Drew Doughty vs Zdeno Chara

[Raccoon Jesus]

Looking at their toi qot and the fact that Hedman lugged around Dotchin for most of the year I think that number is skewed.

Would love to introduce you to Derek Forbort sometime.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Apples and oranges. One is a shut down specialists. The other, an elite two way defenseman.

Chara is most likely the best shut down defenseman of this generation with a longer prime. I mean for a ten year period, he was a Norris Finalists six times, finished top five eight times, a second team AS four times, a First team AS three times, with a Norris and Cup. He’s also probably one of the most intimidating players of all time, with his size and physicality. He was just plain scary.

But I think Doughty will go down as the better player simply based on his already impressive resume at a young age
And in his prime. He has the better offensive abilities and playoffs. He’s got the defensive game with the finesse.

Great post.

Chara is chronically underrated lately and I wonder if it's just because he's tailing down now. I'm sure his career will be looked at fondly like Pronger, and he played in a market that's fortunate enough to see--and revere--legendary defensemen. Very unique player that played at an insanely high level, he's certainly Hall bound.

Drew has yet to write his full legend so it's maybe a bit early for the comparison. Next few years are key for him and a few other d-men in their prime, but if last year was any indication, he's writing a similar story. I do think he's 'better' from a raw talent standpoint as he's more dynamic, but in the end, Chara's impact may be understated in the way ME Vlasic's is.

I'm glad both guys are getting their due in this thread because as I said Chara often gets glossed over when talking about the great d-men of this era. Though of course the usual Doughty haters are voting right down the party line in the most predictable manner

 

[ManofSteel55]

Doughty because Chara is overrated

I would say the opposite - Doughty will be considered better even if he isn't/wasn't/whatever, because Chara is underrated and a lot of people like to hate on him.

 

[Trap Jesus]

I feel like Doughty now is better/more accomplished than Chara was in his prime, but Chara's claim to fame now is remaining an effective top-pairing guy after his drop-off and into his 40s. I think Doughty should age well as well but premature to just assume that.

 

[Little Psycho]

He would have won this year if he hadn't won before so be careful what you wish for.

Yeah but Hedman was due. People don't like to bring that up funny enough.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Would love to introduce you to Derek Forbort sometime.

Did forbort get unconditionally waived? Didn’t think so

 

[wintersej]

I feel like Doughty now is better/more accomplished than Chara was in his prime, but Chara's claim to fame now is remaining an effective top-pairing guy after his drop-off and into his 40s. I think Doughty should age well as well but premature to just assume that.

Doughty was good far earlier so that takes a bite out of Chara’s longetivity arguments

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Did forbort get unconditionally waived? Didn’t think so

Here, let me use your tools to help you

Victor Hedman and Jake Dotchin together: 516 minutes, 52.34 CF%
Hedman without Jake: 908 minutes, 52.29%
Jake without Hedman: 219 minutes, 50.77

Drew Doughty and Derek Forbort together: 845 minutes, 51.62 CF%
Doughty without Forbort: 747 minutes, 53.90 CF%
Forbort without Doughty: 504 minutes, 48.26 CF%

Which one do you think is the greater handicap?

Doughty has that effect on every d-man on the Kings roster no matter what his usage.

I know he's unpopular around here especially with the Swedes and the TBL/OTT fans, but at least try to understand in good faith.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Doughty was good far earlier so that takes a bite out of Chara’s longetivity arguments

It might, but we don't yet know what Drew's longevity will be either.

I do think he'll age well because his greatest tool is his brain. It's not like he's the greatest skater.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Here, let me use your tools to help you

Victor Hedman and Jake Dotchin together: 516 minutes, 52.34 CF%
Hedman without Jake: 908 minutes, 52.29%
Jake without Hedman: 219 minutes, 50.77

Drew Doughty and Derek Forbort together: 845 minutes, 51.62 CF%
Doughty without Forbort: 747 minutes, 53.90 CF%
Forbort without Doughty: 504 minutes, 48.26 CF%

Which one do you think is the greater handicap?

