TSN: Dreger and Mckenzie's Team Canada

[JLP]

See this is where you're wrong. They may play similar roles and play somewhat similar minutes on the pp and 5 on 5, but Weber plays much more on the penalty kill than Subban and its not even close really. If Subban was even on par with Weber defensively don't you think he'd be playing more than 46 seconds per game on the penalty kill? I doubt very much Weber would be second last among dmen in shorthanded time on ice if he was with the Habs instead of Nashville.

I'm not saying Subban is a scrub defensively by no means, I'm just comparing him to Shea Weber and strongly believe he's nowhere near Weber's level when it comes to the defensive aspects of the game.

Don't you think if Barry Trotz were coaching then Subban would be on the PK?

 

[Adriatic]

I never said PK is the best Canadian penalty killer...I said he doesn't kill penalties on the Habs, and that's the coaches decision, but when he has killed penalities, he's done it at an elite level

Don't believe me? Here are facts (i know people prefer perception rather than facts when it comes to Subban, but these numbers can't be ignored)

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/1/21/3884474/p-k-subban-vs-his-peers-habs-montreal-canadiens

specifically...this part

"Remember that "P.K. stands for Penalty Kill" joke? It actually might as well be true. P.K. Subban was outstanding as a penalty killer in 2011-12. This can't be emphasized enough. The Habs' penalty kill suffered virtually no drop off after the trade of Hal Gill, which increased Subban's role even more as he jumped from a heavily used 3rd option to the default top 2 option with Josh Gorges. The Canadiens' penalty kill as a whole was outstanding, but Subban was a major part of its success. Compared to other top defenders in the league Subban stood out in this discipline.

It is tough to totally separate the system from the player, particularly in special teams, but Subban compared favourably to both Gorges and Gill in this regard, and no other Canadiens blueliners were even close to the level of those three."

You specifically wrote 'he's proven to be as good as anyone in the entire league at killing penalties'. I totally disagree with that. Thanks for the link though!

 

[googlymoogly]

Okay, I can kinda understand the Habs homerism because I'm a Habs fan myself, but come on, this is team Canada. Unless you're a non-Canadian Canadiens fans, doesn't team Canada take priority over the Habs? I would love to see as many Habs on the team as possible, but Subban, like all Canadian Dmen, has some ridiculous competition, and don't be such a homer that you reject all Subban criticism. No player is perfect, and Subban definitely has a tendency to make very risky plays.

Take the game in Dallas for example. He had a great game, no doubt. But do you really think he could have scored that goal if he was facing down Ekman-Larsson and Karlson instead of the two Dallas Dmen on that play? Can anyone be sure his stretch-pass to Pacioretty would have made it through any given elite talent in the neutral-zone (and would an Olympic team be as likely to afford him that play)? I remember another play in that game where he fanned on a between-the-legs drop pass across the blueline to Boullion. Fortunately for the Habs, the Stars were unable to capitalize on that mistake, but do you want a player on your team who's willing to take that risk against potential lines like Ovechkin-Datsyuk-Malkin? I'm not saying Subban is a bad player and wouldn't fit on team Canada, but he is a high-risk, high-reward player, and when you're playing against teams that have the literal best-of-the-best filling the entirety of their roster, the risks Subban takes become a hell of a lot more of a risk, and their payoffs becomes far less given the defensive strength of the opposing teams.

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/fr-ca/news/2009-nr-007-en

Well he was pretty damn good for Canada's last junior Gold medal. He did not seem to have issues with the bigger ice I remember him joining the rush and making Canada that much more dangerous on offense compared to how poorly Canada played this year not able to score because they can't wake up to the fact you pick your best players. Subban is one of the top 5 D in the NHL that includes foreign born Dmen. How can there even be an issue of leaving him off the team.

 

[Jigger77]

I never said PK is the best Canadian penalty killer...I said he doesn't kill penalties on the Habs, and that's the coaches decision, but when he has killed penalities, he's done it at an elite level

Don't believe me? Here are facts (i know people prefer perception rather than facts when it comes to Subban, but these numbers can't be ignored)

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/1/21/3884474/p-k-subban-vs-his-peers-habs-montreal-canadiens

specifically...this part

"Remember that "P.K. stands for Penalty Kill" joke? It actually might as well be true. P.K. Subban was outstanding as a penalty killer in 2011-12. This can't be emphasized enough. The Habs' penalty kill suffered virtually no drop off after the trade of Hal Gill, which increased Subban's role even more as he jumped from a heavily used 3rd option to the default top 2 option with Josh Gorges. The Canadiens' penalty kill as a whole was outstanding, but Subban was a major part of its success. Compared to other top defenders in the league Subban stood out in this discipline.

