TSN: Dreger and Mckenzie's Team Canada

[GSalty]

Although you're right in saying Pk Subban may not have been able to score that goal against better competition we must ask ourselves, which defenders in the NHL or more specifically which Canadian defenders would have been able to do what Pk did against that Dallas defence? Danny Boyle? don't think so. Vlasic? not sure.

Pk played great offensively that game because Dallas has a weak d, but I don't think any defender on Team Canada would have been able to exploit that weakness the way Pk did. When choosing which defensemen you're going to bring to the olympics you gotta go with the most skilled ones no? And don't let his offensive flair lead you to believe he's shaky defensively or too much of a risk. Pk knows when he has to be more conservative, just watch him play against Pittsburgh and Crosby more specifically, or even against the Caps and Ovechkin. He gets the best of Crosby more often then not.

Pk knows when he can play a riskier game and he knows when to play a more conservative one. He might go out guns blazing against a team like Germany but when he plays the Russians he obviously won't be playing the same way, he's not stupid after all.

Leaving him off Team Canada will be a COLOSSAL mistake.

I'm aware of his upsides, of course. I was intentionally drawing attention to his downsides in an effort to ebb the rampant flow of Habs homerism in this thread. P.K. Subban is undoubtedly a great player, but he's not perfect. I would not at all be upset to see him on team Canada, but this isn't anywhere close to as easy a decision as so many people in this thread are making it out to be. You do need to take into consideration more than just how skilled each option is, you do need to take into consideration the risky plays Subban makes, and you do need to take the talent of the opposing teams into consideration when making your roster selections. Subban is a spectacular NHL defenseman, yes, but will he make a spectacular Olympic defensemen? That's a difficult question to answer precisely because you can't use his NHL performance to answer that question.

Maybe it would be a mistake to exclude Subban from the roster but, again, it's not an easy decision. I think that just about anyone could design a gold-medal-winning Team Canada. There are almost certainly multiple rosters that could and would win Gold in Sochi, and Subban is likely on some of those rosters, but that doesn't make this an easy decision.

 

[Willis Jenks]

First of all I did not say that he wasn't great on the PK, I just said he wasn't the best on team canada and i would put most of the other defencemen ahead of him in that category. Secondly I was responding to another poster that said PK has proven in the past he was as good a penalty killer as anyone in the league, I disagreed with that.

I don't care what you've said or what you say, I can't take your opinion seriously until you give me reason to. If you're going to argue show up with some evidence.

 

[417]

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

The guy can't spell intense.

I would be shocked if he's not...he's always represented Canada well internationally.

Whether he should be there or not, is an entirely diff argument though

 

[Adriatic]

Well you can disagree with it...but you're 100% wrong.

Also, again, what does him not being the best on Team Canada for penalty killing have to do with anything???

I have no idea, you started talking about him being as good a penalty killer anyone in the league. I merely suggested that's impossible. He's far from being the best penalty killer on team canada, let alone the entire league.

 

[Adriatic]

I don't care what you've said or what you say, I can't take your opinion seriously until you give me reason to. If you're going to argue show up with some evidence.

You don't have to take my opinion seriously. Just like I don't take someone's opinion seriously when I hear someone say that Subban is a better defensive defenseman than Weber.

 

[417]

I have no idea, you started talking about him being as good a penalty killer anyone in the league. I merely suggested that's impossible. He's far from being the best penalty killer on team canada, let alone the entire league.

I didn't just talk about it...I provided proof. But as I said, when it comes to Subban, people ignore facts and numbers, they just want to focus on the times he does make a mistake and magnify it x100

Anyways...as it relates to Team Canada, I assume if Subban makes the team, it's because he's arguably Canada's best offensive defensman. They have other players there capable of killing penalties when the time comes.

However, if ever an injury occurs, Team Canada should rest assured...Subban has killed penalties in the NHL before and he's done it at a very high level.

 

[417]

You don't have to take my opinion seriously. Just like I don't take someone's opinion seriously when I hear someone say that Subban is a better defensive defenseman than Weber.

I don't see what makes Weber better defensively than Subban other perception...

Advanced stats don't support the theory that Weber is better defensively than Subban.

The narrative that Subban is a liability is just that...false narrative.

Nothing, absolutely nothing, supports this. Not the numbers not the way his coach utilizes him - how often to liabilities lead their team in icetime?

