Douglas Murray: What a hit!

Sorinth

Registered User
Jan 18, 2013
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1- Murray's microstats, over that small sample of two games, have been considerably worse than merely "mediocre". I've rarely seen such negative statlines.

2- It's not necessarily the case that Murray's micros should be fine if they were 'mediocre'. No one's expecting him to be PK Subban, but Subban doesn't just push the play the right way; he does so against top opposition. Murray is only asked to play against the bottom of opposing lineups. If he were a good bottom-pairing guy, he would be able to outplay opposing fourth-liners and third-pairing defensemen. Right now he's getting murdered by them.

In other words: no one's asking him to hold out against Tyler Seguin. He's not getting pasted by Tyler Seguin because he doesn't play against Tyler Seguin. He's asked to deal with Shawn Horcoff. And he gets pasted.



I'm fine with having depth players, but even depth players at the NHL level should be better than Murray. There were defensemen available for cheaper than Murray who are also much better (I keep going back to Tom Gilbert as the ur-example of that). They would have been better options as depth D-men.



I'm tired of this nonsense. The lazy "too small" narrative for those series losses is simply not based on the facts. 2008 Flyers in particular is a pet peeve of mine; I have a series of articles on it in the A Winning Habit archives.

Even if size were a genuine issue, it's plainly silly to attempt to solve this problem with big players who are otherwise liabilities. Just like you can't improve a team with slow foot speed by adding an Olympic speed skater with no puck skills.

2 games is still way too early to try and draw meaningful conclusions from his stat line. I mean I could point out his 1000 on ice save percentage and claim Murray puts so much fear into the opposition that they take weak shots from far out because they are afraid to go to the dirty areas.

Although I agree getting bigger with unskilled players doesn't address our size issue. You seem to completely ignore the benefits of having players that complement each other. You seem to ignore the possibility that the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. And someone who brings little besides physicality can be an important part of that whole.
 

Athletique_Canadien

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Dec 13, 2005
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Halifax, NS
A wall is percieved to be a strong defensive structure. But its passive and no active threat to its opponent, and easily circumvented by an enemy with the to scale it at your its leasure. Which is why active defenses are prefereable and the defense of being on the offensive yourself even better.
During both games versus the Rangers & the Stars when opponents were attacking versus Murray, in all cases he kept them within a certain distance. Regardless of Murray's immobility you could see that the forwards were weary of trying to deke him. He's clever which compensates for his lack of speed. At worst Murray will force them to the outside & around the net which is a typical D play utilized by Subban, Gorges & pretty well every other competent D in the league. I don't see the big deal. If Murray plays tonight watch him do this again!
 

Teufelsdreck

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Sep 17, 2005
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I think the D as a whole hasn't been getting enough credit for the team's standing. Just look at the goals against. It hasn't risen to flood levels since Murray began playing.
 

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
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I'll note that while the walls are still standing, the civilizations they guarded are long dead.
Please tell me you're just being facetious.

:help:

1) They point of comparison Murray is doing poorly against on these metircs isn't top level defensemen, its guys like Tinordi and Beaulieau (Rookies/AHL call ups).
Not really. Even if Tinordi is already a better player, it is not necessarily best to leave him in the top-6 over Murray, if it is believed that Tinordi's development will benefit more by dominating 25 minutes a night in Hamilton.

2) If you believe that is really true you could try and show your work and compare games Murray is in the lineup to when he isn't.
Well, our winning percentage with Murray is 100%, however it's currently meaningless given that it's two games, just like Murray's fenwick is meaningless. Even then it would still be close to meaningless as Murray is not the only player coming and going. Desharnais is on his way out of the lineup, and Pacioretty and Emelin are on their way in, so it's conceivable the team will continue to play better with Murray in the lineup, regardless of Murray. That doesn't negate the hypothesis that the team should play better with Murray in the lineup, even when he is off the ice.

