Dreger: NHL Investigating Arizona Over Testing Draft Eligible CHL Players

[Jason MacIsaac]

Under any circumstances? You just admitted you don’t even know the circumstances. Can you help me understand your perspective a little better?

All my opinions in this thread are on the basis that the findings are true. If they tested prospects physically in any way, the NHL will have pressure from all the owners to throw the book at them.

 

[rt]

All my opinions in this thread are on the basis that the findings are true. If they tested prospects physically in any way, the NHL will have pressure from all the owners to throw the book at them.

“in any way” and “throw the book at them” are incongruous. Do you often notice a stranger pulled over by the police on the side of a highway and immediately scream “Fry the f***er! I hope he rots in hell!” because if you do, you’d be an odd fellow, indeed.

 

[Ciao]

Well I come from a military background so I play the guilty until proven inocent game. I'm sure it will come out soon enough. To gain as much headway as it has to date, i assume its substantial enough. I've seen a rumor it was balance and flexibility testing.

You weren't a Military Policeman, we're you?

When I was a young duty counsel the was a court services officer, a retired meathead, who would loudly mutter "March the guilty buggers in, march the guilty buggers out!" as he escorted the prisoners in and out of bail court. When confronted, he would like loudly proclaim "Guilty until proven OTHERWISE. That's how we does it in the MILITARY!"

I haven't heard a similar reference to military justice since.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

“in any way” and “throw the book at them” are incongruous. Do you often notice a stranger pulled over by the police on the side of a highway and immediately scream “Fry the f***er! I hope he rots in hell!” because if you do, you’d be an odd fellow, indeed.

Why wouldnt I hope for Arizona to be penalized if what is being said is true? Especially being a Devils fan who were once penalized for the Kovalchuk signing when Vancouver and Chicago got off free. Like I said, these message boards are all speculation and I'm commenting under the premise that Arizona conducted testing outside what's directed in the CBA.

 

[rt]

Why wouldnt I hope for Arizona to be penalized if what is being said is true? Especially being a Devils fan who were once penalized for the Kovalchuk signing when Vancouver and Chicago got off free. Like I said, these message boards are all speculation and I'm commenting under the premise that Arizona conducted testing outside what's directed in the CBA.

“What is being said”? That’s what I’m wondering. Nothing has come out.

 

[Mr Positive]

What advantage do they have? Can you tell me what happened?

basically, you can't just draft based off of point totals. That only gives a small portion of the picture. So it is a very big advantage if you have insight into players beyond the numbers. It is an even bigger advantage this year considering we likely won't have a combine. Even bigger, teams won't have as much scouting data due to the lesser leagues getting cut short too. This would have been a time where scouting was ramping up.

 

[rt]

basically, you can't just draft based off of point totals. That only gives a small portion of the picture. So it is a very big advantage if you have insight into players beyond the numbers. It is an even bigger advantage this year considering we likely won't have a combine. Even bigger, teams won't have as much scouting data due to the lesser leagues getting cut short too. This would have been a time where scouting was ramping up.

Tell me the limit of what teams are allowed to do. Now tell me what the Coyotes did. What’s the delta?

 

[rt]

How’s this for a league imposed punishment; The Coyotes are compelled to terminate with cause General Manager John Chayka, Assistant General Manager Steve Sullivan, Director of Scouting Lindsay Hofford, Head Coach Rick Tocchet, Assistant Coach John MacLean and Assistant Coach Phil Housley. Strip OEL of his captaincy, too.

As for ownership? Well they must be punished too. How about the price to fans of in-arena alcohol products are reduced by 50% for all home games for one season. Seems fair.

 

[Mr Positive]

Tell me the limit of what teams are allowed to do. Now tell me what the Coyotes did. What’s the delta?

You are not allowed to do fitness testing, or psychological evaluations before the draft combine. That is what the Coyotes are accused of doing.

So sure, perhaps the delta here is that you might be able to get a little bit of informal data, and perhaps there is a spirit of the rule interpretation here. But the standard is that you can't do the draft combine early.

