TSN: Dreger and Mckenzie's Team Canada

[417]

It isn't hyperbole when people are literally downplaying Subban's downsides to the point that they appear irrelevant. Are we trying to build the best Canadian roster we can, or are we trying to worship Subban like a God?

Subban isn't a perfect player, in fact, no one on Team Canada is.

But it would be great if ALL players considered were judged on the same scale, as opposed to holding one particular player to an unrealistic standard because it's easier to point out his flaws in such scenario.

I'm interested in building the best Canadian roster...and leaving Subban off the roster or not having him as a 'lock', IMO, is as ludicrous as saying not having Keith, Doughty, Weber, Pietrangelo as locks.

 

[googlymoogly]

So if I'm getting this correctly you believe Subban isn't a lock for Team Canada because he can be a very risky player. I agree with you, he can be a very risky player. However, he controls when he plays a risky game and when he plays a more conservative style. People are under the belief that Pk doesn't have a switch, he's always ON, he's always searching for that big play. This is not true, when Pk plays against tougher competition in more meaningful games (playoffs mostly) he's much more defensively aware and only exhibits his offensive flair in safe situations. He was an absolute beast in the last playoffs, pretty much the only Canadien to show up and when he plays more meaningful regular season games such as games vs Boston or Pittsburgh his rises to the occasion and always plays an excellent game. He really does play well under pressure and because of his knack for rising up to the occasion I believe not only will Pk make a great Olympic defender, I believe if given the chance he will be Canada's BEST defender.

He can also get under the skin of opponents. He can force a guy like Malkin to take penalties and probably would be one of the better physical hitters on the blueline besides Weber.

 

[Adriatic]

But that's just ONE aspect of the game...I mean, fine, don't have Subban kill penalties because his coach doesn't 'trust' him enough to do it.

But also recognize that his coach trusts him enough to play 25+ mins a game against the best stars in the game night in, night out.

Recognize that there are likely to be game situations where you're going to need offensive and mobility from the back end, something he does better than any other Canadian defensman.

Again...when it comes to Subban, the focus is always on what he CAN'T do...never on what he CAN.

I mean, i'm sorry...but this penalty kill argument is so weak

The Chicago Blackhawks are 28th in the NHL on the penalty kill...

Duncan Keith and Brent Seabrook average 2:14mins & 1:50mins respectively on that awful PK per game

So yes, it's great...they play on the PK. But they're awful at it if you look at the numbers.

Does anyone care to point this out???

of course not

I'll give you a stat, the Hawks PK was over 90% in the playoffs, top 3 of all playoff teams and both Keith and Seabrook played most of it.

 

[GSalty]

It isn't hyperbole, indeed.

Lol, I know, I know. But hyperbole aside, tell me honestly that you're not seeing what I'm seeing. We have people saying that Subban is at least as good defensively and on the PK as every other defensemen on the TSN projection roster and that those same players are at least as risky as him, too. Just what weaknesses does Subban have then? I'm following these arguments and finding myself thinking that, if true, Subban almost shouldn't leave the ice at Sochi.

 

[417]

I'll give you a stat, the Hawks PK was over 90% in the playoffs, top 3 of all playoff teams and both Keith and Seabrook played most of it.

Again...you're just cherry picking arguments

I don't actually care what rank the Hawks PK is, i'm just pointing out how flimsy that argument is

It's so flimsy that you've now moved on to using playoff stats because the current regular season stats can't support this weak *** theory

So PK's numbers 3 years ago are inconsequential...but the Hawks numbers from last year aren't?

Is there a cut-off period that is acceptable? Is it 6 months? 1 year?

Give me a break...you're just proving my point for me

 

[Kriss E]

It isn't hyperbole when people are literally downplaying Subban's downsides to the point that they appear irrelevant. Are we trying to build the best Canadian roster we can, or are we trying to worship Subban like a God?

If you can't see the irony in your post, just look at Overlord's response.