But keep in mind that even if the effect you claim is real and not just something you assume is true due to conventional wisdom, for it to be a positive it needs to overcome the opportunity cost of Murray's minutes. Just having a plausible theory isn't a good counter-argument, without supporting evidence all your doing is supplying is conjecture and opinion. You haven't actually done anything to show your position is grounded in reality.

We could do this another way also. If your belief that Murray is having a positive effect is rational it should be falsifiable by contrictory evidence. What manner of evidence would you consider sufficent to get you to believe otherwise?
Science works better than old wives tales and traditions when you have an actual science, like in physics or chemistry. When you're dealing with a situation with more variables, and applying less rigorous methods, such as in quantitative history, most hedge funds, political science, or hockey analytics, you don't really end up with science, just pseudoscience.

As an example, political scientists typically subscribe to "democratic peace theory", that no democracy can go to war with another democracy, they have all sorts of irrational explanations for this, and I've heard some of them tell me that it's the most fundamental law of political science, equivalent to gravity in physics. Of course, that's not actual scientific knowledge, that's just obfuscation, the type of obfuscation that is inevitable when you analyse a complex situation with ultra-simplistic methods and thinking.

What I would need to be convinced that Murray is a terrible player just from the stat sheets is the following (basically to know that the stat sheet is meaningful):

- For hockey Sabremetrics to become a genuinely more robust discipline, to have the effectiveness of physics as opposed to the arrogance of economics. That means numerical methods that cannot be replicated in mere minutes by a freshmen undergraduate majoring in statistics, and a predictive track record that beats pure chance. How good are you at predicting the standings at the start of the year, can you do better than merely assuming a replica of last year's standings? Can you do it 7 times out of 10, with your errors those 3 other times being consistent with your reported theoretical error? If not, you have nothing. Can you predict the art ross race better than merely copying and pasting last year's art ross race, even after giving yourself an injury allowance?
- For the actual underlying numbers hockey Sabremetrics numbers to be more rigorously counted. A missed shot or a hit or a takeaway should mean the same thing in every arena, as opposed to meaning something different, and then being treated as if it means the same.
- For the language from the Sabremetrics community to become more robust and accurate. State "We can find no evidence that size is linked to better play" rather than "there is no evidence linking size to better play", as a generic example.Just because you can't find something, doesn't mean it's not there. As an example from real science, this dark matter experiment couldn't find any dark matter:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.8214
So they state that they could not find anything, rather than that nothing exists. This simple and modest philosophical mindset is crucial to justifying confidence that the people involved know what they're doing, and is not demonstrated by your community.

Until then, hockey sabremetrics are minimally robust, and should be used as supporting rather than primary arguments.

Other than that, when I'm watching the games closely I can often tell where a player is going prior to the stats experts. For example, I could see that Desharnais was not the real McCoy as early as 2012, even during his miracle season, in spite of the fact that all of his stats indicated that he was in fact the real mccoy. I watched the games and I saw that he was weak on the puck and easily lost the puck. Yet he had good takeaway/giveaway numbers at the time, probably due to the stat being unreliable. There is also the fact that he benefited from having two huge wingers, with "size" usually showing no correlation with anything in most hockey stats. Similarly, if Murray is in the 1st or 2nd percentiles as you and mathman imply, then it should be obvious from pure viewing.

ETA: None of this is to argue that Sabremetrics is a waste of time. It's not, but hockey is a complex game with a lot of mutually-interactive parts, unlike baseball. If people keep pouring over data, it's entirely conceivable that the these methods could become as powerful as currently claimed within the next 30 years. There is no easy road to science, but the first step is almost always counting.
 
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DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
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In other words: no one's asking him to hold out against Tyler Seguin. He's not getting pasted by Tyler Seguin because he doesn't play against Tyler Seguin. He's asked to deal with Shawn Horcoff. And he gets pasted.
But you don't know that he's been excessively pasted. There is no reliable metric for shot quality, even if there is a stat called "shot quality index".

