Drew Doughty vs Zdeno Chara

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Hey remember when Karlsson defensively and offensively dismantled the Bruins in the 2017 playoffs. That must have been confusing for you to watch.

The dreaded 1-3-1. Don't remind me of those snoozefests.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I didn't say that I also didn't watch some of his regular season games.

And it's really funny how much of a pass that Doughty gets for his recent playoff performance. Any other d would have been crucified.

You are either shitting me or you're absolutely blind because you're one of the first to arrive at the scene with a pitchfork the moment doughty breathes out of the perceived wrong side of his mouth.

He got roasted relentlessly--and appropriately--for his performance vs. the Sharks. Of course, that was 3+ years ago, so if you don't remember that, maybe there are more important things in your life.

He played really f***ing good against VGK and got roasted relentlessly anyway. But I get the feeling you remember that.

Stop with the martyr complex, because he gets shit just like anyone else--maybe more since there's a crew of TBL/OTT/Sweden fans who are looking for his every miscue and calling him overrated. The 'problem' is his defensive miscues are much less frequent than you want. I mean, how many "X vs. Doughty" polls are you going to create until you start believing some of what people say about him?

 

[Agent Zub]

You are either ****ting me or you're absolutely blind because you're one of the first to arrive at the scene with a pitchfork the moment doughty breathes out of the perceived wrong side of his mouth.

He got roasted relentlessly--and appropriately--for his performance vs. the Sharks. Of course, that was 3+ years ago, so if you don't remember that, maybe there are more important things in your life.

He played really ****ing good against VGK and got roasted relentlessly anyway. But I get the feeling you remember that.

Stop with the martyr complex, because he gets **** just like anyone else--maybe more since there's a crew of TBL/OTT/Sweden fans who are looking for his every miscue and calling him overrated. The 'problem' is his defensive miscues are much less frequent than you want. I mean, how many "X vs. Doughty" polls are you going to create until you start believing some of what people say about him?

Man you have a severe persecution complex.

I've been making polls about a lot of defenceman not just Doughty.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Man you have a severe persecution complex.

I've been making polls about a lot of defenceman not just Doughty.

I call it like I see it. But you know that as we've gone over it before.

But really it's not so much about the polls, it's that they're masked as discussion when you actually have no intention of listening to feedback. Some folks have a preconceived notion about what this defenseman is and aren't open to what others are saying about them. I know this frustrates you too for a different dman, so it's doubly irritating when you take the thing you hate most about Player A discussion and instead use it as your M.O. in Player B discussion.

 

[amnesiac]

Chara should have had two to be fair and is historically one of the better shut down defensemen of all time.

what year should he have won the other Norris?

 

[Aladyyn]

I'm just going to say that I voted Doughty but at the same time I do believe Chara is going to be underrated in 15-20 years.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

what year should he have won the other Norris?

The last year Lidstrom won.

 

[authentic]

I'd take Doughty slightly, but at their best you could go with either one really.

 

[triggrman]

The last year Lidstrom won.

Should have been Weber's.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Should have been Weber's.

Chara outplayed him that year, despite the hype train he had going.

CF/CFrel:

Chara: 54.1/4.3
Weber: 51.0/2.5

FF/FFrel:

Chara: 53.2/3.5
Weber: 49.8/1.6

ES GF/GA:

Chara: 82/50
Weber: 68/63

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Should have been Weber's.

I agree they were 1 and 2 but I don't see how Chara doesn't win if not for Lidstrom's reputation win.

 

[triggrman]

I agree they were 1 and 2 but I don't see how Chara doesn't win if not for Lidstrom's reputation win.

Since the Preds did not make the playoffs that year, I agree. I do think though, Weber deserved it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I agree they were 1 and 2 but I don't see how Chara doesn't win if not for Lidstrom's reputation win.

Since the Preds did not make the playoffs that year, I agree. I do think though, Weber deserved it.

It was definitely a toss up that year. I mean they first place finishes were 35, 32, and 33. I had hoped Chara would walk away with it, but I wasn’t going to be shocked if Weber did.....then I was really shocked

 

[psycat]

This idea makes no sense. Sure EK had an extraordinary year offensively, but Doughty was by far the better defenseman in all aspects of the position other than offense, but he still put up great numbers.

