Drew Doughty vs Zdeno Chara

[GreatGonzo]

lol yea people dont know how to evaluate defense because we have bunch of geniuses on here who think that Karlsson is a liability. When NHL coaches play him 10 minutes of the 3rd in elimination playoff games to secure the 1 goal win. but yea trash defensively.

and anyway you did call him a net negative in his 82 point season. go ahead and deny because im not gonna bother to go find the quote. but you and i both know you did.

And that small sample size is your “proof?” It’s hardly something worth noting. Sure he as a beast that playoff run, but nothing has come of it before and nothing was there after. He had his moment of great defensive play and then went back to being inconsistent. I’m sorry if the truth hurts.

Well it begs the question, how can a guy be so good defensively when he puts up 82 points and still manages to be a negative player? I understand plus/minus being a very team oriented stat, but to put up that many points and still can’t be positive says something.

 

[Agent Zub]

EK has shown glimpses of great defensive play, but he isn’t consistent and they are far and few.

Sure, being on the team he was, I’m sure his defense took a hit because he was their offensive weapon, but that doesn’t mean he has always had great defensive awareness or that he’s simply sacrificing it. That’s his game, a very offensive oriented game, while Doughty eats up the tougher minutes, more defensive responsibilities, and still is able to produce.

You say it’s “both ways” yet say Doughty lacks the talent to be as great offensively as EK, yet EK will now be great defensively because of a better team? Maybe EK lacks that talent in his own end? Like you said, it goes both ways.

It will be interesting to see how EK adapts to the sharks. He finally has a supporting car around him to benefit from. The question is, can he raise his defensive game and be better in his own end.

EK is very inconsistent when it comes to his own end. Everyone knows this. Your only playing dumb when it comes to this. Can he be great defensively? Yes, but he isn’t and when he was, it wasn’t for any significant time frame.

Being able to lead a Rush, be an elite playmaker, and lead your team in points doesn’t make you a great “200 foot player.” It means he is an offensive guy first and puts his responsibilities in his own zone second to scoring.

Maybe he's inconsistent because he's had two severe injuries and has played on trash team with terrible partners?

Let's see what he does on SJ.

And yes I do agree that he's been inconsistent so far and I do believe that a lot of it has to do with external factors. I mean Chara looked trash defensively in the middle of his prime and went like -20. He was just on a bad team. Just like Karlsson for the majority of his career.

But he has shown an ability to be as good defensively as anyone in the league. And more so because he's the only one who can turn defence into offence so quick.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Well thing is it's much rarer to be able to carry a team in the way Karlsson did than to complement an already great team in a great way. There are way fewer examples, especially when it comes to dmen, of the former. But yes it will be fun to see, hey who knows maybe ill have to eat crow. Then again Karlsson could for all we know already be post peak especially with his injuries- then again a truly special player would probably atleast partly overcome that.

Your totally right. It is rare and it is special. All I’m saying his extraordinary offensive abilities don’t automatically come with this great defensive game that so many like to boast about, especially when their only evidence was the playoffs 2 years ago. He needs to be more responsible and consistent in his own end.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Maybe he's inconsistent because he's had two severe injuries and has played on trash team with terrible partners?

Let's see what he does on SJ.

Maybe. Maybe not. But now that he has a solid team around him, there should be no excuses.

 

[Agent Zub]

Maybe. Maybe not. But now that he has a solid team around him, there should be no excuses.

Agreed.

If he's healthy and has a good team there will be no excuses.

 

[Agent Zub]

Your totally right. It is rare and it is special. All I’m saying his extraordinary offensive abilities don’t automatically come with this great defensive game that so many like to boast about, especially when their only evidence was the playoffs 2 years ago. He needs to be more responsible and consistent in his own end.

Saying that it was only one post season isn't honest.

 

[Little Psycho]

Maybe. Maybe not. But now that he has a solid team around him, there should be no excuses.

This isn't directed towards you but Hedman surrounded by a solid team is allowed excuses.

