Dreger: NHL Investigating Arizona Over Testing Draft Eligible CHL Players

57special

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My tendency is to have Chayka fined and suspended, and the owner fined/suspended. Maybe have their draft pick place taken from them, and have them pick last in the 1st and 2nd round. That would be penal, but not devastating to the Coyotes. It would suck for the fans, the coach, and the team.

Maybe the best thing is to fire the idiot who's idea it was . I'm assuming Chayka. Would be kind of a win win. League can show they are serious about those transgressing rules, Coyotes get rid of a "I'm the smartest guy in the room" GM, who isn't. Maybe he and Fenton can go run a KHL franchise together with Dubas.
 

Voight

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My tendency is to have Chayka fined and suspended, and the owner fined/suspended. Maybe have their draft pick place taken from them, and have them pick last in the 1st and 2nd round. That would be penal, but not devastating to the Coyotes. It would suck for the fans, the coach, and the team.

Maybe the best thing is to fire the idiot who's idea it was . I'm assuming Chayka. Would be kind of a win win. League can show they are serious about those transgressing rules, Coyotes get rid of a "I'm the smartest guy in the room" GM, who isn't. Maybe he and Fenton can go run a KHL franchise together with Dubas.

Bettman finally found an owner for the Coyotes who seems interested.... he won't get fined or suspended.
 

rent free

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My tendency is to have Chayka fined and suspended, and the owner fined/suspended. Maybe have their draft pick place taken from them, and have them pick last in the 1st and 2nd round. That would be penal, but not devastating to the Coyotes. It would suck for the fans, the coach, and the team.

Maybe the best thing is to fire the idiot who's idea it was . I'm assuming Chayka. Would be kind of a win win. League can show they are serious about those transgressing rules, Coyotes get rid of a "I'm the smartest guy in the room" GM, who isn't. Maybe he and Fenton can go run a KHL franchise together with Dubas.
why dubas?
 

newfy

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The frustrating thing is not one of you can even tell me what they’re accused of other than “physical testing”. Nobody can even tell me what the rules are beyond the words “physical testing”. This is wild speculation as there are zero details available. I know we are eager for news but this story just hasn’t broken yet. There’s nothing to it yet.

It might turn out that they interpreted one vaguely worded rule in a way that displeases the league and they face having to make an apology and the league rewords the rule.

No one needs to tell you what theyre accused of other than physical testing because thats whats against the rules. Theres an article posted earlier in this thread that talks about it possibly being 250 grand per incident. Dreger has come out and said theres believed to have been at least 20 incidents of testing that was against the rules by the Coyotes. Thats possibly 5 million in fines right there alone without talking about picks or anything. Youre a Yotes fan and want to play semantics with some stuff being said in here thats fine, but everyone and their dog realises theres a story worth being discussed right now. Especially now that no other team got a chance to test at the combine.

I also dont think theres a way to interpret one vaguely worded rule. It says straight up no physical testing before the combine. If they performed physical testing of any kind its a violation it seems. So not much of a grey area there.
 
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rt

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No one needs to tell you what theyre accused of other than physical testing because thats whats against the rules. Theres an article posted earlier in this thread that talks about it possibly being 250 grand per incident. Dreger has come out and said theres believed to have been at least 20 incidents of testing that was against the rules by the Coyotes. Thats possibly 5 million in fines right there alone without talking about picks or anything. Youre a Yotes fan and want to play semantics with some stuff being said in here thats fine, but everyone and their dog realises theres a story worth being discussed right now. Especially now that no other team got a chance to test at the combine.

I also dont think theres a way to interpret one vaguely worded rule. It says straight up no physical testing before the combine. If they performed physical testing of any kind its a violation it seems. So not much of a grey area there.
There's a tremendous amount of grey area in "physical testing". I can tell by your response what you are envisioning. But I doubt that's what happened. It's too flagrant.
 

Bankers Box

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There is no way the NHL will fine the Yotes anything substantial. They will probably take a draft pick or two away but fines are not an option.
 

mpir3

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There is no way the NHL will fine the Yotes anything substantial. They will probably take a draft pick or two away but fines are not an option.

No way they lay any heavy fines on a struggling franchise, just makes no financial sense.

Sounds like you know the financial situation of the new owner pretty well!
 

newfy

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There's a tremendous amount of grey area in "physical testing". I can tell by your response what you are envisioning. But I doubt that's what happened. It's too flagrant.

There really isnt. Did they perform physical testing or not? Its a yes or no question. The extent of the testing might impact the extent of the fines or penalties but its a yes or no question. Essentially, if they performed anything that is an "event" at the combine or something similar to one of those events then they should get in shit. There isnt any grey area to that at all
 

rt

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There really isnt. Did they perform physical testing or not? Its a yes or no question. The extent of the testing might impact the extent of the fines or penalties but its a yes or no question. Essentially, if they performed anything that is an "event" at the combine or something similar to one of those events then they should get in shit. There isnt any grey area to that at all
It should be really easy for you to define physical testing then, right?
 

newfy

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It should be really easy for you to define physical testing then, right?