Zetterberg compared to Ovechkin was far better at all aspects of the game except offence and he still put up great offensive numbers. I mean that's basically the gap we are dealing with here.

Obviously that's also ignoring the fact that Karlsson was the first dman since Orr to lead the league in assists, generational talent. Don't get me wrong Doughty is a great defenceman just a clear notch, or two really, below.

As for the topic it's Chara for now I suspect that Doughty will pass him.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Zetterberg compared to Ovechkin was far better at all aspects of the game except offence and he still put up great offensive numbers. I mean that's basically the gap we are dealing with here.

Obviously that's also ignoring the fact that Karlsson was the first dman since Orr to lead the league in assists, generational talent. Don't get me wrong Doughty is a great defenceman just a clear notch, or two really, below.

As for the topic it's Chara for now I suspect that Doughty will pass him.

The difference offensively between EK and Doughty isn’t the same as Zetterberg and Ovechkin though. Zetterberg had one season that was anywhere close to Ovechkin, and Ovechkin still out produced him by a wide margin.

Being better offensively doesn’t make Doughty a notch below Doughty though, especially given the fact that Doughty is still great offensively while being a superior player defensively. People are so infatuated with his stats that they forget that he isn’t elite in his own end, something a “generational” defenseman should be, right? I mean he led the league in assists, awesome....but people still like to forget that he was a negative player and not strong in his own end. Those will go against any defenseman.

EKs offense isn’t enough to make him a better overall defenseman, and Doughty is in fact that. The gap between Doughty and Chara is smaller though with the edge going to Doughty in most cases due to his offense, but both are defensive studs.....EK isn’t.

 

[Sol]

Man you have a severe persecution complex.

I've been making polls about a lot of defenceman not just Doughty.

You got caught bro. Even I have noticed your tendencies. Doughty > Karlsson >Hedman.

 

[Agent Zub]

You got caught bro. Even I have noticed your tendencies. Doughty > Karlsson >Hedman.

caught at what lol

what tendencies?

severe persecution complex by all of you.

 

[psycat]

The difference offensively between EK and Doughty isn’t the same as Zetterberg and Ovechkin though. Zetterberg had one season that was anywhere close to Ovechkin, and Ovechkin still out produced him by a wide margin.

Being better offensively doesn’t make Doughty a notch below Doughty though, especially given the fact that Doughty is still great offensively while being a superior player defensively. People are so infatuated with his stats that they forget that he isn’t elite in his own end, something a “generational” defenseman should be, right? I mean he led the league in assists, awesome....but people still like to forget that he was a negative player and not strong in his own end. Those will go against any defenseman.

EKs offense isn’t enough to make him a better overall defenseman, and Doughty is in fact that. The gap between Doughty and Chara is smaller though with the edge going to Doughty in most cases due to his offense, but both are defensive studs.....EK isn’t.

Drew is your average great defenceman, Erik Karlsson is a generational offensive defenceman who might very well be the best at what he does since Coffey. There is no comparison to be made really. EK is also great defensively as proven by his play at international tournaments. Not his fault he was placed on a highly medicore team that he had to drag offensively hence making him vulnerable defensively. You will see this now that he is on a team that is actually not dogshit.

And yes it works both ways, might be his offensive numbers take a hit on the Sharks although I don't really expect them to, point is I very much doubt Doughty could carry those Sens teams anywhere near as well as Karlsson, he simply lacks the talent.

Anyway the thread is about Chara vs Doughty so Ill leave it at that and I see no reason to rank Doughty ahead at this point.

 

[Agent Zub]

The difference offensively between EK and Doughty isn’t the same as Zetterberg and Ovechkin though. Zetterberg had one season that was anywhere close to Ovechkin, and Ovechkin still out produced him by a wide margin.

Being better offensively doesn’t make Doughty a notch below Doughty though, especially given the fact that Doughty is still great offensively while being a superior player defensively. People are so infatuated with his stats that they forget that he isn’t elite in his own end, something a “generational” defenseman should be, right? I mean he led the league in assists, awesome....but people still like to forget that he was a negative player and not strong in his own end. Those will go against any defenseman.