Doughty has that effect on every d-man on the Kings roster no matter what his usage.

I know he's unpopular around here especially with the Swedes and the TBL/OTT fans, but at least try to understand in good faith.

A couple things here.

1. Not a very large sample of Dotchin without Hedman so these results will be a bit off. Dotchin was healthy scratched a lot later on.
2. Forbort’s HDCF% drops by about 3% away from Doughty. Dotchin’s drops by 6% away from Hedman.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

This is even ignoring Hedman’s large offensive gap.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Oh and also Hedman’s time with Dotchin was when the team was firing on all cylinders and his time without was when we were slumping due to lack of effort (noticeably from Kucherov)

 

[PatriceBergeronFan]

Here, let me use your tools to help you

Victor Hedman and Jake Dotchin together: 516 minutes, 52.34 CF%
Hedman without Jake: 908 minutes, 52.29%
Jake without Hedman: 219 minutes, 50.77

Drew Doughty and Derek Forbort together: 845 minutes, 51.62 CF%
Doughty without Forbort: 747 minutes, 53.90 CF%
Forbort without Doughty: 504 minutes, 48.26 CF%

Which one do you think is the greater handicap?

Doughty has that effect on every d-man on the Kings roster no matter what his usage.

I know he's unpopular around here especially with the Swedes and the TBL/OTT fans, but at least try to understand in good faith.

Doughty is who I hope McAvoy turns into.

I take him over any other defenseman currently, and rather easily.

Hedman is close but...

 

[Little Psycho]

Here, let me use your tools to help you

Victor Hedman and Jake Dotchin together: 516 minutes, 52.34 CF%
Hedman without Jake: 908 minutes, 52.29%
Jake without Hedman: 219 minutes, 50.77

Drew Doughty and Derek Forbort together: 845 minutes, 51.62 CF%
Doughty without Forbort: 747 minutes, 53.90 CF%
Forbort without Doughty: 504 minutes, 48.26 CF%

Which one do you think is the greater handicap?

Doughty has that effect on every d-man on the Kings roster no matter what his usage.

I know he's unpopular around here especially with the Swedes and the TBL/OTT fans, but at least try to understand in good faith.

Doughty was on babysitting duty last season, he played with every dman that was struggling. He was the only consistent dman last season and he had cover up for the others. People like to talk crap about him when they have no clue about the scenarios he was placed in.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

A couple things here.

1. Not a very large sample of Dotchin without Hedman so these results will be a bit off. Dotchin was healthy scratched a lot later on.
2. Forbort’s HDCF% drops by about 3% away from Doughty. Dotchin’s drops by 6% away from Hedman.

We could talk all day about who has crappier partners. Seems to be something that afflicts the superstar defensemen more often than not.

What's funny about that though is Hedman's drops without Dotchin too, while Doughty's improves.

Together, Hedman and Dotchin hit 56.14 HDCF%. Apart, Hedman drops to 54.43, Dotchin to 50.72. And that's with increased ozone starts, while Dotchin gets absolutely tanked with 40%.

Togther, Forbort and Doughty hit 46.98 HDCF%. Apart, Doughty rises to 48.83% (with similar increase in zone starts), while Forbort drops to 45.71% and bad zone starts (drops to 43%). For perspective, that would be amongst the top-10 worst HDCF% in the league for d-men who played 1000 min or more. So there's probably some diminishing returns there because at this level there's literally not much lower you can go.

No wonder you focused on a decrease in partner HDCF%...not convenient to your argument. There's gotta be some diminishing returns there as well, not sure how low you can tank your HDCF

This is even ignoring Hedman’s large offensive gap.

Drew had 60 points, Hedman had 63. Not sure what qualifies as 'large' in your book but that's a simple fact check. Also note Doughty did 60 on a team that scored 239 goals while Hedman did 63 on far and away the best offense in the league scoring 296 goals.


All of this is just to illustrate how off your conceptions of Drew Doughty are, and helps me show how good he really is, so thank you for that.

 

[VoluntaryDom]

We could talk all day about who has crappier partners. Seems to be something that afflicts the superstar defensemen more often than not.

