Douglas Murray: What a hit!
- Thread starter rockjngo
- Start date
So how many Fenwicks does he get for that? Math nerds may have impacted a boring sport like baseball that needs all the help it can get, but it ain't gonna work in hockey. It's a team sport...too many team variables.
Best advanced stat NHLer ever? A fellow named Fenwick Corsi....grandfather of one-time NHL backup goalie Jim Corsi....played rover for the Seattle Metropolitans..his stats were so advanced that you can't find mention of him anywhere.
Aww come on, Grant. You know advance stats tell the whole story. I think it was two games ago, according to advanced stats Colton Orr was the best player.
Marc the Habs Fan
Moderator
I think Fenwick/Corsi is useful stat in some regards (especially to measure the impact of offensive players), but when you are talking about pure defensive defenceman, it should be taken with a huge grain of salt. Pretty obvious that when a guy like Murray is on the ice, the team is less likely to generate scoring chances than when a Markov and/or a Subban is out there. And they'll never be able to measure how many forwards are more likely to shy away from the front of the net - or be more fearful to carry the puck into the zone - with a guy like Murray roaming around. Add Emelin in 3-4 weeks and we'll have that element on 2 pairs. Finally.
- Jun 24, 2012
- 83,853
- 150,981
An argument can be made in favor of Murray as a 6th D, in general. Third pairing guys typically face the 3rd and 4th opposition lines, which usually feature more physical and larger-sized players.
Big fan of Murray.
Always been a fan of the guy. It's funny to see guys overhere saying good thing about Murray when they were bashing him ealier (too slow, too old, yada, yada).
Not to worry, there will come a game when Murray's speed ( or lack thereof ) will be the culprit of a bad goal... and the bashers will be back in abundance.
JustAHabFan
Registered User
- Apr 8, 2008
- 7,717
- 2,712
Big fan of Murray.
Always been a fan of the guy. It's funny to see guys overhere saying good thing about Murray when they were bashing him ealier (too slow, too old, yada, yada).
He is very very slow. It scared me to death when the forwards from the opposite teams skated toward him. He is fine for boards battle though.
Smokey Thompson
Registered User
If he plays 12-14 minutes a game and lands 2-3 crushing hits, then kudos to him. It feels good to see those hits once and a while.
I was hoping we'd get him at the deadline last year, when I saw what the pens paid I was happy we didn't get him, and when I saw that he came here as a UFA I was even happier.
Sucks that he was injured to start the year but I think he can actually be a significant factor for us in the depth department.
Sucks that he was injured to start the year but I think he can actually be a significant factor for us in the depth department.
MSLs absurd thighs
Formerly Tough Au Lit
- Feb 4, 2013
- 9,424
- 4,280
People shouldn't make assumptions that people who disregard "advanced stats" do it because they can't understand the concept. I'm fairly sure it's because they think it's a complete waste of time, and completely useless to evaluate a player in a team sport.
RussCourtnallsGhost
Registered User
I know it's maybe not the best idea, but I have a burning desire to see Douglas "ManBearPig" Murray fight Chara.
- Dec 2, 2010
- 11,393
- 31
Murray just needs to economize his movement like Gill does. Stay in and just around the crease and you'll very rarely get caught flatfooted.
Well, the fancystats for Murray say this: when he's on the ice 5-on-5, the Habs bleed shots against, they bleed chances against, and they do little to nothing good offensively.
He hits hard, but the available data suggests that he's not good at actual defense. Now two games is an extremely small sample, but it's been a while since I've seen a statline that looked quite this dismal. In his defense, the Habs' current fourth line is also abysmal so he might not be getting any help there then.
Still, he whole "bleeds scoring chances" isn't exactly the most desirable characteristic for a defensive defenseman. And needless to say his offensive contribution is practically nil. Perhaps this is one of the reason he only played 26:21 over his two games, which is a single slightly busy game for Subban or Markov.
So far, the data makes him look like he's exactly as advertised: a Komisarek type, impressive hitter, but ineffective defender. And the numbers certainly don't challenge my initial assessment that he's not a NHL player.
It's very important not to confuse hitting with defense. Hitting is not bad, it can often be a very useful tool for defense (see: Emelin, Alexei), but conversely a guy who hits a lot is not necessarily an effective defender.
This is exactly where fancystats are useful: to help us look past the eye-popping hits that stick to the mind, and look at whether a guy's actually being effective where it matters. And to me, a defensive defenseman's role is to prevent goals against, which is best done by preventing scoring chances.
Hopefully Emelin gets healthy soon and the Habs can ice a defenseman who is a hard hitter and effective.
Camio
Registered User
- Oct 19, 2013
- 641
- 0
What if the Habs had signed a Diaz/Spacek (another no-contact) type Dman instead of Murray? People would be complaining about lack of size, this and that.
Now, they got someone, a 6th Dman, who's got size. Now some will complain the Habs arent as effective on offense when he's on the ice compared to when the 1st pairing is?
Murray will be handy on the 3rd pairing vs a quite a few teams in the division Habs are in.
Now, they got someone, a 6th Dman, who's got size. Now some will complain the Habs arent as effective on offense when he's on the ice compared to when the 1st pairing is?
Murray will be handy on the 3rd pairing vs a quite a few teams in the division Habs are in.
It's almost as if a community of fans are made up of different people with different opinions. Shocker.
Camio
Registered User
- Oct 19, 2013
- 641
- 0
But expecting a 6th Dman, signed for cheap, who's on the downside of his carrer, to be effective all-around?
Its like complaining that White isnt as effective on the offense as Plekanec is.
There's a difference between expecting an NHL defenseman to be effective and expecting him to not be a black hole.
this is not a question of defense vs. offense. It's a question of being good enough in your own zone to allow your other players to push the puck in the other direction. For all his strength and hitting, Murray did not help the habs at all last night. They were caught in their own zone quite a bit with him on the ice and had a disproportionately high amount of scoring chances against, and it's not like he was being matched against top opposition, either. He also wasn't tired from being overworked. The only legitimate excuse is that he's still recovering from his injury.
You don't need advanced stats to see that Murray wasn't effective last night. Just eyeballs.
Fancystats attempt to be an unbiased representation of what happens on the ice, and may be indicators of 'good' team play. However, the model to which fancystats apply does not accurately represent all facets of hockey including hitting, momentum, aggressiveness on the ice, etc. Like it or not, there's an important mental component to hockey that is about perception of your team and the opponent's team.
The Habs have a reputation out there, and it's that due to their small forward group, they are soft and easily pushed around. Same goes for the blueline with the exception of PK and Emelin. I think this reputation does lead to other teams taking more liberties with the Habs and playing with far more confidence and aggressiveness out on the ice. Having guys like Murray and Emelin (and Prust and Parros) will make other players question such an approach to playing against the Habs.
Lars Eller and Louis Leblanc said that the way they play depends almost entirely on confidence (I'm paraphrasing). Will a team knowing its Fenwick and Corsi give it the confidence to play better? No, and that's where leadership and the ability to stand up for your team and teammates comes in, and is therefore where guys like Murray and Prust come in.
Camio
Registered User
- Oct 19, 2013
- 641
- 0
You're expecting Murray, who missed time because of an injury, missed TC, was never an offensive/mobile Dman, is gonna comeback and light it up? Gill surely wasnt the cutest Dman to watch. he was effective in the role he had tho.
Time will tell if Murray can fill a role efficiently on the 3rd pair. His 2 first games, while not being great, werent as bad as we could've expected. Remember Gill start of seaons? Those were awful. Murray surely looked better than that.
