a league due to being NHL ready is hardly relevant. 95% or more of the drafted talent sticks around until they graduate out of the CHL at 20 (with a couple staying in the 3 overage spots). We are talking about a very small amount of players. For example, the OHL is just missing Svechnikov, and Robert Thomas, the QMJHL is missing Hischier (A couple others are in the AHL due to import loopholes like Sandin and Zadina). Just look at the raw amount of players drafted within the same age pool.

 

[Dodospice]

Except, why doesn't it happen in reverse? You don't see Quebec players on top OHL teams. Yes, kids who should have made the OHL get passed over (Giroux, DiDomenico, etc), but it is never happening in reverse, and we can't think that the QMJHL is just more flawless in player selection.

I don’t think it means their league is any weaker, you see a lot of these kids produce and they’d produce regardless of what league they were in. I think what it really shows (and we already know) is that they have such a small talent pool to pick from that they literally have no choice but to pick up players from other leagues.

Quebec and all the Maritime provinces combined still has roughly 4 million less people then the OHL, and roughly 1 million less than the WHL (not including territories).

While this doesn’t include the American players at their disposal where the Q is practically non-existent. The WHL has had 40 Americans suit up for them this season and the OHL 52, so that just pushes more local players out of spots and too other leagues if they want to keep playing. If the Q had any ability of getting American players to come, which will never happen due to the territory they got, Hockey East has that in a stranglehold, then you’d see way less players from other leagues coming to the Q, I think.

You combine all those factors with the fact that more and more Maritime and Quebec kids it seems are willing to throw their hat into the QMJHL ring and all of a sudden, they’re in even more of a bind because losing a kid to the NCAA in the Q has a bigger impact then losing one if you’re in the OHL/WHL due to the lack of players available to replace them with.

So to answer your question, the reason it doesn’t happen in reverse is 1) they have a smaller population of players to pick from right off the bat, 2) there’s no American presence pushing CHL caliber players out of their respective leagues, 3) the Q is impacted more when a kid goes to the NCAA as they don’t have the numbers to supplement them like other leagues.

It isn’t an issue of the Q being weaker then all the other leagues, they’re producing just as much talent as them, they can play right with them, it really comes down to the fact they have a significantly smaller number of players to pick from and no Americans to supplement their league. If the Q could get the same drawing power as the OHL/WHL and simply had more people to pick from then they wouldn’t have as many out of region players on their roster. In fact, if things were comparable between the 3 leagues then you’d probably see more guys from the Q fall through the cracks and end up infiltrating other leagues but because of all the factors I’ve mentioned, that’s not currently in the cards for the Q.

Don’t however, make the mistake of thinking that the Q has to take players from other leagues because they’re weaker, they have to take players from other leagues due to factors that are really out of their control.