And then again, ''PK's downsides'' are not bad. There isn't anything he can't do, and he isn't bad at anything. If he is, please tell me where he's bad. But everybody has weaknesses, yet somehow it's only PK's that are brought up.
Looking at just the penalty killing numbers and coming up with the conclusion that he isn't good at it is pretty ridiculous.
As 417 has mentioned on more than one occasion, if PK was never used there before in his career, then okay, maybe that could be the case. However, we know that he was used there regularly a before the Therrien era and we had an even better PK at the time. So what is it, he started sucking when Therrien came over??
Or, you look at the rest of his numbers and you see that the coach is using him a few seconds short of 20min at ES on average, the most on the team, and is the most used on the PP as well.
I don't understand how someone that isn't good enough to play on the PK and is more of an offensive specialist is then used the most at ES, and does it versus the best opponents. This doesn't add up.
What makes the most sense is that the coach just rather him be fresh for where he really excels, at ES and on the PP.


As for him vs Weber. PK is ahead of him, and don't get me wrong, Weber has been my favorite NHL Dman for years, mainly because of his bomb and his physicality. A big two way physical Dman with a bomb shot is exactly the type of D I like. But PK is ahead of him overall. PK's game is a lot more complete than Weber's.

 

[Adriatic]

Again...you're just cherry picking arguments

I don't actually care what rank the Hawks PK is, i'm just pointing out how flimsy that argument is

It's so flimsy that you've now moved on to using playoff stats because the current regular season stats can't support this weak *** theory

So PK's numbers 3 years ago are inconsequential...but the Hawks numbers from last year aren't?

Is there a cut-off period that is acceptable? Is it 6 months? 1 year?

Give me a break...you're just proving my point for me

You started with the stats, my whole point is that stats are inconsequential, that's why I don't even bother responding to someone who quotes stats. But ya I do put more stock in last year's stanley cup winning stats that Subban's pk stats from 3 years ago on a garbage team lol. No one is saying Subban is not great, but it's understandable that some may have some doubts on his defensive game when his coach is not playing him to kill penalties. If I am making a team and 1 out of the 8 defensemen I am considering does not play the penalty kill, it's probably normal to wonder why..that's all!

 

[417]

You started with the stats, my whole point is that stats are inconsequential, that's why I don't even bother responding to someone who quotes stats. But ya I do put more stock in last year's stanley cup winning stats that Subban's pk stats from 3 years ago on a garbage team lol. No one is saying Subban is not great, but it's understandable that some may have some doubts on his defensive game when his coach is not playing him to kill penalties. If I am making a team and 1 out of the 8 defensemen I am considering does not play the penalty kill, it's probably normal to wonder why..that's all!

I know my head hurts just reading that...your head must be about to explode

 

[Kriss E]

You started with the stats, my whole point is that stats are inconsequential, that's why I don't even bother responding to someone who quotes stats. But ya I do put more stock in last year's stanley cup winning stats that Subban's pk stats from 3 years ago on a garbage team lol. No one is saying Subban is not great, but it's understandable that some may have some doubts on his defensive game when his coach is not playing him to kill penalties. If I am making a team and 1 out of the 8 defensemen I am considering does not play the penalty kill, it's probably normal to wonder why..that's all!

Well if you're making a team and don't you think it's more important to look at WHY said player isn't used on the PK??

And you just flat out admitted to cherry picking btw.

 

[Adriatic]

Well if you're making a team and don't you think it's more important to look at WHY said player isn't used on the PK??

And you just flat out admitted to cherry picking btw.

Of course it's important.

 

[Habs]

Yet he's pretty much a lock to be there...

Which goes back to my analogy about bringing a neanderthal for no reason. Rick Nash hasn't done anything in recent memory to warrant a spot on this team. It's an 'Old Boys' mentality picking these players, I'm even questioning how much input Yzerman has at this point. Too many of the old guard are pulling the strings behind the scenes.

 

[Kriss E]

Of course it's important.

Well then, maybe you should start talking about that instead of just looking at the ice time.