It is tough to totally separate the system from the player, particularly in special teams, but Subban compared favourably to both Gorges and Gill in this regard, and no other Canadiens blueliners were even close to the level of those three."

If we're being honest, theres virtually nothing Subban can't do at at least, an above-average level...but because some people don't like his 'style' or the way he plays. They put these labels on him which are completely unfounded just to justify their criticism of him, when in reality, none of the numbers bear out this criticism.

Does Subban make questionable decisions with the puck at times? No doubt he does and he also needs to improve his clock-management decisions. He tends to want to do too much at the wrong time sometimes, and that can turn out bad. But other than that, it is completely fallacy that he's poor defensively, or can't kill penalties or that he wouldn't accept a lesser role on team Canada, or that he would be a distraction.

I think he was getting less icetime then though. Could be wrong haven't checked.

They have to manage his icetime and if there's other guys who can do the job on the PK then that's a good place to do it.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

Can't remember which reporter said it but he mentioned if Canada is worried about bringing people who may make defensive mistakes instead of bringing people that bring the offense, they're in trouble on the big ice. We just saw it play out in the WJC.

That was not the first time the geniuses at Hockey Canada picked the wrong team. The worse thing in hockey is to be caught slow. If you can't keep up with the other team, you can't create offence or execute defensively. You're always chasing the puck. This rule applies even more dramatically on the larger ice surfaces. The thought of lumbering, largely static players like Perry trying to skate with elite competition is unnerving. Just picture it, we're playing an elimination game against the U.S. and we have Perry, etc. wallowing around on the ice, with Kessel, Kessler, Kane, Wheeler, Pacioretty, Parise, etc. coming at us at 1,000 miles an hour. Then you'll know, the painful truth that once again, we've been caught slow. And if you can't picture it, just pull up a video of the recent WJC and watch Rychel, Gauthier and the other non-skaters trying to compete in an game environment where the predominant factor that determines success is skating. The Russians have an old expression: if you can skate, anything is possible. If you can't, nothing is. We would be well advised to adhere to this thinking.

 

[Willis Jenks]

Okay, I can kinda understand the Habs homerism because I'm a Habs fan myself, but come on, this is team Canada. Unless you're a non-Canadian Canadiens fans, doesn't team Canada take priority over the Habs? I would love to see as many Habs on the team as possible, but Subban, like all Canadian Dmen, has some ridiculous competition, and don't be such a homer that you reject all Subban criticism. No player is perfect, and Subban definitely has a tendency to make very risky plays.

Take the game in Dallas for example. He had a great game, no doubt. But do you really think he could have scored that goal if he was facing down Ekman-Larsson and Karlson instead of the two Dallas Dmen on that play? Can anyone be sure his stretch-pass to Pacioretty would have made it through any given elite talent in the neutral-zone (and would an Olympic team be as likely to afford him that play)? I remember another play in that game where he fanned on a between-the-legs drop pass across the blueline to Boullion. Fortunately for the Habs, the Stars were unable to capitalize on that mistake, but do you want a player on your team who's willing to take that risk against potential lines like Ovechkin-Datsyuk-Malkin? I'm not saying Subban is a bad player and wouldn't fit on team Canada, but he is a high-risk, high-reward player, and when you're playing against teams that have the literal best-of-the-best filling the entirety of their roster, the risks Subban takes become a hell of a lot more of a risk, and their payoffs becomes far less given the defensive strength of the opposing teams.

Although you're right in saying Pk Subban may not have been able to score that goal against better competition we must ask ourselves, which defenders in the NHL or more specifically which Canadian defenders would have been able to do what Pk did against that Dallas defence? Danny Boyle? don't think so. Vlasic? not sure.

Pk played great offensively that game because Dallas has a weak d, but I don't think any defender on Team Canada would have been able to exploit that weakness the way Pk did. When choosing which defensemen you're going to bring to the olympics you gotta go with the most skilled ones no? And don't let his offensive flair lead you to believe he's shaky defensively or too much of a risk. Pk knows when he has to be more conservative, just watch him play against Pittsburgh and Crosby more specifically, or even against the Caps and Ovechkin. He gets the best of Crosby more often then not.

Pk knows when he can play a riskier game and he knows when to play a more conservative one. He might go out guns blazing against a team like Germany but when he plays the Russians he obviously won't be playing the same way, he's not stupid after all.