 

[Willis Jenks]

I'm aware of his upsides, of course. I was intentionally drawing attention to his downsides in an effort to ebb the rampant flow of Habs homerism in this thread. P.K. Subban is undoubtedly a great player, but he's not perfect. I would not at all be upset to see him on team Canada, but this isn't anywhere close to as easy a decision as so many people in this thread are making it out to be. You do need to take into consideration more than just how skilled each option is, you do need to take into consideration the risky plays Subban makes, and you do need to take the talent of the opposing teams into consideration when making your roster selections. Subban is a spectacular NHL defenseman, yes, but will he make a spectacular Olympic defensemen? That's a difficult question to answer precisely because you can't use his NHL performance to answer that question.

Maybe it would be a mistake to exclude Subban from the roster, but, again, it's not an easy decision. I think that just about anyone could design a gold-medal-winning Team Canada. There are almost certainly multiple rosters that could and would win Gold in Sochi, and Subban is likely on some of those rosters, but that doesn't make this an easy decision.

So if I'm getting this correctly you believe Subban isn't a lock for Team Canada because he can be a very risky player. I agree with you, he can be a very risky player. However, he controls when he plays a risky game and when he plays a more conservative style. People are under the belief that Pk doesn't have a switch, he's always ON, he's always searching for that big play. This is not true, when Pk plays against tougher competition in more meaningful games (playoffs mostly) he's much more defensively aware and only exhibits his offensive flair in safe situations. He was an absolute beast in the last playoffs, pretty much the only Canadien to show up and when he plays more meaningful regular season games such as games vs Boston or Pittsburgh his rises to the occasion and always plays an excellent game. He really does play well under pressure and because of his knack for rising up to the occasion I believe not only will Pk make a great Olympic defender, I believe if given the chance he will be Canada's BEST defender.

 

[Adriatic]

Anyways...as it relates to Team Canada, I assume if Subban makes the team, it's because he's arguably Canada's best offensive defensman. They have other players there capable of killing penalties when the time comes.

However, if ever an injury occurs, Team Canada should rest assured...Subban has killed penalties in the NHL before and he's done it at a very high level.

Yes I agree, he just doesn't do it for his own team that he plays for so I can understand some people having doubts.

 

[Willis Jenks]

You don't have to take my opinion seriously. Just like I don't take someone's opinion seriously when I hear someone say that Subban is a better defensive defenseman than Weber.

When someone shows concrete evidence supporting their opinion, you HAVE to take them seriously. If we don't live by logic and reason, then there is no point in arguing anything at all.

I'm not gonna support the argument of saying Subban is better defensively than Weber because I'm too lazy to do my research, but if someone presents to you solid evidence then you have NO choice but to listen.

 

[417]

So if I've getting this correct you believe Subban isn't a lock for Team Canada because he can be a very risky player. I agree with you, he can be a very risky player. However, he controls when he plays a risky game and when he plays a more conservative style. People are under the belief that Pk doesn't have a switch, he's always ON, he's always searching for that big play. This is not true, when Pk plays against tougher competition in more meaningful games (playoffs mostly) he's much more defensively aware and only exhibits his offensive flair in safe situations. He was an absolute beast in the last playoffs, pretty much the only Canadien to show up and when he plays more meaningful regular season games such as games vs Boston or Pittsburgh his rises to the occasion and always plays an excellent game. He really does play well under pressure and because of his knack for rising up to the occasion I believe not only will Pk make a great Olympic defender, I believe if given the chance he will be Canada's BEST defender.

If Subban is considered risky...then so are Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Shea Weber and Alex Pietrangelo.

Anyone who is on the ice as much as these players, who have as much responsibility as these players, will take risks from time to time. It happens, in fact, it MUST happen for these players to fully exploit their talent.

But it seems when it comes to Subban...his mistakes are magnified tenfold.

That's the only difference.

 

[GSalty]

So if I've getting this correct you believe Subban isn't a lock for Team Canada because he can be a very risky player. I agree with you, he can be a very risky player. However, he controls when he plays a risky game and when he plays a more conservative style. People are under the belief that Pk doesn't have a switch, he's always ON, he's always searching for that big play. This is not true, when Pk plays against tougher competition in more meaningful games (playoffs mostly) he's much more defensively aware and only exhibits his offensive flair in safe situations. He was an absolute beast in the last playoffs, pretty much the only Canadien to show up and when he plays more meaningful regular season games such as games vs Boston or Pittsburgh his rises to the occasion and always plays an excellent game. He really does play well under pressure and because of his knack for rising up to the occasion I believe not only will Pk make a great Olympic defender, I believe if given the chance he will be Canada's BEST defender.

Oh yeah, I forgot, Subban is the perfect player. He never makes any real mistakes because he adapts his game perfectly to every situation.

