TSN: Dreger and Mckenzie's Team Canada

[McGreat One]

Don't get me wrong, he's a great D man and yes, he does deserve to be on the team. But the -13 isn't exactly the best plus/minus going. And yes, I know all of the semantics surrounding plus/minus about how it can be unreliable and isn't a great stat, etc. But these guys play the exact same type of minutes against the exact same kind of opposition every night. Both play similar roles on their respective teams. The fact that Weber is a LOCK based on what he's done this year, and Subban isn't based on what he's done last year with the Norris winning season, and this year with those numbers is absolute bull.

All I'm trying to say.

See this is where you're wrong. They may play similar roles and play somewhat similar minutes on the pp and 5 on 5, but Weber plays much more on the penalty kill than Subban and its not even close really. If Subban was even on par with Weber defensively don't you think he'd be playing more than 46 seconds per game on the penalty kill? I doubt very much Weber would be second last among dmen in shorthanded time on ice if he was with the Habs instead of Nashville.

I'm not saying Subban is a scrub defensively by no means, I'm just comparing him to Shea Weber and strongly believe he's nowhere near Weber's level when it comes to the defensive aspects of the game.

 

[Video Coach]

I'd honestly rather take a chance with Jeff Carter before Nash.

I'm sick of Canada catering to players that have played internationally before. It killed the team in Turin.

Yeah, I think Carter, Nash and Staal are all battling it out. I would take Carter or Staal.

 

[Video Coach]

See this is where you're wrong. They may play similar roles and play somewhat similar minutes on the pp and 5 on 5, but Weber plays much more on the penalty kill than Subban and its not even close really. If Subban was even on par with Weber defensively don't you think he'd be playing more than 46 seconds per game on the penalty kill? I doubt very much Weber would be second last among dmen in shorthanded time on ice if he was with the Habs instead of Nashville.

I'm not saying Subban is a scrub defensively by no means, I'm just comparing him to Shea Weber and strongly believe he's nowhere near Weber's lever when it comes to the defensive aspects of the game.

I'd also add he has more international experience at the Sr level and has been a leader on his team for many years. He's more of a known quantity.

I think Subban will make it, but those are the reasons he's not on the same level as Weber.

 

[le_sean]

Yeah, I think Carter, Nash and Staal are all battling it out. I would take Carter or Staal.

I like Staal a lot. He's a better player than his numbers indicate.

Carter is more cerebral, he looks lazy but he's incredibly smart. He also has a laser shot.

Nash has gamebreaking ability but is invisible most of the time. Not very good defensively.

So, I agree with you, I'd rather Carter or Staal over Nash.

 

[McGreat One]

I'd also add he has more international experience at the Sr level and has been a leader on his team for many years. He's more of a known quantity.

I think Subban will make it, but those are the reasons he's not on the same level as Weber.

Great point. And for the record I believe Subban deserves to be there, but used as a specialist the same way Bergeron made it last time. Give Subban limited minutes but use him as much as you can on the powerplay. He will be Canada's best offensive dman there so make use of his strong suits.

 

[Power Man]

You're not a Canadian.

Im not Canadian so I will cheer for another country

 

[ChesterNimitz]

Team Canada is going to get picked like how the team Canada wjc was picked. They won't win the gold, yet again.

So true. So true. The same geniuses who picked Rychel over Domi, Poirier, etc. will once again pick players whose bloated statistics and reputations do not translate well on the big ice. We never seem to learn.

 

[loudi94]

Can't remember which reporter said it but he mentioned if Canada is worried about bringing people who may make defensive mistakes instead of bringing people that bring the offense, they're in trouble on the big ice. We just saw it play out in the WJC.

 

[Adriatic]

Don't get me wrong, he's a great D man and yes, he does deserve to be on the team. But the -13 isn't exactly the best plus/minus going. And yes, I know all of the semantics surrounding plus/minus about how it can be unreliable and isn't a great stat, etc. But these guys play the exact same type of minutes against the exact same kind of opposition every night. Both play similar roles on their respective teams. The fact that Weber is a LOCK based on what he's done this year, and Subban isn't based on what he's done last year with the Norris winning season, and this year with those numbers is absolute bull.

