Confirmed with Link: DRW Trades for Marc Staal

[Frk It]

For some reason I always thought Marc was right handed, I like this a little better that he is a LD actually. Cool with the trade, we have some good draft capital for next year.

Is it sad that I am more concerned with there being a spot for Lindstrom as opposed to Cholowski on defense?

 

[ShippinItDaily]

Someone suddenly got a lot less upbeat about Mantha.

I think five years is a forced death march for getting anything useful out of Mantha/Bert/Larkin, and that you're overstating what's needed to be a playoff team now. We see a team like Tampa stockpile talent and play a game that lets it look sexy, but they still haven't won a Cup and can't put away a pretty run of the mill dallas team. We saw St. Louis win a cup last year with a good center, no elite winger, and a rookie goalie. Boston has one line and McAvoy? And I don't see McAvoy as exactly a Norris contender. People were greasing NYI's skis earlier, how many elite players do they have? Barzal? And a lot of good players everywhere else.

On top of that, what is the reward for being the worst team in the league? 50% chance of drafting fourth. We're awful again next year, we're likely drafting third or fourth.We're awful the year after that, likely the same result.

Someone wants to make the argument to not stockpile talent ahead of the expansion draft, I can get that. Why go out and get someone just to force some other quality depth off the roster in nine months. But to latch onto five years until we start fighting for the playoffs, it's a waste of time and if you're going to chalk up everyone we currently have as barely good, we need to gut them now because in five years they won't be better. If that's the timeline.

Five years until relevancy is being overly negative. I know that's not what you're saying here and I didn't read Bench's post to say that exactly either.

Most of the terrible contracts are gone now and they all become expired or manageable by the end of this year. This year will almost certainly be bad again, but if we find a capable goalie, good health and a couple of surprises it will definitely be bearable.

The true gauge comes after this season ahead. Were Seider, Zadina and the 4th overall pick able to take significant steps forward and establish themselves? Did Mantha put a full season together? Did a few prospects dominate at their level and assert themselves as ready for primetime?

If the answer to a couple of those questions is no then we could be in trouble and in this tire fire for a couple more years than what I'm suggesting. But the bar to a "yes" on these questions isn't that high and I think the future could be looking a lot brighter one year from now if we see the development and some more futures asset acquisitions by Yzerman.

 

[Winger98]

We will see, the problem with trying to package our picks is we need a partner where that makes sense for them. Most teams don't want the quality for quantity deal, but that is really down to draft boards on a straight pick swap deal.

On players, if we aren't out of this or seeing positive signs in a year or two, our big ticket rebuild items are going to be dealing some of the Mantha, Bertuzzi, Larkin and Hronek type guys. I don't think we are there yet, but if we aren't looking to come up after the 2022 draft that reality sets in and those guys are worth big packages from other teams more than likely. As is I think we finally are getting to where we can at least get assets for some of our guys again sans Nielsen and Abdelkader. Somebody should pay us for Helm and Glendening. I would argue what Coleman and Goodrow are doing is really good for a Glendening swap, might get us another second. We don't have first round movement though for the most part, just the reality of the pieces we are selling to date.

It's a tricky spot, we know we want to pick higher, but right now we cannot return those assets. I think that is why Stevie and Holland before him is moving in the deliberate fashion they have been.

We don't see it much in the NHL, at least that I can remember, but I really sort of hope we can draft someone at 4th, and then flip them to someone like Jersey who maybe finds a way to draft Askarov and Lundell but aren't as enamored with them as they are with whoever we picked at 4th. I know you really like some of the guys available at 4th, but I really like the idea of being able to pick up a couple of other guys in place of that one.

 

[14ari13]

Someone suddenly got a lot less upbeat about Mantha.

I think five years is a forced death march for getting anything useful out of Mantha/Bert/Larkin, and that you're overstating what's needed to be a playoff team now. We see a team like Tampa stockpile talent and play a game that lets it look sexy, but they still haven't won a Cup and can't put away a pretty run of the mill dallas team. We saw St. Louis win a cup last year with a good center, no elite winger, and a rookie goalie. Boston has one line and McAvoy? And I don't see McAvoy as exactly a Norris contender. People were greasing NYI's skis earlier, how many elite players do they have? Barzal? And a lot of good players everywhere else.