What's funny about that though is Hedman's drops without Dotchin too, while Doughty's improves.

Together, Hedman and Dotchin hit 56.14 HDCF%. Apart, Hedman drops to 54.43, Dotchin to 50.72. And that's with increased ozone starts, while Dotchin gets absolutely tanked with 40%.

Togther, Forbort and Doughty hit 46.98 HDCF%. Apart, Doughty rises to 48.83% (with similar increase in zone starts), while Forbort drops to 45.71% and bad zone starts (drops to 43%). For perspective, that would be amongst the top-10 worst HDCF% in the league for d-men who played 1000 min or more. So there's probably some diminishing returns there because at this level there's literally not much lower you can go.

No wonder you focused on a decrease in partner HDCF%...not convenient to your argument. There's gotta be some diminishing returns there as well, not sure how low you can tank your HDCF




Drew had 60 points, Hedman had 63. Not sure what qualifies as 'large' in your book but that's a simple fact check. Also note Doughty did 60 on a team that scored 239 goals while Hedman did 63 on far and away the best offense in the league scoring 296 goals.


All of this is just to illustrate how off your conceptions of Drew Doughty are, and helps me show how good he really is, so thank you for that.

Hedman’s drops because of a drastic difference in how good the team around him was and that a big portion of that time was with Girardi. At 5v5 Hedman blew Doughty out of the water scoring wise.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Hedman’s drops because of a drastic difference in how good the team around him was and that a big portion of that time was with Girardi. At 5v5 Hedman blew Doughty out of the water scoring wise.

....

At 5v5, Hedman had 30pts, Doughty had 27. Shrug emoji. Again, note the difference in team 5v5 scoring.

At even strength period, Hedman had 35, Doughty had 39, tied with Brent Burns for 4th amongst d-men.

Are we really going to continue to do this thing where we pretend Doughty isn't good offensively? Please stop with the "large offensive gap," "blows out of the water" offensively statements, they're obviously trash.

 

[The Abusement Park]

....

At 5v5, Hedman had 30pts, Doughty had 27. Shrug emoji. Again, note the difference in team 5v5 scoring.

At even strength period, Hedman had 35, Doughty had 39, tied with Brent Burns for 4th amongst d-men.

Are we really going to continue to do this thing where we pretend Doughty isn't good offensively? Please stop with the "large offensive gap," "blows out of the water" offensively statements, they're obviously trash.

Lol. Awkward.

 

[redcard]

Hedman’s drops because of a drastic difference in how good the team around him was

This amuses me. Hedman's stats were skewed negatively because his team was so good, Karlssons stats were skewed negatively because his team was so bad, blah, blah, blah, Doughty sucks.

 

[ESH]

What a coincidence because EKs 2012 should have been Doughtys.

There is more to defense than scoring points. Doughty shows this while still scoring a good amount.

Doughty wasn’t even a finalist for the Norris in 2012.

That would have been absolutely silly if he won it this year. Granted no dman stood out last year but Hedman had comparable possession to Doughty and better offense.

Hedman put up slightly better scoring numbers playing on the highest scoring team in the league. Voting could have easily gone either way. It’s absolutely silly to suggest that Doughty didn’t have basically as good a season as Hedman.

 

[wintersej]

Using points to judge a defensemans offensive contributions is dubious anyway. Good quick outlets matter just as much as how active they are in the o-zone for driving team offense.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Doughty wasn’t even a finalist for the Norris in 2012.

Your right I meant 2015, where Doughty had more first place votes.

 

[Little Psycho]

Damn... when you force @Raccoon Jesus to pull out the receipts.

 

[ESH]

Your right I meant 2015, where Doughty had more first place votes.

That’s fair. That’s one of those years where there wasn’t a clear #1 and a few guys had good arguments.

 

[Little Psycho]

This amuses me. Hedman's stats were skewed negatively because his team was so good, Karlssons stats were skewed negatively because his team was so bad, blah, blah, blah, Doughty sucks.

My mind is blown because this ALWAYS happens!