All I'm trying to say.

Actually no they don't play against the same kind of opposition. Those stats are meaningless, Nashville is in much tougher conference and constantly has to play against teams like Chicago, St-Louis, Colorado, Kings, Sharks and Ducks. If Habs would be in the West not only would they not be making the playoffs, but none of their players would be +

 

[417]

While I agree that Subban earned his spot on the team and that he is better than some of the dmen mentioned to be picked before him, I totally disagree that he is better than Shea Weber. And imo anyone who think otherwise "just isn't watching the game".

Although losing Suter as his d partner may have hurt his numbers a bit, anyone who watch enough of Weber know he is still a top tier shut down guy. Add that to the fact that he's still putting up very good offensive numbers, on pace for 20 goals and over 50 points, then this makes him still one of the better defenceman in the league and a lock for Team Canada.

I completely disagree...just because he's physical, does not make him a shut down defensman. In fact, I think his defense is probably the weakest part of his game.

He's a very good dman, he's got a bomb on the point, he can make life miserable for opponents on the boards and in front of the net. But he's got a lot of holes positionally defensively and hasn't not looked the same since he lost Ryan Suter, who IMO, was always the better of the players between them.

 

[417]

Ya Weber's a beast, best shut down d in the league imo.

Do people bother watching even watching him? Or just assume because he's "Shea Weber" that he MUST be a great shutdown D?

 

[CaptainBenn]

You're not a Canadian.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Ever cheered for Phelps or Usain Bolt? You must not be a Canadian then!

 

[417]

See this is where you're wrong. They may play similar roles and play somewhat similar minutes on the pp and 5 on 5, but Weber plays much more on the penalty kill than Subban and its not even close really. If Subban was even on par with Weber defensively don't you think he'd be playing more than 46 seconds per game on the penalty kill? I doubt very much Weber would be second last among dmen in shorthanded time on ice if he was with the Habs instead of Nashville.

I'm not saying Subban is a scrub defensively by no means, I'm just comparing him to Shea Weber and strongly believe he's nowhere near Weber's level when it comes to the defensive aspects of the game.

Why Subban doesn't play on the PK is a whole debate all together, because when he has, he's proven to be as good as anyone in the entire league at killing penalties.

 

[SnapVirus]

If subban is not on TC. **** TC.

 

[Adriatic]

Why Subban doesn't play on the PK is a whole debate all together, because when he has, he's proven to be as good as anyone in the entire league at killing penalties.

lol no he hasn't!

 

[ChesterNimitz]

Great point. And for the record I believe Subban deserves to be there, but used as a specialist the same way Bergeron made it last time. Give Subban limited minutes but use him as much as you can on the powerplay. He will be Canada's best offensive dman there so make use of his strong suits.

While I think Subban is great NHL player, I believe he will be less effective on the bigger ice surface than many think. Subban is what we call a 'noisy' skater who has an overly wide, ineffective stride which really impacts his straight line and recovery speed. Compare him to the almost effortless skaters like Karlson and the young American defencemen, Fowler and Carlson who are at full speed in one or two strides. Subban on the otherhand, can only attain his top speed by gaining momentum by circling the net. Without this artifice, Subban is usually incapable of beating the first forechecker and must either pass off the puck or circle back. This is a limitation that does not affect other elite skating defencemen. Make no mistake about it, I firmly believe Subban should be on the team. He plays with a level of passion and has an ice presence ( both physically and offensively) that will make the Team Canada that much stronger. I just don't think he will have the dominating effect that some Montreal fans think he will have. The limitations in his skating will act to mute his impact.

 

[loudi94]

See this is where you're wrong. They may play similar roles and play somewhat similar minutes on the pp and 5 on 5, but Weber plays much more on the penalty kill than Subban and its not even close really. If Subban was even on par with Weber defensively don't you think he'd be playing more than 46 seconds per game on the penalty kill? I doubt very much Weber would be second last among dmen in shorthanded time on ice if he was with the Habs instead of Nashville.