If Subban was bad on the PK, which is a pure shutdown role, then I don't see why he would be our most used Dman at ES versus the best opponents.
It just doesn't make sense. What makes sense is that Subby is simply being saved for his ES and PP time where he leads the team. Seeing how we have a very good PK, there's no need to also make him play there for more minutes. If we sucked there, I'm pretty sure he'd be used there more.
You look at his other coaches used him and they relied on him for PK a lot, and he had no problem being a key part of some of the best PK in the NHL.

So, ya, maybe the issue isn't with Subban's actual PK skills but more about how the team is now using him.

 

[417]

Of course it's important.

Well the performance of said players on the penalty kill should also be taken into account

Again...Hawks are statistically one of the worse teams down shorthanded.

Does it matter to you, or others that Keith and Seabrook play a central role in that unit?

I keep reading that Shea Weber is the ultimate shutdown and complete defenceman

Well he's a -13 (I don't put a ton of stock in that stat, but it does hold SOME merit)

Subban is a +13...do you think if Subban was a -13 like Weber, that people would also say that his team isn't that strong, just like they do for Weber?

I can assure you they wouldn't.

Look, I don't think it matters if Subban is better than Weber, that's a totally subjective argument and I don't think there's a wrong answer.

But it wuld be nice if both players chances to make the Olympic team were based on the same criteria...based on everything we know about all of Team Canada's dmen

Seems to me there should be 5 sure-fire locks for this team

Duncan Keith, Drew Doughty, Shea Weber, Alex Pietrangelo...and yes, PK Subban

Enough with this ridiculous penalty kill argument, or this even more ridiculous right/left argument (which apparently, only affects Subban's chances) or this idea that Subban couldn't accept a lesser role.

We Habs fans have the luxury of watching Subban for 82 games...does anyone think that if he made the team as a 7th, that it wouldn't be a matter of time until he moves up the depth chart...

 

[GlassesJacketShirt]

I think Canada has Subban penciled in, and I do think Babcock is going to give Subban the chance to move up the lineup if he performs well. Let's be honest: there is likely going to be one person who struggles in the top six, and I'm betting on it being either Bouwmeester or Weber. If Subban deserves the minutes, he will get it, let's think reasonably here instead of listening to the media.

 

[Adriatic]

Enough with this ridiculous penalty kill argument, or this even more ridiculous right/left argument (which apparently, only affects Subban's chances) or this idea that Subban couldn't accept a lesser role.

We Habs fans have the luxury of watching Subban for 82 games...does anyone think that if he made the team as a 7th, that it wouldn't be a matter of time until he moves up the depth chart...

I don't get you. You ask what do the others have that Subban doesn't, when I tell you get frustrated and act like the whole world is against Subban. You cannot debate the fact that the coach doesn't play Subban on the pk. I don't agree with it but that's something the other defensemen have over PK. He's still gonna make the team.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

TC is stupid if Subban isn't on the team. That being said, part of me just thinks it's TSN (and other media sources) wanting the attention from it and Subban will be on the team.

 

[tinyzombies]

By the way, TSN has the following;

Logan Couture - Sidney Crosby - Steven Stamkos
Jamie Benn - Jonathan Toews - Corey Perry
Matt Duchene - Ryan Getzlaf - Claude Giroux
Patrick Sharp - John Tavares - Rick Nash
Patrice Bergeron - Martin St. Louis

Duncan Keith - Drew Doughty
Jay Bouwmeester - Shea Weber
Marc-Edouard Vlasic - Alex Pietrangelo
Dan Boyle (R) - P.K. Subban

Carey Price
Roberto Luongo
Mike Smith

On the bubble;
C - Eric Staal
LW - Chris Kunitz
LW - Patrick Marleau
RW - Jeff Carter

LD - Mark Giordano
LD - Dan Hamhuis
LD - Marc Staal
RD - Brent Seabrook

Subban and Letang have to be on this team. On big ice? Are they kidding? and how does he leave Carter off? He can't. Carter scores and can fly. Same with Eric Staal. Cannot leave him off. I doubt Benn and Duchene will get the nod over those two. Nash might be the expendable one this time. No way on earth they leave St. Louis off the team, whether Stammer is there or not. He's perfect for Olympic ice.