And if your angle is what Arizona is definitely 100% guilty of... I mean sure. If it comes out that they weren't crossing the line then they shouldn't be punished, obviously

 

[hamzarocks]

How’s this for a league imposed punishment; The Coyotes are compelled to terminate with cause General Manager John Chayka, Assistant General Manager Steve Sullivan, Director of Scouting Lindsay Hofford, Head Coach Rick Tocchet, Assistant Coach John MacLean and Assistant Coach Phil Housley. Strip OEL of his captaincy, too.

As for ownership? Well they must be punished too. How about the price to fans of in-arena alcohol products are reduced by 50% for all home games for one season. Seems fair.

While your post is obviously sarcastic
I think the solution should be somewhere in what you said. I think the yotes should not be fined picks as this is a first time occurence and if serious enough they should be dealing with the personnel who was found guilty of conducting the cheating.

The league should ban/force fire the yotes GM, and head scouts who were involved/knowledgeable. These individuals should receive a 1 year ban from working in the NHL. The yotes should be fined a certain amount (not sure if there are any guidelines for what a fine should he in this case but something around 1-2 million dollars sounds reasonable). Taking picks away is unfair and would only be justifiable if the yotes were somehow bribing the prospects they had privates sessions with to pull Lindros type situations and refuse to be drafted by teams other than the yotes and or tank draft interviews.

Now this is only my opinion and should only happen if there is clear evidence and not just belief. Need to provide the yotes management team with innocent until proven guilty and the NHL/other owners? should be responsible for finding proof of guilt.

 

[rt]

My post wasn’t sarcastic. I am a Coyotes fan. I want to see all of those men removed from the team. I also want half off drinks.

 

[rt]

You are not allowed to do fitness testing, or psychological evaluations before the draft combine.

Link?

That is what the Coyotes are accused of doing

Link?

Am not trying to get you to google for me. I’ve only seen that teams aren’t allowed to conduct “physical testing” ahead of the combine, and that the Coyotes are being investigated for conducting “physical testing” ahead of the combine.

Surely you can see the potential for an enormous spectrum of gray area here.

As far as I know there have been absolutely no specific details of either rules or the allegations. So far I’ve only seen that the Coyotes possibly maybe conducted something that could be construed as “physical testing” and that apparently there are some limits set on “physical testing” but nobody seems to know what those are.

And yet here we are, with outraged people demanding justice. It doesn’t make sense. I guess we are all just bored and thirsty for some drama.

 

[rt]

For the record, I’m not homering. I’m interested because I’m a Coyotes fan. But I’m not nervous about losing picks because I’m a Coyotes fan.

I assume if we have to forfeit a 1st rounder, our owner will have no choice but to fire GM. I assume that any GM or any small child, for that matter, would find it immediately obvious that they need to fire the coaching staff without delay.

If I could trade a 1st round pick for a new front-office and a new coaching staff, I would do it in a second. No hesitation. So before anyone wastes their time accusing me of being overly defensive because I’m afraid of the losing the picks, please know that I really don’t care about that.

I’m posting here because I’m confused about the outrage given the absolute lack of information. It feels like people are writing the story to match the outrage they’re eager to have, regardless of the facts.

 

[Voight]

What advantage do they have? Can you tell me what happened?

They have information on players that other teams don't. I.E. since they illegally did tests with players before the combine, they now don't have to waste time testing those same players. So say a team only has time to 50 players each combine, well the Coyotes can now do 50 at the combine plus the 50 they already did. (not saying they tested 50 players, but just using that as an example).

Can you post the rule? The black and white one? And then show where they broke it?

You cannot test players before the combine. Its a standard rule, otherwise every team - especially the big market ones - would be doing it with their infinite resources.

The NHL literally took over Arizona. They are massively committed to the team. They will do whatever they can to make it succeed. If the team wins a top 3 pick. They will need to let them let it slide.