 

[GreatGonzo]

This isn't directed towards you but Hedman surrounded by a solid team is allowed excuses.

And I definitely don’t agree with that. EK will no longer have to carry a team offensively, hoping this will help him focus more on his defense all while contributing as a playmaker. It does make a difference having a solid team around you, but as individuals you have to hold some accountability.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Saying that it was only one post season isn't honest.

But it is only one.

That’s the post season that put him on the map as a star, that’s the one where people tuned in and went....wow, he’s doing it all. That’s the one where he nearly took a team to the finals. The problem? He doesn’t do that nearly as much or anywhere close to that level consistently. He has the opportunity now.

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Maybe he's inconsistent because he's had two severe injuries and has played on trash team with terrible partners?

Let's see what he does on SJ.

And yes I do agree that he's been inconsistent so far and I do believe that a lot of it has to do with external factors. I mean Chara looked trash defensively in the middle of his prime and went like -20. He was just on a bad team. Just like Karlsson for the majority of his career.

But he has shown an ability to be as good defensively as anyone in the league. And more so because he's the only one who can turn defence into offence so quick.

Outside of the year he fit like a glove into a 1-3-1 that built off his natural skating talent to retrieve pucks before the forwards playing dump and chase... when exactly has he shown he can be as good as anyone defensively?

Ah. +/- shows Chara forgot how to play defense in 06-07. I see now.

 

[psycat]

Outside of the year he fit like a glove into a 1-3-1 that built off his natural skating talent to retrieve pucks before the forwards playing dump and chase... when exactly has he shown he can be as good as anyone defensively?

Ah. +/- shows Chara forgot how to play defense in 06-07. I see now.

Well with a good team in the best on best OG he got MVP and had zero goals against, also quite small sample size obviously but it was evident that he is atleast good defensively watching him and I believe that we all agree he has got better since.

Hard to shine defensively on a team where you are expected to pretty much carry the offence as a defenceman.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Well with a good team in the best on best OG he got MVP and had zero goals against, also quite small sample size obviously but it was evident that he is atleast good defensively watching him and I believe that we all agree he has got better since.

Hard to shine defensively on a team where you are expected to pretty much carry the offence as a defenceman.

He obviously is capable. But being capable and playing from time to time at a high level is different than consistently being at that level.

Besides, as great as the Kings are....many underestimate his value to that team. Sure he doesn’t have to carry the team offensively, but he certainly is their guy that carries the load defensively. Same with Chara in his prime.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Well, this became surprisingly civil and I love it

Well with a good team in the best on best OG he got MVP and had zero goals against, also quite small sample size obviously but it was evident that he is atleast good defensively watching him and I believe that we all agree he has got better since.

Hard to shine defensively on a team where you are expected to pretty much carry the offence as a defenceman.

That's really been my point all along through all these discussions. Obviously his ability to do so exists, but it hasn't shown up consistently over the years, probably because of your last point--he's been stretched too thin trying to do too much. I think most people would agree with that. I've long said I see him aging like Lidstrom and that might come to fruition even sooner. It's scary to think what his all around game could look like this year sitting right next to the NHL's greatest possible safety blanket in Vlasic who isn't offensively braindead himself. He will be playing within his limits and probably in slightly more controlled minutes and while I think he's likely to look less spectacular at times his overall effectiveness is going to be nuts.

And the other portion of this I've been saying all along is that my top five or so guys--Karlsson, Doughty, Hedman, Subban, Pietrangelo--are all much, much more adaptable than people give them credit for, they're simply playing what their situations call for. Subban went from being 'the guy' in MTL to excelling in a shutdown role last year for NSH. I have no doubt EK COULD do the same, just like I have no doubt Hedman would thrive in LA and that Doughty would crush it in a different way in Ottawa. Note I'm not necessarily saying better or worse, I just love every one of those guys because they are, in fact, multidimensional.

He obviously is capable. But being capable and playing from time to time at a high level is different than consistently being at that level.