I'm tired of this nonsense. The lazy "too small" narrative for those series losses is simply not based on the facts. 2008 Flyers in particular is a pet peeve of mine; I have a series of articles on it in the A Winning Habit archives.
I'm not saying that size was the only factor in those series.
The worst case was Philadelphia 2010. We just couldn't get good scoring chances.

Even if size were a genuine issue, it's plainly silly to attempt to solve this problem with big players who are otherwise liabilities. Just like you can't improve a team with slow foot speed by adding an Olympic speed skater with no puck skills.
You take size where you can, the team is not going to be made tough in a year. I don't expect Murray to still be here in 2 years, when Tinordi and Beaulieu will hopefully be good players. But he was needed now, because we had one of the smallest d-corps in the league last year, and it got smaller with the Emelin injury, and we play in the toughest division.
 

RealityBytes

Trash Remover
Feb 11, 2013
2,955
408
Well, after reading these last few posts, I won't copy them but will add my two cents.

Murray is slow and has some negatives as an individual player, but it is a team game and even though doubtful, he may just supply some balancing factor with/for his team mates. I won't make the call on him till after I see him in a few games.

Interesting point about Desharnais, because that's what I am seeing to some extent in Tinordi. It was especially during the 2nd game, the Calgary game where he was out of position and was knocked over three times. I don't think he will be that player Hab's fans hope he will be. Still, this is only speculation and he may have a successful comeback after spending some time in the minors.
 

Athletique_Canadien

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Dec 13, 2005
1,900
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Halifax, NS
I'm still confused why we are arguing over a plug player in Murray (Emelin out) that will do his #5 or #6 job relatively well for 1.5 million dollars who IS STILL a possible D lock for Sweden in Sochi.

:help:
 

Hoople

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
16,193
121
Many, many people will be glued to their TV's and computer screens, watching and waiting for the first goal to be scored when Murray is on the ice.

It may be tonight. Or it may be Saturday night. But it will happen. Some team is going to score a goal with Murray on the ice.

The Bashing Activator Devices are fully charged and ready for use.
 

overlords

#DefundCBC
Aug 16, 2008
31,750
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The City
Many, many people will be glued to their TV's and computer screens, watching and waiting for the first goal to be scored when Murray is on the ice.

It may be tonight. Or it may be Saturday night. But it will happen. Some team is going to score a goal with Murray on the ice.

The Bashing Activator Buttons are fully charged and ready for use.

I'm not sure why you keep saying this. Enough have already said that he didn't play well, and no goals were scored. You can play very well and get lit up. You can play like garbage and get lucky.

If he isn't to blame for a goal, he isn't to blame, and that's fine. I'm sure there will be enough blame to go around with the Mouillon pairing around.
 

Wats

Error 520
Mar 8, 2006
42,013
6,683
I think he'll look more NHL competent with Diaz as his partner as opposed to Boullion.

Gorges - Subban
Markov - Emelin
Murray - Diaz

Emelin could really balance out the D in a big way.
 

Athletique_Canadien

Registered User
Dec 13, 2005
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Halifax, NS
This is the problem. He can't.
And yes, Olympic ice is bigger. Swedish Olympic hockey are drunk I guess :sarcasm:

Murray is a tracking defenseman & rarely gets caught. People are complining about the penalty against Kreider? :facepalm: Kreider was pestering Gallagher. Murray saw he was possibly going to get the puck so Murray hit him. That's what a big guy protector player does. Chris Neil is this type of player who often takes penalties too. Yes one is a D & the other a forward but if someone is pestering Conacher & Neil takes care of business do Sens fans freak? We can't have the Kreider's of the world pushing around Gallagher!

Murray's strength is that he has very above average "tracking" skills when identifying attackers & what move they will make. His anticipation & adaptation is also very above average. He also (like these types of players do) utilizes when a player is trapped (surrounded by other Habs thus boxed in) & goes to the only way out. BAM!

But yeah, let's beat up on Murray some more. We won the 2 games he played in. You detractors should go troll the Sharks board & start a thread about how terrible Murray is. I'm sure the moderator would let the thread run so Shark's fans could laugh at us!
 