On top of that, what is the reward for being the worst team in the league? 50% chance of drafting fourth. We're awful again next year, we're likely drafting third or fourth.We're awful the year after that, likely the same result.

Someone wants to make the argument to not stockpile talent ahead of the expansion draft, I can get that. Why go out and get someone just to force some other quality depth off the roster in nine months. But to latch onto five years until we start fighting for the playoffs, it's a waste of time and if you're going to chalk up everyone we currently have as barely good, we need to gut them now because in five years they won't be better. If that's the timeline.

I do not think Mantha is going to be too old in 5 years.

Haha haha. Tell us how you really feel

Think he just misunderstood it. He thought we gave up a 2nd instead we got Staal and a 2nd

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

This is the kind of trades the Wings should have been making for several years now. Nice to see it finally happening. Using cap space to take on other teams bad contracts, fill a serviceable roster spot, and add picks.

 

[Henkka]

For some reason I always thought Marc was right handed, I like this a little better that he is a LD actually. Cool with the trade, we have some good draft capital for next year.

Is it sad that I am more concerned with there being a spot for Lindstrom as opposed to Cholowski on defense?

So far it's Cholowski/Lindström battle. Cholowski did play on the right too.

DeKeyser - Hronek
M.Staal - Seider
Nemeth - Lindström/Cholowski
8th Biega

 

[MBH]

Maybe.

But it's still totally possible that:

- trades for Staal to get a 2nd. = gains an asset.
- trades Nemeth to get a pick and Staal replaces him. = gains an asset.
- signs Krug. = gains an asset.

Just adds positive value on the team on every move.

DeKeyser - Hronek
Krug - X
Staal - Seider

Or maybe he doesn't go after Krug, and signs Tyson Barrie to add RhD, and does not trade Nemeth.

DeKeyser - Hronek
Nemeth - Barrie
Staal - Seider

1.PP Tyson Barrie
2.PP Hronek + Seider

1.PK DeKeyser-Nemeth
2.PK Staal-Seider/Hronek

Anything is possible.
I think it's pretty clear we're set on LD for next season.

 

[MBH]

For some reason I always thought Marc was right handed, I like this a little better that he is a LD actually. Cool with the trade, we have some good draft capital for next year.

Is it sad that I am more concerned with there being a spot for Lindstrom as opposed to Cholowski on defense?

I don't get what everyone sees in Lindstrom.
I get potential in Cholowski. I've seen the upside at the NHL level.
His inability to show it again is one of the biggest mysteries about the current Red Wings roster.

 

[Winger98]

Five years until relevancy is being overly negative. I know that's not what you're saying here and I didn't read Bench's post to say that exactly either.

Most of the terrible contracts are gone now and they all become expired or manageable by the end of this year. This year will almost certainly be bad again, but if we find a capable goalie, good health and a couple of surprises it will definitely be bearable.

The true gauge comes after this season ahead. Were Seider, Zadina and the 4th overall pick able to take significant steps forward and establish themselves? Did Mantha put a full season together? Did a few prospects dominate at their level and assert themselves as ready for primetime?

If the answer to a couple of those questions is no then we could be in trouble and in this tire fire for a couple more years than what I'm suggesting. But the bar to a "yes" on these questions isn't that high and I think the future could be looking a lot brighter one year from now if we see the development and some more futures asset acquisitions by Yzerman.

I don't think it's negative, I think that's the sort of timeline that goes with what Bench is saying. Look at Seider and Zadina. They might make the NHL this year, but it's still going to be a couple of years before they become guys we expect to lean on. Whoever we draft at 4th this year is likely 3 years out from those sort of expectations. For whoever we draft in the next two drafts after this one, have a similar expectation for a timeline. These guys might be able to come up and be complementary pieces, but that's not what I get from Bench's post, or other posts that have been in a similar vein.

People are expecting Larkin/Bert/Mantha to be the complimentary pieces. It is going to take time for guys to be drafted, to develop, and to work their way up the lineup to displace them.

Five years will go by really fast.

I do not think Mantha is going to be too old in 5 years.

well, the post I'm seeing is saying he's maybe a first line wing, which looks like it's saying he's a second liner right now. Bert is clearly not a first liner then. Larkin is good. They aren't going to get better in five years.

I don't get what everyone sees in Lindstrom.
I get potential in Cholowski. I've seen the upside at the NHL level.
His inability to show it again is one of the biggest mysteries about the current Red Wings roster.