Bettman will penalize them by making them forfeit one first round pick within the next 3 years, along with having them win the lottery this year so they don't have to give NJ their pick.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

“What is being said”? That’s what I’m wondering. Nothing has come out.

While I understand you are annoyed with the way your favorite team's organization is being run, playing lawyer on HFBOARDS isn't going to make it better. Do I have proof that Arizona cheated? Of course not, we speak in hypotheticals all the time. Do most fans believe Arizona should be heavily punished if they did in fact test players throughout the season, I would hope so. Especially in a year without a combine.

 

[rt]

The frustrating thing is not one of you can even tell me what they’re accused of other than “physical testing”. Nobody can even tell me what the rules are beyond the words “physical testing”. This is wild speculation as there are zero details available. I know we are eager for news but this story just hasn’t broken yet. There’s nothing to it yet.

I think I know what a lot of people are picturing in their heads. They’re thinking of multiple dozens of CHL kids, decked out in gym clothes, lifting weights, running laps, riding the bike, doing pull ups, getting measured, and the full nine.

I think that’s extremely unlikely, and a naive assumption, that lacks in critical thinking. They’re obviously not going to do something so blatantly against the rules. This is almost assuredly a very nuanced violation. This is a scandal about pushing the upper limit of a thing and potentially having crossed the line to a degree.

It might turn out that they ran a full combine and they face forfeiting draft picks, cash, capspace and suspensions/firings of multiple high level team employees, and a multi year ban from future NHL combines.

It might turn out that they interpreted one vaguely worded rule in a way that displeases the league and they face having to make an apology and the league rewords the rule.

Every body here seems to see that a traffic cop has pulled over the Coyotes and immediately assumed vehicular manslaughter must be the reason for it. No chance it was expired tags. Obviously they’re looking at 7-10 years in prison. No chance it’s a warning or a fixit ticket.

I’m not “playing lawyer”. I’m just not allowing myself to get caught up in wild fantasies based on crowd sensationalism concerning the vaguest of tweets with almost no meaningful details.

 

[rt]

While I understand you are annoyed with the way your favorite team's organization is being run, playing lawyer on HFBOARDS isn't going to make it better. Do I have proof that Arizona cheated? Of course not, we speak in hypotheticals all the time. Do most fans believe Arizona should be heavily punished if they did in fact test players throughout the season, I would hope so. Especially in a year without a combine.

Let me reiterate. I don’t want to make it better. I hope Chayka did something so stupid that Meruelo has to fire him. That’s the outcome I’m hoping for.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

Let me reiterate. I don’t want to make it better. I hope Chayka did something so stupid that Meruelo has to fire him. That’s the outcome I’m hoping for.

I have read, your posts. I know what you hope happens.

 

[rt]

My point is we don’t have a story. We have tweets from journalists saying that there might be a story. But they don’t have a story yet.

They want it to be a scandal. They kind of need it to be a scandal right now. I think most of us probably want it to be a scandal. All that hoping doesn’t make it any more likely that it actually is a scandal.

We heard about this weeks or months ago. No new information. No statements. No quotes from sources, anonymous or otherwise. Nobody even able to dig up the actual language do the rules on the subject. It’s stagnated. That doesn’t feel like a blockbuster story brewing.

This is like the wall-to-wall coverage of the Barabanov signing. It was a bombshell because nothing is going on. If it weren’t for the pandemic, it would have barely been a mouse fart.

 

[Voight]

Clearly there is a story, the NHL obviously won't release evidence until their investigation is done.

We knew the Astros cheated, but had to wait until the MLBs investigation was done to see the evidence.

 

[TheDoldrums]

The frustrating thing is not one of you can even tell me what they’re accused of other than “physical testing”. Nobody can even tell me what the rules are beyond the words “physical testing”. This is wild speculation as there are zero details available. I know we are eager for news but this story just hasn’t broken yet. There’s nothing to it yet.

I think I know what a lot of people are picturing in their heads. They’re thinking of multiple dozens of CHL kids, decked out in gym clothes, lifting weights, running laps, riding the bike, doing pull ups, getting measured, and the full nine.