From the NHLs standpoint I would say its probably something along the lines of... Any test that is physical in nature that would normally be tested at the combine or any physical test designed to give a competitive advantage come draft time.

That took about 10 seconds so yes it was fairly easy. That might not be their exact definition but its pretty easy to define and see no grey area there. Why dont you try giving an example of a test you think they could have done that would get lost in a grey area? Especially one that they did ~20 times
 
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rt

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From the NHLs standpoint I would say its probably something along the lines of... Any test that is physical in nature that would normally be tested at the combine or any physical test designed to give a competitive advantage come draft time.

That took about 10 seconds so yes it was fairly easy. That might not be their exact definition but its pretty easy to define and see no grey area there. Why dont you try giving an example of a test you think they could have done that would get lost in a grey area? Especially one that they did ~20 times
What constitutes a test?

I'm not being obtuse. If they had these kids doing pushups and they're sitting there with a clipboard, watching them, then they should all be fired. I'm just guessing it's nowhere near as obvious as you think it is. Chayka and co. would have to be absolute morons to do combine style tests. I would be absolutely shocked if that's what happened. And if it were, we'd already know about it.

I know it seems brain-dead simple. But that's only if you're not thinking about it. Or if you're only considering the most egregious violation.
 
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newfy

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What constitutes a test?

I'm not being obtuse. If they had these kids doing pushups and they're sitting there with a clipboard, watching them, then they should all be fired. I'm just guessing it's nowhere near as obvious as you think it is. Chayka and co. would have to be absolute morons to do combine style tests. I would be absolutely shocked if that's what happened. And if it were, we'd already know about it.

I know it seems brain-dead simple. But that's only if you're not thinking about it. Or if you're only considering the most egregious violation.

So if there is an obvious grey area, name something they could've done that would fall into a grey area. We wouldnt know anything about it until the NHL comes out wit a ruling on it and more will come out. It could just be alleged combine style tests that have to be proven before the NHL hands out punishment and thats why we dont know anything yet
 

rt

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So if there is an obvious grey area, name something they could've done that would fall into a grey area. We wouldnt know anything about it until the NHL comes out wit a ruling on it and more will come out. It could just be alleged combine style tests that have to be proven before the NHL hands out punishment and thats why we dont know anything yet
There could unlimited examples. But here's one:

The team and prospects are discussing their in-season training and rehab. How kids care for themselves during the season. Talking about what the Coyotes players do in terms of stretching, and physical therapy, and training during the season. Self-care stuff. The topic is for some reason important to the Coyotes, they think they've got great info to share with kids to help them along. The kids are interested. There is a back-and-forth coaching session that includes stretching, or light resistance training or what-have-you. Fitness nerd stuff. Kid shows how they usually do it. Team offers tips. Kid demonstrates what he's learned.

It's not "testing" because the Coyotes aren't measuring results. But it's certainly not "just" an interview or sharing some tips with a kid. It's more organized and purposeful than that, and includes some activities that seem to well-cross a very blurry line.

I think that's one example of a scenario where the team saw no problem with helping a kid out, and that because it wasn't a measurement of aptitude or ability and because they weren't recording the results or using them as an evaluation metric, it's not "testing" per se. Meanwhile, I could easily see other teams being pissed off about that. To them, these trips are supposed to be for having a conversation, taking a kid to dinner, and getting to know them. It's not supposed to end up in the gym. And they don't trust the Coyotes motives and they view it as a competitive advantage, and they want a pound of flesh for what they see as an obvious transgression.

Meantime, the verbiage is way too vague and you can't really say for sure if the team violated either the letter or the spirit of the law because the law is too ill-defined and the intent is an unknown "he-said, she-said".

Grey area. There's too much of it.

And we're literally just making things up at this point because there is ZERO info. haha. :)
 
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tarheelhockey

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So...potentially $10-20M in fines. The volume of the crime almost necessitates the maximum individual fines, at-that.

Do the Coyotes have a spare $20,000,000 to pay those fines?

There is absolutely no chance a team gets fined $20M for giving prospects a test. That's the kind of money major corporations get fined for big-deal mistakes, like Boeing installing unapproved safety equipment in the 737, or Carnival dumping waste in the ocean.

The owners aren't stupid enough to raise their own stakes to that level. The point of the NHL is to stay in business, not gang up to crush each other.
 

Whileee

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The obvious penalty is in terms of draft picks. Yotes were trying to cheat to improve their drafting, so the appropriate penalty is to dock them some draft picks for punishment and to diminish or eliminate a drafting advantage.
 