He's a safe, apparently reliable third pair D that we don't have to spend several million on. With the team we have, yeah, he's not that important. We just flat out need better players. If we had a better top4 ahead of him, he'd be invaluable.

 

[Frk It]

I don't get what everyone sees in Lindstrom.
I get potential in Cholowski. I've seen the upside at the NHL level.
His inability to show it again is one of the biggest mysteries about the current Red Wings roster.

Who do you trust more to play 15-17 min a night right now? That’s the guy I’m more concerned with there being a spot for.

I know Cholowski has some nice tools, but at some point I need to see some growth, and the last 12-18 months we have only seen the opposite.

 

[jkutswings]

I don't get what everyone sees in Lindstrom.
I get potential in Cholowski. I've seen the upside at the NHL level.
His inability to show it again is one of the biggest mysteries about the current Red Wings roster.

I think Cholowski is going through a microcosm of what Larkin faced:

A hot start, where nobody had much tape on him, and he took advantage of it. Then the league figured out how to adjust to the player, and there was a slump. The next step is the player needs to adjust to the adjustment.

Larkin learned that he couldn't just fly around the perimeter at full speed the whole time, and he put in the work to diversify and grow his game. We'll see if Cholowski responds to his own adversity.

 

[Dotter]

I don't get what everyone sees in Lindstrom.
I get potential in Cholowski. I've seen the upside at the NHL level.
His inability to show it again is one of the biggest mysteries about the current Red Wings roster.

I am very happy with him. He's calm and steady. He's dynamic, has good stick work, fine positioning and moves the puck out of the defensive zone proficiently.

No, he's not a 40 point dman, but he's a reliable young asset with untapped upside and middle pairing potential. He reminds me of a poor man's Niklas Hjalmarsson.

Also note, he's younger than Cholowski who's ceiling is also a middle pairing dman. Lindstrom, on the other hand, is at worst a cheap bottom pairing solution... while Cholo, who is going to be 23 in February, is nearing bust status.

EDIT: this upcoming training camp will be the most important training camp of Cholowski's career. He better make the absolute best of it.

 

[deca guard]

 

[MBH]

He's a safe, apparently reliable third pair D that we don't have to spend several million on. With the team we have, yeah, he's not that important. We just flat out need better players. If we had a better top4 ahead of him, he'd be invaluable.

Right. Sounds like Marchenko and I liked Marchenko.
But do you honestly see a team running Hronek/Seider/Lindstrom down the right side in the next season or two?
Seems like a good way to give these kids no rest, no stabilizing force to give them a breather when they're getting rocked.
That 3rd RD slot is where we are going to need a veteran who can come in and play the first PK and big minutes when the kids are struggling.

Especially when you consider a) our coaching b) our centers.

 

[Ezekial]

If Marchenko could skate he might've been a useful player.

Lindstrom can play D, has a good first pass, doesn't succumb to pressure in his own zone, and although he isn't an elite skater he doesn't have cinder blocks for feet.

 

[Ricelund]

Man, I like Kevin Allen but that post was lazy.

 

[Hockeyfannnn91]

Lets praise steve yzerman just because

 

[14ari13]

I don't think it's negative, I think that's the sort of timeline that goes with what Bench is saying. Look at Seider and Zadina. They might make the NHL this year, but it's still going to be a couple of years before they become guys we expect to lean on. Whoever we draft at 4th this year is likely 3 years out from those sort of expectations. For whoever we draft in the next two drafts after this one, have a similar expectation for a timeline. These guys might be able to come up and be complementary pieces, but that's not what I get from Bench's post, or other posts that have been in a similar vein.

People are expecting Larkin/Bert/Mantha to be the complimentary pieces. It is going to take time for guys to be drafted, to develop, and to work their way up the lineup to displace them.

Five years will go by really fast.




well, the post I'm seeing is saying he's maybe a first line wing, which looks like it's saying he's a second liner right now. Bert is clearly not a first liner then. Larkin is good. They aren't going to get better in five years.



He's a safe, apparently reliable third pair D that we don't have to spend several million on. With the team we have, yeah, he's not that important. We just flat out need better players. If we had a better top4 ahead of him, he'd be invaluable.

I wonder if I actually meant to reply to some else, but lost the post. Lol

Sorry for messing it up.