This team will be a Red Wing team - puck possession. So, I'd be surprised if Joe Thornton was not 4th line center. That causes two mismatches for Team USA's Backes (Getzlaf AND Thornton). And good luck to Pavelski or Kesler in handling Sid and Toews as the two other centers.

Tavares can move to the wing. We have Toews, so Bergeron isn't necessary.

I'd be shocked if Stamkos was ready. And even if he is, can he handle top line duties or will they spot him on the powerplay?

Couture I don't mind. Finishing will be important in a tourney, as always. Stevie Y added all those losers from San Jose last time, but I doubt Marleau will be back.

 

[417]

I don't get you. You ask what do the others have that Subban doesn't, when I tell you get frustrated and act like the whole world is against Subban. You cannot debate the fact that the coach doesn't play Subban on the pk. I don't agree with it but that's something the other defensemen have over PK. He's still gonna make the team.

Frustrated? Lol yeah hardly

And I'm not worried if he's going to make the team or not, I never thought he would be denied

I'm talking strictly about the reasons for why some people think he might not make it, reasons that for the most part, only apply to him

 

[Picaroon]

I'm seeing a lot of over reaction here. This team looks pretty similar to what most people are saying. The only things I would change are Nash and Boyle. No need for those guys. They didn't earn it the past 2 years. Marleau should be there instead of Nash.

Subban will make the team. They are taking 8 D this year. He might have to earn a starting spot but I have no doubt he will do just that.

 

[tinyzombies]

I'm seeing a lot of over reaction here. This team looks pretty similar to what most people are saying. The only things I would change are Nash and Boyle. No need for those guys. They didn't earn it the past 2 years. Marleau should be there instead of Nash.

Subban will make the team. They are taking 8 D this year. He might have to earn a starting spot but I have no doubt he will do just that.

Marleau is terrible. If USA is going with a pace game, we can't afford having a guy who plays with zero urgency. If we are going with a puck possession game vs USA's puck pursuit/counter game, then it will be guys like Thornton, Getzlaf, Perry, Nash, etc. on the team. Even if it's on big ice.

And if that's true, he has to go with PK to add offense in case something like 1998 happens again.

 

[McGreat One]

Subban plays on average a minute or two less a game than Weber. If Weber was on par with PK offensively, he'd be playing less on the PK and more on the PP and 5 on 5. Is Canada's job going to be to win games or not to lose?

Wouldn't be a bad argument only for Weber actually plays more 5 on 5 than Subban does.

I actually agree that Subban is better offensively and will be for in the years to come. I've never once in my posts said that he's not. But I did say that the gap offensively is not as large as some people might think. Weber only has 6 less points in 3 less games than Subban and with the exception of last season has had more points than PK in every season both have been in the league together. I understand, though, that Weber is 4 years older than PK and age and experience plays a large factor why he's put up more points but to say that Weber is not on par offensively than Subban would be a false statement at this point in their careers.

 

[tinyzombies]

Wouldn't be a bad argument only for Weber actually plays more 5 on 5 than Subban does.

I actually agree that Subban is better offensively and will be for in the years to come. I've never once in my posts said that he's not. But I did say that the gap offensively is not as large as some people might think. Weber only has 6 less points in 3 less games than Subban and with the exception of last season has had more points than PK in every season both have been in the league together. I understand, though, that Weber is 4 years older than PK and age and experience plays a large factor why he's put up more points but to say that Weber is not on par offensively than Subban would be a false statement at this point in their careers.

Weber is a stud. So, by definition, PK is a stud. Both play in defensive systems and put up big points.

 

[SB164]

The craziest thing is, the likes of TSN and other media almost have me believing that PK isn't in fact one of the top 5 defenseman in the league. Sometimes I wonder if they watch the same games we do.