EKs offense isn’t enough to make him a better overall defenseman, and Doughty is in fact that. The gap between Doughty and Chara is smaller though with the edge going to Doughty in most cases due to his offense, but both are defensive studs.....EK isn’t.

Karlsson is great defensively, and it'll be interesting to see the mental gymnastics West Conference and Kings fans do when he's dominating 200 ft of ice.

 

[Agent Zub]

I call it like I see it. But you know that as we've gone over it before.

But really it's not so much about the polls, it's that they're masked as discussion when you actually have no intention of listening to feedback. Some folks have a preconceived notion about what this defenseman is and aren't open to what others are saying about them. I know this frustrates you too for a different dman, so it's doubly irritating when you take the thing you hate most about Player A discussion and instead use it as your M.O. in Player B discussion.

like i said severe persecution complex.

And im not the one saying that Doughty is a NET NEGATIVE which is your opinion of Karlsson. Tons of people here think that Karlsson is a liability on the ice. people like the great gonzo who can't fathom what the defensive position actually entails.

Now I say that Doughty is top 5 defenceman but that hes overrated by Canadian media and its me who has the totally out of wack perception of reality? While these same people think of Karlsson as a liability? Laughable.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Karlsson is great defensively, and it'll be interesting to see the mental gymnastics West Conference and Kings fans do when he's dominating 200 ft of ice.

Not consistently. Not yet anyway. Don't need mental gymnastics when realistic all along.

like i said severe persecution complex.

And im not the one saying that Doughty is a NET NEGATIVE which is your opinion of Karlsson. Tons of people here think that Karlsson is a liability on the ice. people like the great gonzo who can't fathom what the defensive position actually entails.

Now I say that Doughty is top 5 defenceman but that hes overrated by Canadian media and its me who has the totally out of wack perception of reality? While these same people think of Karlsson as a liability? Laughable.

Neither am I, and I've said many flattering things about him, and you know that. but believe whatever you want to believe in order to keep your martyrdom active.

The bigger problem is this BS line that folks like @psycat keep feeding where Doughty is merely a top-15 d-man because folks just don't know what he does. Even calling him top-5 rather than top-3 is borderline trolling considering the source. That's a gentle patronizing pat on the head--"doughty is obviously great, he's a top-5 guy" is like me saying "Karlsson is amazing, just like Phil Housely."

Truth is people don't know how to quantify 'defense' properly so lots of the guys on the front page of the polls right now--including Chara, Doughty, Ryan Suter, Weber, etc.--just get slapped with the 'overrated' tag, and mocked as 'good ol canadian grit boys' (not chara but you get it).

 

[Agent Zub]

Not consistently. Not yet anyway. Don't need mental gymnastics when realistic all along.




Neither am I, and I've said many flattering things about him, and you know that. but believe whatever you want to believe in order to keep your martyrdom active.

The bigger problem is this BS line that folks like @psycat keep feeding where Doughty is merely a top-15 d-man because folks just don't know what he does. Even calling him top-5 rather than top-3 is borderline trolling considering the source. That's a gentle patronizing pat on the head--"doughty is obviously great, he's a top-5 guy" is like me saying "Karlsson is amazing, just like Phil Housely."

Truth is people don't know how to quantify 'defense' properly so lots of the guys on the front page of the polls right now--including Chara, Doughty, Ryan Suter, Weber, etc.--just get slapped with the 'overrated' tag, and mocked as 'good ol canadian grit boys' (not chara but you get it).

lol yea people dont know how to evaluate defense because we have bunch of geniuses on here who think that Karlsson is a liability. When NHL coaches play him 10 minutes of the 3rd in elimination playoff games to secure the 1 goal win. but yea trash defensively.

and anyway you did call him a net negative in his 82 point season. go ahead and deny because im not gonna bother to go find the quote. but you and i both know you did.

 

[psycat]

Not consistently. Not yet anyway. Don't need mental gymnastics when realistic all along.




Neither am I, and I've said many flattering things about him, and you know that. but believe whatever you want to believe in order to keep your martyrdom active.