Besides, as great as the Kings are....many underestimate his value to that team. Sure he doesn’t have to carry the team offensively, but he certainly is their guy that carries the load defensively. Same with Chara in his prime.

Can't overstate this point. People are banging on Doughty like 60 points is something to be ashamed of. When he's also at worst a top-5 defensive d-man and also a top transition and possession guy...and the anchor on the #1 PK in the nhl...like what more can you really ask for? More points I guess, but offense isn't just literally points, Drew gets the play moving...when he's off the ice, the Kings are bad. Literally. not that that's different for Chara Prime, or EK, or Hedman, but people sometimes like to suggest he's a product of the system or a passenger on a great team rather than a driving force. When you're playing nearly 30 min nightly and going near-ppg in multiple playoffs for a multiple time point winner, you're doing something big. I just wish more people could look past their grievances and appreciate some of these guys while they're still playing in their primes.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Well, this became surprisingly civil and I love it



That's really been my point all along through all these discussions. Obviously his ability to do so exists, but it hasn't shown up consistently over the years, probably because of your last point--he's been stretched too thin trying to do too much. I think most people would agree with that. I've long said I see him aging like Lidstrom and that might come to fruition even sooner. It's scary to think what his all around game could look like this year sitting right next to the NHL's greatest possible safety blanket in Vlasic who isn't offensively braindead himself. He will be playing within his limits and probably in slightly more controlled minutes and while I think he's likely to look less spectacular at times his overall effectiveness is going to be nuts.

And the other portion of this I've been saying all along is that my top five or so guys--Karlsson, Doughty, Hedman, Subban, Pietrangelo--are all much, much more adaptable than people give them credit for, they're simply playing what their situations call for. Subban went from being 'the guy' in MTL to excelling in a shutdown role last year for NSH. I have no doubt EK COULD do the same, just like I have no doubt Hedman would thrive in LA and that Doughty would crush it in a different way in Ottawa. Note I'm not necessarily saying better or worse, I just love every one of those guys because they are, in fact, multidimensional.



Can't overstate this point. People are banging on Doughty like 60 points is something to be ashamed of. When he's also at worst a top-5 defensive d-man and also a top transition and possession guy...and the anchor on the #1 PK in the nhl...like what more can you really ask for? More points I guess, but offense isn't just literally points, Drew gets the play moving...when he's off the ice, the Kings are bad. Literally. not that that's different for Chara Prime, or EK, or Hedman, but people sometimes like to suggest he's a product of the system or a passenger on a great team rather than a driving force. When you're playing nearly 30 min nightly and going near-ppg in multiple playoffs for a multiple time point winner, you're doing something big. I just wish more people could look past their grievances and appreciate some of these guys while they're still playing in their primes.

Exactly. It’s truly frustrating having so many put offense first as a must have in terms of being an elite defenseman. Is it part of the criteria? Sure, but you have two players who are almost polar opposites a in terms of style, the difference is one is much more well rounded, while the other....although has shown considerable promise, has a one way mentality.

EK is one of the most gifted offensive defensemen ever. I truly believe that. But his weaknesses have always been a lack of understanding and effort in his own end, and I’m sure his style is a cause of a lot of that. We have seen him play some great hockey in his own end, but now The question is, can he now put aside his “offense first” or let himself actually play at the position that benefits the team rather than feeling like he has to do it all. Where as Doughty is a work horse, a top defensive defenseman in the league, all while still having a great offensive touch. Like you stated, he leads the charge more or less on both ends, he plays those heavy minutes, he plays in all situations, and he makes the Kings probably the most dangerous team defensively.

I feel People don’t like Doughty because he simply isn’t as flashy as EK. He isn’t putting up PPG seasons on a bad team, he isn’t leading the league in assists, but he’s truly remarkable and is elite in basically every aspect of his position....and yes, even offensively. We can’t hold that bar to EKs standards and just say, he isn’t scoring as much as EK, thus making him an inferior player compared to him....which is ridiculous.