Keith, Doughty, Pietrangelo, and Weber aren't perfect by any means. But they can only gain favour while Subban can only lose favour.

I swear, it's like some form of Orwellian mind**** going on with Subban. We're constantly told he's this or he's that when we all perfectly know that he's actually one of the best in the game. "Subban is risky, Subban can't play defense", ie "2+2=5". What's the saying? If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it.

 

[tinyzombies]

The craziest thing is, the likes of TSN and other media almost have me believing that PK isn't in fact one of the top 5 defenseman in the league. Sometimes I wonder if they watch the same games we do.

Keith, Doughty, Pietrangelo, and Weber aren't perfect by any means. But they can only gain favour while Subban can only lose favour.

I swear, it's like some form of Orwellian mind**** going on with Subban. We're constantly told he's this or he's that when we all perfectly know that he's actually one of the best in the game. "Subban is risky, Subban can't play defense", ie "2+2=5". What's the saying? If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it.

Doughty hasn't exactly been studly recently.

 

[tinyzombies]

2010 line combinations from USA game:

Staal-Crosby-Iginla
Morrow-Getzlaf-Perry (PP1)
Heatley-Thornton-Marleau (PP2)
Nash-Toews-Richards
Bergeron

Niedermayer-Weber/Boyle
Pronger-Boyle
Keith-Seabrook/Doughty

Pronger-Neidermayer (PP1)
Boyle/Keith-Weber (PP2)

Luongo
Brodeur



ALL PUCK POSSESSION GUYS...

2010 report card:

Duncan Keith: Going into the Games, the Chicago defenceman was thought to be third or fourth on the team's depth chart. He ended up averaging 20:44 of ice time per game, tops on the team, and was used in every situation. 8.

Shea Weber: He was just behind Keith with 20:27 of ice time per game. As well as solid play at both ends, the Nashville Predator brought a nasty physical game and some thundering checks, especially on Russia's Alex Ovechkin, and a heavy shot, one of which went straight through the net against Germany. 8.

Dan Boyle: A point man on the power play, he also rushed the puck well and ended up tied with Weber and Keith with six points for the tournament. He started slow and has never been a strong defensive zone rearguard, but contributed at what he does well. 6.

Drew Doughty: A big future awaits for the 20-year-old Los Angeles King. He was beaten a few times, but the coaches kept going back to him for his sheer talent and playmaking ability. He played 18:08 per game and was plus-6. 7.

Brent Seabrook: It was thought he would form a natural pair with his Chicago partner Keith, but he ended up as the extra defenceman, playing 8:26 per game. Still, he made no glaring errors, and was plus-2 for the week. 6.

http://sports.ca.msn.com/olympics/article.aspx?cp-documentid=23557187

Eric Staal: A player barely noticed amid the other stars, he ended with six points in seven games and was plus-6, using his big reach effectively on attack and to check opponents. 7.

Mike Richards: At the start he was a candidate for the 13th forward's job, but ended up playing a gritty left wing on Toews' line, picked up five points and finished plus-5. Also shone on the top penalty-killing pair with Toews. 7.

Rick Nash: The big, scoring winger was a bust early on Crosby's line, but become a force when ''dropped'' down to Toews' trio. He got to show off the two-way game he has nurtured recently with Columbus. 8.

Ryan Getzlaf: Big body, soft hands — a deadly combination on an NHL-size rink. Played through an ankle injury and, while he started slowly, became a scoring force at the end with three goals and four assists. 7.

Corey Perry: Like Getzlaf, got strong as the tournament progressed. Threw some big hits, won some tough battles and scored four goals. 7.

Patrick Marleau: His game got grittier as the tournament went on, even as his linemates tailed off. 6.

Joe Thornton: Didn't do anything to change the minds of critics who say he fades in big games. The big centre was never horrible, but had only two points and was minus-1 on a team with only two players on the minus side. 5.