Hoople

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
16,193
121
I'm not sure why you keep saying this. Enough have already said that he didn't play well, and no goals were scored. You can play very well and get lit up. You can play like garbage and get lucky.

If he isn't to blame for a goal, he isn't to blame, and that's fine. I'm sure there will be enough blame to go around with the Mouillon pairing around.

I've been posting here long enough to know what's about to happen after that first goal scored while he is on the ice.

Dont you remember when White took a penalty and Buffalo ended up winning the game when Ott barreled over Price and the puck crossed the line? Scream at Ott for being a punk tool? Hell no. Blame White for being in the penalty box when the Sabres scored a goal to cut the lead to one.

Same story. Parros will be ripped soon enough as well.

A vocal minority still does not see a need for physical players who stand up for their teammates.
 

Athletique_Canadien

Registered User
Dec 13, 2005
1,900
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Halifax, NS
Trivia - October 29th, 2013 - Where did the puck end up going after the big hit on Lane MacDermid & who got off a nice shot (heavy) albeit blocked?

Hint: It's not Carey Price :laugh:
 

Athletique_Canadien

Registered User
Dec 13, 2005
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Halifax, NS
A vocal minority still does not see a need for physical players who stand up for their teammates.
Meh, penalties & boneheads are going to happen. It's a game of mistakes. Retaliatory penalties always are boneheaded. So is too many men on the ice, or hooking, or boarding, or high sticking, or interference. And, your referencing a play involving Ott, White & Price to explain a possible future scenario? Now I'm confused. Hockey is about as predictable as predicting someone forgetting to put the pucks in the freezer & the Stanley Cup winner is a warm bouncing puck.
 

Hoople

Registered User
Mar 7, 2011
16,193
121
Meh, penalties & boneheads are going to happen. It's a game of mistakes. Retaliatory penalties always are boneheaded. So is too many men on the ice, or hooking, or boarding, or high sticking, or interference. And, your referencing a play involving Ott, White & Price to explain a possible future scenario? Now I'm confused. Hockey is about as predictable as predicting someone forgetting to put the pucks in the freezer & the Stanley Cup winner is a warm bouncing puck.

I'll say it a little more clearly then.

White will get (was already) blamed for a loss if a team scores while he is in the penalty box. So will Parros. So will Murray.

Eller, Galchenyuk, Gallagher will not get blamed for a loss if a team scores while they are in the penalty box.

Its just the way it is for some fans here.
 

Athletique_Canadien

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Dec 13, 2005
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Halifax, NS
I'll say it a little more clearly then.

White will get (was already) blamed for a loss if a team scores while he is in the penalty box. So will Parros. So will Murray.

Eller, Galchenyuk, Gallagher will not get blamed for a loss if a team scores while they are in the penalty box.

Its just the way it is for some fans here.
What does one do though? Trevor Stienburg taught me a valuable lesson when I met him as a kid. I asked why do bad things happen & gave him examples of bad decisions or bad calls and scenarios. He told me, "That's the way it goes". He also explained that as a player or a fan that's almost rule one. Just ask the 1999 Buffalo Sabres.

You're probably right that they will get called & we get lit up but what is the alternative? Maybe tonight we'll get the refs from the Columbus game & Subban can sit for sneezing on someone :laugh:
 

overlords

#DefundCBC
Aug 16, 2008
31,750
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The City
I'll say it a little more clearly then.

White will get (was already) blamed for a loss if a team scores while he is in the penalty box. So will Parros. So will Murray.

Eller, Galchenyuk, Gallagher will not get blamed for a loss if a team scores while they are in the penalty box.

Its just the way it is for some fans here.

I guess the feeling is that those other players actually positively influence the game more often than not. White is a good 4th liner, imo. I think in his case it just got to be a bit ridiculous with the penalties he kept taking.

I do remember eller getting blamed for a loss sometime last year for a giveaway in the dzone as he was starting the rush. Subban has been blamed (at least by the media/coaching staff and partly the fanbase) for a loss already, and he's our best player.