Leaving him off Team Canada will be a COLOSSAL mistake.

 

[417]

Don't you think if Barry Trotz were coaching then Subban would be on the PK?

During Jacques Martin's last year (and the year prior as well), PK Subban played a ton on the PK and did it at an elite level. Something people tend to conviniently forget it seems.

But he also wasn't as effective offensively...

I don't think the Habs don't play Subban on the PK because he can't do it or because he's a liability, they just have other players they can play in those situations and if you can save him those difficult minutes on the PK and use him a ton at 5 on 5 vs top lines, on the PP, etc, then why not?

Also reduces the likelyhood of him getting injured by blocking a shot...

The Habs have a solid PK as is...no reason to change it. But I don't think that's a reflection on his abilities in that situation.

I have a lot of trouble understanding how any Habs fan who's watched this team the last few years can subscribe to the theory that Subban can't play on the PK...

 

[Jigger77]

http://www.hockeycanada.ca/fr-ca/news/2009-nr-007-en

Well he was pretty damn good for Canada's last junior Gold medal. He did not seem to have issues with the bigger ice I remember him joining the rush and making Canada that much more dangerous on offense compared to how poorly Canada played this year not able to score because they can't wake up to the fact you pick your best players. Subban is one of the top 5 D in the NHL that includes foreign born Dmen. How can there even be an issue of leaving him off the team.

Wasn't that played on a regular ice surface since it was in Ottawa?

 

[417]

You specifically wrote 'he's proven to be as good as anyone in the entire league at killing penalties'. I totally disagree with that. Thanks for the link though!

Well the link supports this...he was amongst the best penalty killers in the 2011-2012season. The Habs had a GREAT penalty killing unit and he was a big factor in that.

it was one of the few bright spots in a horrible year

 

[Willis Jenks]

You specifically wrote 'he's proven to be as good as anyone in the entire league at killing penalties'. I totally disagree with that. Thanks for the link though!

You keep denying what other people tell you but you would be much more credible if you at least said why. You give me no reason to take you seriously.

 

[417]

Wasn't that played on a regular ice surface since it was in Ottawa?

Yes it was...he played on International ice the year prior, but he had a bit role on Team Canada that year.

Either way, I don't understand how anyone can question his adaptability to any role he may be asked to play.

He's virtually done it all for the Habs since he's started here...

Hell, he made his debut in the NHL during the playoffs and pretty much played an exclusive shut down role vs Ovy in the Caps in the 1st round, then Crosby and the Pens in the 2nd round and he was masterful.

He's done it all for the Habs...any role TC has in mind for Subban, he will do it at an elite level. He's proven this time and time again

 

[Habs]

What are you smoking?? Exactly who on this team is a neanderthal that lacks finesse? Every forward on that list is highly skilled.

Rick Nash has no business on this team.

 

[417]

You keep denying what other people tell you but you would be much more credible if you at least said why. You give me no reason to take you seriously.

Because most people aren't interested in facts when it comes to Subban...nevermind the stats, the trophies, etc.

It's much more important to use subjective criticisms about his behaviour and his attitude to justify why he may not be there and why others are perceived as better choices.

It's really hilarious while also sad to follow, all at the same time

 

[Willis Jenks]

Yes it was...he played on International ice the year prior, but he had a bit role on Team Canada that year.

Either way, I don't understand how anyone can question his adaptability to any role he may be asked to play.

He's virtually done it all for the Habs since he's started here...

Hell, he made his debut in the NHL during the playoffs and pretty much played an exclusive shut down role vs Ovy in the Caps in the 1st round, then Crosby and the Pens in the 2nd round and he was masterful.

He's done it all for the Habs...any role TC has in mind for Subban, he will do it at an elite level. He's proven this time and time again

You are bang on. Pk adapts to every situation whether it means going off offensively against weaker teams or being more conservative against serious offensive threats like Crosby and Ovechkin. Pk will excel in any situation you put him in, that's what makes him so great.

 

[Adriatic]

You keep denying what other people tell you but you would be much more credible if you at least said why. You give me no reason to take you seriously.

I don't feel like getting into another Subban debate that I've had for about 3 million times on this board. You can go read my previous posts for that. I just don't think PK is the best penalty killer on team canada, that's all! You don't need to agree with me.

 

[417]

Rick Nash has no business on this team.

Yet he's pretty much a lock to be there...

 

[GSalty]

During Jacques Martin's last year (and the year prior as well), PK Subban played a ton on the PK and did it at an elite level. Something people tend to conviniently forget it seems.