I think that’s extremely unlikely, and a naive assumption, that lacks in critical thinking. They’re obviously not going to do something so blatantly against the rules. This is almost assuredly a very nuanced violation. This is a scandal about pushing the upper limit of a thing and potentially having crossed the line to a degree.

It might turn out that they ran a full combine and they face forfeiting draft picks, cash, capspace and suspensions/firings of multiple high level team employees, and a multi year ban from future NHL combines.

It might turn out that they interpreted one vaguely worded rule in a way that displeases the league and they face having to make an apology and the league rewords the rule.

Every body here seems to see that a traffic cop has pulled over the Coyotes and immediately assumed vehicular manslaughter must be the reason for it. No chance it was expired tags. Obviously they’re looking at 7-10 years in prison. No chance it’s a warning or a fixit ticket.

I’m not “playing lawyer”. I’m just not allowing myself to get caught up in wild fantasies based on crowd sensationalism concerning the vaguest of tweets with almost no meaningful details.

How is that at all obvious? You freely admit we don't really know what happened, but then seem pretty sure it's a minor transgression.

To put it a different way, why would you at all risk breaking the rules unless you felt you were getting a clear and valuable advantage?

 

[rt]

How is that at all obvious? You freely admit we don't really know what happened, but then seem pretty sure it's a minor transgression.

To put it a different way, why would you at all risk breaking the rules unless you felt you were getting a clear and valuable advantage?

It seems too easy to get caught if it's as egregious as some seem to be imagining.

I wish the hockey media, who obviously doesn't have much to do, would at least provide some background and context, even it it's not related to this specific incident. I think there is a story, here, even if it doesn't deal directly with an open investigation. I don't think they'll get people to talk much about this specific allegation, but I think most of us are curious about this issue in a general way, right? Some questions I would love a journalist to answer for me:

1. Was this a bunch of prospects and once, or one at a time?
2. Do other teams hold these types of events or meetings with prospects?
3. If so, what to they most typically entail?
4. How common is this practice?
5. What are the specific rules about these meetings or events?
6. How do teams protect themselves against violations?
7. Are prospects and agents aware of these lines that shouldn't be crossed?
8. Have there ever been any other complaints investigated by the NHL? How often? What were the outcomes?

Possible sources:

Agents: Pat Brisson, JP Barry, Kurt Overhardt, Allan Walsh, Darren Ferris, and Claude Lemieux
Current GMs: B.Teliving, D.Waddell, S. Bowmen, D.Wilson, J. Botterill, D. Poile
Former GMs: R. Shero, P. Fenton, D.Lombardi, P.Chiarelli, R. Hextall, M. Gillis
Recent CHL Picks: N.Merkley, Z.Senyshyn, S.Steel, B.Howden, M.Frost, PO Joseph

^ names are just examples, illustrating that there are a ton of people you could ask, and some might have some personal or professional reasons for either answering or not answering, and may do so either on or off the record.

 

[rt]

Clearly there is a story, the NHL obviously won't release evidence until their investigation is done.

We knew the Astros cheated, but had to wait until the MLBs investigation was done to see the evidence.

Journalism isn't waiting for the official press release. These guys have cultivated relationships and sources that they can use.

 

[Neutral Hockey Fan]

Bettman won’t allow Arizona to lose a first round pick. The nhl has gone way above any possible measure in order to keep the coyotes afloat (for some reason).

Taking away a first rounder from a team that isn’t very good currently, and isn’t tracking to become an elite team any time in the foreseeable future is a kiss of death to a team already hemorrhaging money and playing in front of a measly 10,000 fans every home game.

The will be forced to apologize, and that’s it. It’s just a sad sack organization all around, really. It’s unfortunate

 

[rent free]

So...potentially $10-20M in fines. The volume of the crime almost necessitates the maximum individual fines, at-that.

Do the Coyotes have a spare $20,000,000 to pay those fines?

they'll get the league to bail them out, yet again