 

[Willis Jenks]

Oh yeah, I forgot, Subban is the perfect player. He never makes any real mistakes because he adapts his game perfectly to every situation.

His stats and Norris trophy support that pretty well, he's one of if not the best defensemen in the league. (He obviously makes mistake btw but not nearly as much as some believe)

 

[417]

When someone shows concrete evidence supporting their opinion, you HAVE to take them seriously. If we don't live by logic and reason, then there is no point in arguing anything at all.

I'm not gonna support the argument of saying Subban is better defensively than Weber because I'm too lazy to do my research, but if someone presents to you solid evidence then you have NO choice but to listen.

I'm not necessarily saying that Subban is better than Weber defensively, nowhere in any of my posts have I said that.

IMO, I think they are on par with each other, numbers show that Subban has been better defensively, but those need to be taken with the caveat that Weber doesn't play on a great team (though, I will argue that neither does Subban)...Subban just doesn't benefit from the same perception that Weber does. When Weber makes a mistake (and believe me, he has his fair share), no one cares. When Subban does, it's front & center everywhere and everyone is there to remind you that, THAT mistake is exaclty why he won't or shouldn't be on Team Canada.

I just have a hard time understanding how Shea Weber or Drew Doughty or Alex Pietrangelo are locks, but Subban isn't. What is it that they do, that he can't or hasn't done??

 

[Adriatic]

When someone shows concrete evidence supporting their opinion, you HAVE to take them seriously. If we don't live by logic and reason, then there is no point in arguing anything at all.

I'm not gonna support the argument of saying Subban is better defensively than Weber because I'm too lazy to do my research, but if someone presents to you solid evidence then you have NO choice but to listen.

Solid evidence?? What do you think you're in a science laboratory? Hockey is not only about numbers, it's about style and subjectivism. One gm or coach may pick an entirely different top 6 defense than another. If it was all about numbers there would be no debate as who makes the team. So if you think I owe you some kind of evidence to back up my opinion you are gonna wait a long time. My opinion is what it is, you don't have to like it or take it seriously, you can even ignore it.

 

[417]

Oh yeah, I forgot, Subban is the perfect player. He never makes any real mistakes because he adapts his game perfectly to every situation.

No one has ever said this...using hyperbole to prove your point doens't make it anymore valid.

 

[Willis Jenks]

I'm not necessarily saying that Subban is better than Weber defensively, nowhere in any of my posts have I said that.

IMO, I think they are on par with each other, numbers show that Subban has been better defensively, but those need to be taken with the caveat that Weber doesn't play on a great team (though, I will argue that neither does Subban)...Subban just doesn't benefit from the same perception that Weber does. When Weber makes a mistake (and believe me, he has his fair share), no one cares. When Subban does, it's front & center everywhere and everyone is there to remind you that, THAT mistake is exaclty why he won't or shouldn't be on Team Canada.

I just have a hard time understanding how Shea Weber or Drew Doughty or Alex Pietrangelo are locks, but Subban isn't. What is it that they do, that he can't or hasn't done??

Subban is definitely on par with these players yet TSN isn't sure if he can play as 7th or 8th defensemen in this league , it's just blind hate and I don't know what Pk did to deserve it.

I hate saying it but if Pk had the same personality as Jarome Iginla he'd be a lock for first pairing defensemen on Team Canada.

 

[Willis Jenks]

Solid evidence?? What do you think you're in a science laboratory? Hockey is not only about numbers, it's about style and subjectivism. One gm or coach may pick an entirely different top 6 defense than another. If it was all about numbers there would be no debate as who makes the team. So if you think I owe you some kind of evidence to back up my opinion you are gonna wait a long time. My opinion is what it is, you don't have to like it or take it seriously, you can even ignore it.

Once again you reconstruct my argument to make it easier for you to respond. Never have I said it was all about stats and numbers. Solid evidence doesn't only come in the form of numbers when arguing hockey. Come on man don't waste my time.

 

[Adriatic]

I'm not necessarily saying that Subban is better than Weber defensively, nowhere in any of my posts have I said that.

IMO, I think they are on par with each other, numbers show that Subban has been better defensively, but those need to be taken with the caveat that Weber doesn't play on a great team (though, I will argue that neither does Subban)...Subban just doesn't benefit from the same perception that Weber does. When Weber makes a mistake (and believe me, he has his fair share), no one cares. When Subban does, it's front & center everywhere and everyone is there to remind you that, THAT mistake is exaclty why he won't or shouldn't be on Team Canada.