I'm not saying Subban is a scrub defensively by no means, I'm just comparing him to Shea Weber and strongly believe he's nowhere near Weber's level when it comes to the defensive aspects of the game.

Subban plays on average a minute or two less a game than Weber. If Weber was on par with PK offensively, he'd be playing less on the PK and more on the PP and 5 on 5. Is Canada's job going to be to win games or not to lose?

 

[417]

lol no he hasn't!

He hasn't eh?

Maybe check the numbers from 2 years ago...and the year prior to that when Subban was used and leaned HEAVILY when Jacques Martin was with the Habs and the Habs were one of the best PK teams in the NHL

 

[Sterling Archer]

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-p...nada-failed-world-juniors-141929737--nhl.html

"Most pundits seem to have Chris Kunitz on the team despite the fact that, as Thomas Drance pointed out the other day, he's the Jesse Pinkman to Sidney Crosby's Walter White. That means leaving home a player like Taylor Hall — who wasn't even on Hockey Night in Canada's assuredly well-informed list of “bubble†guys over the weekend — despite the fact that his points per game from 2011-12 to present is first among NHL left wings from any country. They've obviously very good, but Evgeni Malkin they are not. Likewise, things are starting to look pretty iffy for PK Subban — the reigning Norris Trophy winner, mind you — to stay home, while someone like Johnny Boychuk of all people is apparently also being considered on his same level.
The argument put forth in to refute disbelievers who wanted to scream in the streets about these kinds of decisions, particularly following recent tournament results, was 34 years old, harkening back to Herb Brooks's old philosophy. You don't want a roster of “the best players,†you want a roster of “the right players.â€
The lesson we should take from this the Turin Olympics, and recent World Junior results, is that as “the world catches up†to the sleepy giants of North America, the best players, in fact, ARE the right players. If you score enough goals, you can't screw it up. Everyone else figured that out already."


We're not the only ones thinking Canada is lost when it comes to picking players.

Good article. I hope the decision makers realize that the best players are the ones who should be on the team and not pull a Junior Team move. When the chips are down and it's your 4th line versus the other teams 4th line, do you want grinders or do you want a line that could be the other teams 1st line? Seems pretty dumb. The more depth in your lineup with skill, the more unfair the match ups are against the other teams. Who wouldn't want their 1st line going up against the other teams 3rd and 4th lines while still matching up the first 2 lines?

Same goes on defence. All the guys including PK can shut down opposing forwards while still generate offence. Why sacrifice one for the other when you don't have to.

If they play the go with positrion players over the best players, they will be doomed to fail as their taking away the best advanatge we have, a ridiculous depth of TALENT.

 

[Adriatic]

He hasn't eh?

Maybe check the numbers from 2 years ago...and the year prior to that when Subban was used and leaned HEAVILY when Jacques Martin was with the Habs and the Habs were one of the best PK teams in the NHL

Ya he hasn't. PK is not the best Canadian penalty killer, far from it.

 

[GSalty]

Okay, I can kinda understand the Habs homerism because I'm a Habs fan myself, but come on, this is team Canada. Unless you're a non-Canadian Canadiens fans, doesn't team Canada take priority over the Habs? I would love to see as many Habs on the team as possible, but Subban, like all Canadian Dmen, has some ridiculous competition, and don't be such a homer that you reject all Subban criticism. No player is perfect, and Subban definitely has a tendency to make very risky plays.

Take the game in Dallas for example. He had a great game, no doubt. But do you really think he could have scored that goal if he was facing down Ekman-Larsson and Karlsson instead of the two Dallas Dmen on that play? Can anyone be sure his stretch-pass to Pacioretty would have made it through any given elite talent in the neutral-zone (and would an Olympic team be as likely to afford him that play)? I remember another play in that game where he fanned on a between-the-legs drop pass across the blueline to Boullion. Fortunately for the Habs, the Stars were unable to capitalize on that mistake, but do you want a player on your team who's willing to take that risk against potential lines like Ovechkin-Datsyuk-Malkin? I'm not saying Subban is a bad player and wouldn't fit on team Canada, but he is a high-risk, high-reward player, and when you're playing against teams that have the literal best-of-the-best filling the entirety of their roster, the risks Subban takes become a hell of a lot more of a risk, and their payoffs becomes far less given the defensive strength of the opposing teams.