Mr Positive

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I'd hope that the consequence matches the quality of the ill gotten info they got.

It looks like the info is basically draft combine material, right? Well, I suppose that is valuable since we won't have a normal combine this year. Perhaps the best value would be that you could see a trend: a player in November vs June.
 

Mr Positive

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The obvious penalty is in terms of draft picks. Yotes were trying to cheat to improve their drafting, so the appropriate penalty is to dock them some draft picks for punishment and to diminish or eliminate a drafting advantage.
The problem I see is that perhaps the appropriate penalty is too harsh based on how bad what they did is.

Because, the real value of the info they got is not just on one pick. The NHL commonly produces diamonds in the rough in rounds 3-5. So, you almost cannot let the Coyotes make any picks at all, which is a huge punishment.

The league is not just owners competing with each other. They don't want franchises to get sunk. They are more in it together than they are apart from each other. So considering the shape of the Coyotes today, I don't think other owners will want to go for the jugular.
 

newfy

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There could unlimited examples. But here's one:

The team and prospects are discussing their in-season training and rehab. How kids care for themselves during the season. Talking about what the Coyotes players do in terms of stretching, and physical therapy, and training during the season. Self-care stuff. The topic is for some reason important to the Coyotes, they think they've got great info to share with kids to help them along. The kids are interested. There is a back-and-forth coaching session that includes stretching, or light resistance training or what-have-you. Fitness nerd stuff. Kid shows how they usually do it. Team offers tips. Kid demonstrates what he's learned.

It's not "testing" because the Coyotes aren't measuring results. But it's certainly not "just" an interview or sharing some tips with a kid. It's more organized and purposeful than that, and includes some activities that seem to well-cross a very blurry line.

I think that's one example of a scenario where the team saw no problem with helping a kid out, and that because it wasn't a measurement of aptitude or ability and because they weren't recording the results or using them as an evaluation metric, it's not "testing" per se. Meanwhile, I could easily see other teams being pissed off about that. To them, these trips are supposed to be for having a conversation, taking a kid to dinner, and getting to know them. It's not supposed to end up in the gym. And they don't trust the Coyotes motives and they view it as a competitive advantage, and they want a pound of flesh for what they see as an obvious transgression.

Meantime, the verbiage is way too vague and you can't really say for sure if the team violated either the letter or the spirit of the law because the law is too ill-defined and the intent is an unknown "he-said, she-said".

Grey area. There's too much of it.

And we're literally just making things up at this point because there is ZERO info. haha. :)

Yeah, no. The NHL isnt investigating the Coyotes and discussing huge fines over them being nice and giving some training tips to kids mid season. Theres literally no physical testing involved there and it has nothing to do with gaining an advantage similar to the combine. If that were the case the case would be open and shut an the Coyotes would not be paying a dime and would be outraged that the league is considering it.
 
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rt

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Yeah, no. The NHL isnt investigating the Coyotes and discussing huge fines over them being nice and giving some training tips to kids mid season. Theres literally no physical testing involved there and it has nothing to do with gaining an advantage similar to the combine. If that were the case the case would be open and shut an the Coyotes would not be paying a dime and would be outraged that the league is considering it.
But you made that up in your mind. And again, it depends on your definition of physical testing. Which apparently to you is actually indefinable by you're the gatekeeper??? I don't know what your point is man.
 

rt

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The obvious penalty is in terms of draft picks. Yotes were trying to cheat to improve their drafting, so the appropriate penalty is to dock them some draft picks for punishment and to diminish or eliminate a drafting advantage.
They were? That sounds awful. What did they do?
 

CujosMask

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Nov 24, 2017
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Maybe the best thing is to fire the idiot who's idea it was . I'm assuming Chayka. Would be kind of a win win. League can show they are serious about those transgressing rules, Coyotes get rid of a "I'm the smartest guy in the room" GM, who isn't. Maybe he and Fenton can go run a KHL franchise together with Dubas.

Kyle Dubas is GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs
 

greasysnapper

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Apr 6, 2018
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My tendency is to have Chayka fined and suspended, and the owner fined/suspended. Maybe have their draft pick place taken from them, and have them pick last in the 1st and 2nd round. That would be penal, but not devastating to the Coyotes. It would suck for the fans, the coach, and the team.

Maybe the best thing is to fire the idiot who's idea it was . I'm assuming Chayka. Would be kind of a win win. League can show they are serious about those transgressing rules, Coyotes get rid of a "I'm the smartest guy in the room" GM, who isn't. Maybe he and Fenton can go run a KHL franchise together with Dubas.

I like the first part but I will say, I think Fenton is a FANTASTIC evaluator of talent. His issues in GM'ing stem from other areas.
 

greasysnapper

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If they are proven guilty, and it does sound like it, I think the idea of docking picks and fining/firing individuals involved is the way to go.
 

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