But he also wasn't as effective offensively...

I don't think the Habs don't play Subban on the PK because he can't do it or because he's a liability, they just have other players they can play in those situations and if you can save him those difficult minutes on the PK and use him a ton at 5 on 5 vs top lines, on the PP, etc, then why not?

Also reduces the likelyhood of him getting injured by blocking a shot...

The Habs have a solid PK as is...no reason to change it. But I don't think that's a reflection on his abilities in that situation.

I have a lot of trouble understanding how any Habs fan who's watched this team the last few years can subscribe to the theory that Subban can't play on the PK...

I don't disagree with the notion that Subban can't play on the PK, I disagree with the notion that he'd be better on it than any of the other 6 TSN projected roster candidates - especially Weber.

 

[417]

I don't feel like getting into another Subban debate that I've had for about 3 million times on this board. You can go read my previous posts for that. I just don't think PK is the best penalty killer on team canada, that's all! You don't need to agree with me.

You've shifted the argument completely...

You laughed at me when I said that PK has proven in the past to be as good as anyone in the league when it comes to penalty killing. I've provided you with a link that supports this theory.

Now you've changed your tune to PK isn't the best penalty killer on Team Canada?

What does that have to do with anything? If Team Canada is looking for the best penalty killing dman to take to the Olympics, then I guess Josh Gorges should be a strong candidate to make the team...

 

[Willis Jenks]

I don't feel like getting into another Subban debate that I've had for about 3 million times on this board. You can go read my previous posts for that. I just don't think PK is the best penalty killer on team canada, that's all! You don't need to agree with me.

I'm not gonna dig deep into Hfboards archives for your "arguments". You give me no reason to believe you have any. In this thread alone you've claimed Pk is not great on the penalty kill 3 times and not once you've backed up your claims with anything to support them.

Btw no one here said Pk was the best penalty killer on Team Canada.

 

[googlymoogly]

I don't feel like getting into another Subban debate that I've had for about 3 million times on this board. You can go read my previous posts for that. I just don't think PK is the best penalty killer on team canada, that's all! You don't need to agree with me.

He doesn't have to be the best PKller but he would be one of the top points getter on D. The bigger ice surface actually opens up the ability of PK to get more open, one issue in the NHL is he is always getting grabbed and hooked and the refs rarely call it. It is one reason why he is always spinning away to break free from the forechecks.

 

[417]

I don't disagree with the notion that Subban can't play on the PK, I disagree with the notion that he'd be better on it than any of the other 6 TSN projected roster candidates - especially Weber.

But i've never argued it and don't see how it's relevant...

PK has shown in the past that he can kill penalties as well as anyone...so if the question of his candidacy for Team Canada comes to his ability to kill penalties, then it's not an issue at all. He can do that.

As for Shea Weber...

Years ago, I argued that Rick Nash was the NHL's most overrated player, people ridiculed me...

Today, I think Shea Weber, despite being a very good dman (I can't take that away from him), is the NHL's most overrated player. (I know, won't be a popular opinion)

 

[Adriatic]

He doesn't have to be the best PKller but he would be one of the top points getter on D. The bigger ice surface actually opens up the ability of PK to get more open, one issue in the NHL is he is always getting grabbed and hooked and the refs rarely call it. It is one reason why he is always spinning away to break free from the forechecks.

Who said he has to be the best PKller? I agree he would probably be the top point getter.

 

[Adriatic]

I'm not gonna dig deep into Hfboards archives for your "arguments". You give me no reason to believe you have any. In this thread alone you've claimed Pk is not great on the penalty kill 3 times and not once you've backed up your claims with anything to support them.

Btw no one here said Pk was the best penalty killer on Team Canada.

First of all I did not say that he wasn't great on the PK, I just said he wasn't the best on team canada and i would put most of the other defencemen ahead of him in that category. Secondly I was responding to another poster that said PK has proven in the past he was as good a penalty killer as anyone in the league, I disagreed with that.

 

[417]

First of all I did not say that he wasn't great on the PK, I just said he wasn't the best on team canada and i would put most of the other defencemen ahead of him in that category. Secondly I was responding to another poster that said PK has proven in the past he was as good a penalty killer as anyone in the league, I disagreed with that.

Well you can disagree with it...but you're 100% wrong.

Also, again, what does him not being the best on Team Canada for penalty killing have to do with anything???

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Yet he's pretty much a lock to be there...

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

The guy can't spell intense.