 

[Frk It]

Right. Sounds like Marchenko and I liked Marchenko.
But do you honestly see a team running Hronek/Seider/Lindstrom down the right side in the next season or two?
Seems like a good way to give these kids no rest, no stabilizing force to give them a breather when they're getting rocked.
That 3rd RD slot is where we are going to need a veteran who can come in and play the first PK and big minutes when the kids are struggling.

Especially when you consider a) our coaching b) our centers.

They could literally all be playing with a veteran as their partner on the left side, so I don’t see an issue with those pairings whatsoever.

 

[Mlotek]

Five years until relevancy is being overly negative. I know that's not what you're saying here and I didn't read Bench's post to say that exactly either.

Most of the terrible contracts are gone now and they all become expired or manageable by the end of this year. This year will almost certainly be bad again, but if we find a capable goalie, good health and a couple of surprises it will definitely be bearable.

The true gauge comes after this season ahead. Were Seider, Zadina and the 4th overall pick able to take significant steps forward and establish themselves? Did Mantha put a full season together? Did a few prospects dominate at their level and assert themselves as ready for primetime?

If the answer to a couple of those questions is no then we could be in trouble and in this tire fire for a couple more years than what I'm suggesting. But the bar to a "yes" on these questions isn't that high and I think the future could be looking a lot brighter one year from now if we see the development and some more futures asset acquisitions by Yzerman.

Being relevant and things being better are two very different things.

Wings were on pace for 20 wins, this was the worst season since the dead wings era in the 80s and they didn't even have a loser point back then.

Brighter (better) doesn't mean relevent, to me that just me things are a bit better.


Also it depends what he means by relevant. What is that criteria for that? Pushing for the playoffs? Making playoffs? Being a contender? Something else?

Let's say making playoffs is your criteria for relevent.

Edmonton had a plethora of top picks over the years, yet only made playoffs once. since their lucky 06 cup final appearance.
Buffalo hasn't made the playoffs since Ruff missed it by a couple points his last full season there. Just look back over the past decades for how long their prospect pool was considered one of the best in the league. Which is also why I don't care diddly about those rankings. Keep in mind even if you are on the top very few of those highly touted prospects make the NHL, fewer still make a big impact.
Florida made the playoffs twice in the past 20 years! True much of that was due to their own mismanagement.

 

[Gniwder]

I don't get what everyone sees in Lindstrom.
I get potential in Cholowski. I've seen the upside at the NHL level.
His inability to show it again is one of the biggest mysteries about the current Red Wings roster.

He's not scared to get touched like Cholo or Biega, and he appears to have at least half a brain unlike Bowey. Also, Cholo keeps getting worse and worse.

Lindstrom at least looks like he could possibly be a full time NHL D eventually, none of the other prospects except Seider has shown that yet.

 

[WingsMJN2965]

Carolina got a 1st for the Marleau contract.

moreover 2nd round picks are overrated assets.

It's fun that people continue to delude themselves into thinking cap dumps are super valuable because Toronto's GM (Who sucks at negotiating in the first place) paid a 1st to get rid of a guy who refused to waive his NTC for anything short of SJS or a buyout.

 

[Retire91]

We still have several years of sucking so I was kinda hoping for a bigger splash in the cap dump market to pull in a first but a second isn't bad for one year and when it falls off next year it opens our books open to do it again. Nice wYzerplan in action as long as this is the only season we see Staal or he extends at league minimum.

 

[newfy]

We still have several years of sucking so I was kinda hoping for a bigger splash in the cap dump market to pull in a first but a second isn't bad for one year and when it falls off next year it opens our books open to do it again. Nice wYzerplan in action as long as this is the only season we see Staal or he extends at league minimum.

Still enough room to do it again this year and Yzerman said as much in his interview

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Assuming we don't sign/trade for a Krug/Brodie/UFA/RFA etc.

I'd like to see this:

DDK-Hronek
Nemeth-Seider
Staal-Lindstrom

DDK & Hronek are too important to our 5on5, so they should only do spot duty on PK as needed.

PK1 Nemeth-Seider
PK2 Staal-Lindstrom

Staal has limited mobility & shouldn't be in our Top4. He can still be an on ice mentor for Lindstrom & off-ice mentor for all our young D.

PP1 Bert-Larkin-Mantha-Hronek + Zadina?
PP2 Gagner-Fabbri-DDK-Seider + Rasmussen?