The bigger problem is this BS line that folks like @psycat keep feeding where Doughty is merely a top-15 d-man because folks just don't know what he does. Even calling him top-5 rather than top-3 is borderline trolling considering the source. That's a gentle patronizing pat on the head--"doughty is obviously great, he's a top-5 guy" is like me saying "Karlsson is amazing, just like Phil Housely."

Truth is people don't know how to quantify 'defense' properly so lots of the guys on the front page of the polls right now--including Chara, Doughty, Ryan Suter, Weber, etc.--just get slapped with the 'overrated' tag, and mocked as 'good ol canadian grit boys' (not chara but you get it).

You making an ill informed statement about Karlsson doesn't mean a statement about Doughty is any less true.

That said I would rank Doughty in my current top 3, I think.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Drew is your average great defenceman, Erik Karlsson is a generational offensive defenceman who might very well be the best at what he does since Coffey. There is no comparison to be made really. EK is also great defensively as proven by his play at international tournaments. Not his fault he was placed on a highly medicore team that he had to drag offensively hence making him vulnerable defensively. You will see this now that he is on a team that is actually not dog****.

And yes it works both ways, might be his offensive numbers take a hit on the Sharks, although I don't really expect them to, point is I very much doubt Doughty could carry those Sens teams anywhere near as well as Karlsson, he simply lacks the talent.

Anyway the thread is about Chara vs Doughty so Ill leave it at that and I see no reason to rank Doughty ahead at this point.

EK has shown glimpses of great defensive play, but he isn’t consistent and they are far and few.

Sure, being on the team he was, I’m sure his defense took a hit because he was their offensive weapon, but that doesn’t mean he has always had great defensive awareness or that he’s simply sacrificing it. That’s his game, a very offensive oriented game, while Doughty eats up the tougher minutes, more defensive responsibilities, and still is able to produce.

You say it’s “both ways” yet say Doughty lacks the talent to be as great offensively as EK, yet EK will now be great defensively because of a better team? Maybe EK lacks that talent in his own end? Like you said, it goes both ways.

It will be interesting to see how EK adapts to the sharks. He finally has a supporting car around him to benefit from. The question is, can he raise his defensive game and be better in his own end.

Karlsson is great defensively, and it'll be interesting to see the mental gymnastics West Conference and Kings fans do when he's dominating 200 ft of ice.

EK is very inconsistent when it comes to his own end. Everyone knows this. Your only playing dumb when it comes to this. Can he be great defensively? Yes, but he isn’t and when he was, it wasn’t for any significant time frame.

Being able to lead a Rush, be an elite playmaker, and lead your team in points doesn’t make you a great “200 foot player.” It means he is an offensive guy first and puts his responsibilities in his own zone second to scoring.

 

[psycat]

EK has shown glimpses of great defensive play, but he isn’t consistent and they are far and few.

Sure, being on the team he was, I’m sure his defense took a hit because he was their offensive weapon, but that doesn’t mean he has always had great defensive awareness or that he’s simply sacrificing it. That’s his game, a very offensive oriented game, while Doughty eats up the tougher minutes, more defensive responsibilities, and still is able to produce.

You say it’s “both ways” yet say Doughty lacks the talent to be as great offensively as EK, yet EK will now be great defensively because of a better team? Maybe EK lacks that talent in his own end? Like you said, it goes both ways.

It will be interesting to see how EK adapts to the sharks. He finally has a supporting car around him to benefit from. The question is, can he raise his defensive game and be better in his own end.

EK is very inconsistent when it comes to his own end. Everyone knows this. Your only playing dumb when it comes to this. Can he be great defensively? Yes, but he isn’t and when he was, it wasn’t for any significant time frame.

Being able to lead a Rush, be an elite playmaker, and lead your team in points doesn’t make you a great “200 foot player.” It means he is an offensive guy first and puts his responsibilities in his own zone second to scoring.

Well thing is it's much rarer to be able to carry a team in the way Karlsson did than to complement an already great team in a great way. There are way fewer examples, especially when it comes to dmen, of the former.

But yes it will be fun to see, hey who knows maybe ill have to eat crow. Then again Karlsson could for all we know already be post peak especially with his injuries- However a truly special player would probably atleast partly overcome that and I believe he is one but that remains to be seen I suppose.