 

[Jigger77]

While I think Subban is great NHL player, I believe he will be less effective on the bigger ice surface than many think. Subban is what we call a 'noisy' skater who has an overly wide, ineffective stride which really impacts his straight line and recovery speed. Compare him to the almost effortless skaters like Karlson and the young American defencemen, Fowler and Carlson who are at full speed in one or two strides. Subban on the otherhand, can only attain his top speed by gaining momentum by circling the net. Without this artifice, Subban is usually incapable of beating the first forechecker and must either pass off the puck or circle back. This is a limitation that does not affect other elite skating defencemen. Make no mistake about it, I firmly believe Subban should be on the team. He plays with a level of passion and has an ice presence ( both physically and offensively) that will make the Team Canada that much stronger. I just don't think he will have the dominating effect that some Montreal fans think he will have. The limitations in his skating will act to mute his impact.

Interesting. Not sure I agree with your conclusion, but interesting nonetheless.

Reason I disagree is that he makes up for that shortfall because he has better hands than many forwards. He is a wizard with the puck and I can count the times on one hand when that first forechecker was able to strip him of it. He makes up for that slower acceleration with elite puck handling skills. Not only in terms of using his body positioning to protect the puck but with his vision of the ice, passing skills (which have improved 10-fold) and his ability to work in tight areas. I actually think that trait will be accentuated on the bigger ice surface.

 

[JLP]

Im a canadian but if Subban is left out I will cheer for another country.

Me too.

Me three and I've been saying this for months. Was leaning to host side Russia, but now that Plekanec is wearing the C for Czech I dunno...

The Team Canada Subban issue is a barometer for this country's IQ.

 

[417]

Ya he hasn't. PK is not the best Canadian penalty killer, far from it.

I never said PK is the best Canadian penalty killer...I said he doesn't kill penalties on the Habs, and that's the coaches decision, but when he has killed penalities, he's done it at an elite level

Don't believe me? Here are facts (i know people prefer perception rather than facts when it comes to Subban, but these numbers can't be ignored)

http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/2013/1/21/3884474/p-k-subban-vs-his-peers-habs-montreal-canadiens

specifically...this part

"Remember that "P.K. stands for Penalty Kill" joke? It actually might as well be true. P.K. Subban was outstanding as a penalty killer in 2011-12. This can't be emphasized enough. The Habs' penalty kill suffered virtually no drop off after the trade of Hal Gill, which increased Subban's role even more as he jumped from a heavily used 3rd option to the default top 2 option with Josh Gorges. The Canadiens' penalty kill as a whole was outstanding, but Subban was a major part of its success. Compared to other top defenders in the league Subban stood out in this discipline.

It is tough to totally separate the system from the player, particularly in special teams, but Subban compared favourably to both Gorges and Gill in this regard, and no other Canadiens blueliners were even close to the level of those three."

If we're being honest, theres virtually nothing Subban can't do at at least, an above-average level...but because some people don't like his 'style' or the way he plays. They put these labels on him which are completely unfounded just to justify their criticism of him, when in reality, none of the numbers bear out this criticism.

Does Subban make questionable decisions with the puck at times? No doubt he does and he also needs to improve his clock-management decisions. He tends to want to do too much at the wrong time sometimes, and that can turn out bad. But other than that, it is completely fallacy that he's poor defensively, or can't kill penalties or that he wouldn't accept a lesser role on team Canada, or that he would be a distraction.

 

[SakuSauce]

My lineup

Kunitz - Crosby - Stamkos/Sharp
Couture - Thornton - Giroux
Sharp/Benn - Getzlaf - Perry
Tavares - Toews - Bergeron
St-Louis, Duchene

Keith - Seabrook
Weber - Doughty
Bouwmeester - Pietrangelo
Vlasic, Subban

Price
Luongo
Smith

Thats super tough.