I just have a hard time understanding how Shea Weber or Drew Doughty or Alex Pietrangelo are locks, but Subban isn't. What is it that they do, that he can't or hasn't done??

Can you imagine a scenario where a player in great offensively but doesn't play the power play? It would be tough to believe or even take someone seriously that would say such a thing. That's what has happened to PK. Sure you can say he great defensively, but it is hard to be taken seriously when he doesn't even play the PK on his own team. So I can understand why the perception across the league and among journalists is what it is.

 

[417]

Can you imagine a scenario where a player in great offensively but doesn't play the power play? It would be tough to believe or even take someone seriously that would say such a thing. That's what has happened to PK. Sure you can say he great defensively, but it is hard to be taken seriously when he doesn't even play the PK on his own team. So I can understand why the perception across the league and among journalists is what it is.

Sigh...

But Subban HAS played the PK and he's played it at a very high level.

But let's just take your argument for one second...Ok, so he doesn't play the penalty kill.

But he does still play against the top lines every night, he does play +25 mins a night. He is a +13 on a team that doesn't score a lot of even strength goals and he +13, again, while playing against top lines every night.

IMO, the perception of his game across the league is becaue for some reason, people have a lot of trouble giving him credit for what he is. One of the NHL's best defensman and whenever they do, it always has to be qualified with a footnote about his attitude or his behaviour.

Finally, I'm sure there are many Team Canada forwards who don't play on the PK but who will be part of Team Canada. I seriously doubt that people think they're liabilities defensively just because they're not part of their penalty killing.

It's about time the conversation shifts from what PK can't do...to what he CAN do. This whole 'penalty kill' argument is just another cherry-picked argument to try to find a reason why he shouldn't be on the team.

 

[capebretoncanadien]

I would say something but 417 is sayin it all.

Excellent posting.

 

[Adriatic]

Sigh...

But Subban HAS played the PK and he's played it at a very high level.

But let's just take your argument for one second...Ok, so he doesn't play the penalty kill.

But he does still play against the top lines every night, he does play +25 mins a night. He is a +13 on a team that doesn't score a lot of even strength goals and he +13, again, while playing against top lines every night.

IMO, the perception of his game across the league is becaue for some reason, people have a lot of trouble giving him credit for what he is. One of the NHL's best defensman and whenever they do, it always has to be qualified with a footnote about his attitude or his behaviour.

Finally, I'm sure there are many Team Canada forwards who don't play on the PK but who will be part of Team Canada. I seriously doubt that people think they're liabilities defensively just because they're not part of their penalty killing.

It's about time the conversation shifts from what PK can't do...to what he CAN do.

I agree but you asked about what makes those other defensemen locks for team canada in the eyes of whoever is deciding. It's probably that, those other guys play the PK are trusted by their coach to do so. That's what those guys have that PK doesn't for the moment. Whether that's fair or not is a separate issue. I don't think they are looking at what PK did 3 years ago.

 

[417]

I agree but you asked about what makes those other defensemen locks for team canada in the eyes of whoever is deciding. It's probably that, those other guys play the PK are trusted by their coach to do so. That's what those guys have that PK doesn't for the moment. Whether that's fair or not is a separate issue. I don't think they are looking at what PK did 3 years ago.

But that's just ONE aspect of the game...I mean, fine, don't have Subban kill penalties because his coach doesn't 'trust' him enough to do it.

But also recognize that his coach trusts him enough to play 25+ mins a game against the best stars in the game night in, night out.

Recognize that there are likely to be game situations where you're going to need offensive and mobility from the back end, something he does better than any other Canadian defensman.

Again...when it comes to Subban, the focus is always on what he CAN'T do...never on what he CAN.

I mean, i'm sorry...but this penalty kill argument is so weak

The Chicago Blackhawks are 28th in the NHL on the penalty kill...

Duncan Keith and Brent Seabrook average 2:14mins & 1:50mins respectively on that awful PK per game

So yes, it's great...they play on the PK. But they're awful at it if you look at the numbers.

Does anyone care to point this out???

of course not

 

[GSalty]

No one has ever said this...using hyperbole to prove your point doens't make it anymore valid.

It isn't hyperbole when people are literally downplaying Subban's downsides to the point that they appear irrelevant. Are we trying to build the best Canadian roster we can, or are we trying to worship Subban like a God?

 

[overlords]

It isn't hyperbole when people are literally downplaying Subban's downsides to the point that they appear irrelevant. Are we trying to build the best Canadian roster we can, or are we trying to worship Subban like a God?

It isn't hyperbole, indeed.