If you're going to psych yourself up for when people start trashing on some of those guys for losing us a game, that's fine, but to do it because you think others have some huge bias against players because they're 'tougher' players is ridiculous. They're cost us some goals because they're just not good players. Punching people won't offset that.


On the other hand, I remember reading articles on just how awful Mcgrattan is, and how we should be thankful that Parros is one of the least ****** heavies in the league. :laugh:
 

Et le But

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Nov 28, 2010
20,473
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New York
On the other hand, I remember reading articles on just how awful Mcgrattan is, and how we should be thankful that Parros is one of the least ****** heavies in the league. :laugh:

Parros was absurdly bad last year, as in standing out by goon standards bad, but it was on the Panthers. He looked competent in his one game this year.

Anyway I don't want to jump into this debate, Murray is very clearly washed up, but he fits a narrative and so will get defended far more than any regular plug. I'm not going to panic about him being in the lineup though, because he's here to play physical in limited minutes and that's what he will do. Without looking at just how bad the numbers are, watching him he clearly has very little ability left to play hockey but seems to at least make decent decisions.
 

Athletique_Canadien

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Dec 13, 2005
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Halifax, NS
There's a game coming up right now to further critique Murray. One thing he did against the Rangers was to pinch on a dump in & back off. Rangers defenders were aware of this but the cool thing was it led to errant passes. Maybe Murray will pressure the opposition in to making errant passes. He also did this in the neutral zone. Look for this in his game tonight should Therrien wish for him to utilize it

If people want to debate him they should really focus on #6 for the Habs tonight with their impartial hats on.

And maybe I'm totally wrong & it is a disaster...we'll see.

I doubt it though. I did watch the Pens-Isles series last spring
 

Talks to Goalposts

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Apr 8, 2011
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371
Edmonton
Please tell me you're just being facetious.

:help:


Not really. Even if Tinordi is already a better player, it is not necessarily best to leave him in the top-6 over Murray, if it is believed that Tinordi's development will benefit more by dominating 25 minutes a night in Hamilton.


Well, our winning percentage with Murray is 100%, however it's currently meaningless given that it's two games, just like Murray's fenwick is meaningless. Even then it would still be close to meaningless as Murray is not the only player coming and going. Desharnais is on his way out of the lineup, and Pacioretty and Emelin are on their way in, so it's conceivable the team will continue to play better with Murray in the lineup, regardless of Murray. That doesn't negate the hypothesis that the team should play better with Murray in the lineup, even when he is off the ice.


Science works better than old wives tales and traditions when you have an actual science, like in physics or chemistry. When you're dealing with a situation with more variables, and applying less rigorous methods, such as in quantitative history, most hedge funds, political science, or hockey analytics, you don't really end up with science, just pseudoscience.

As an example, political scientists typically subscribe to "democratic peace theory", that no democracy can go to war with another democracy, they have all sorts of irrational explanations for this, and I've heard some of them tell me that it's the most fundamental law of political science, equivalent to gravity in physics. Of course, that's not actual scientific knowledge, that's just obfuscation, the type of obfuscation that is inevitable when you analyse a complex situation with ultra-simplistic methods and thinking.

What I would need to be convinced that Murray is a terrible player just from the stat sheets is the following (basically to know that the stat sheet is meaningful):

- For hockey Sabremetrics to become a genuinely more robust discipline, to have the effectiveness of physics as opposed to the arrogance of economics. That means numerical methods that cannot be replicated in mere minutes by a freshmen undergraduate majoring in statistics, and a predictive track record that beats pure chance. How good are you at predicting the standings at the start of the year, can you do better than merely assuming a replica of last year's standings? Can you do it 7 times out of 10, with your errors those 3 other times being consistent with your reported theoretical error? If not, you have nothing. Can you predict the art ross race better than merely copying and pasting last year's art ross race, even after giving yourself an injury allowance?
- For the actual underlying numbers hockey Sabremetrics numbers to be more rigorously counted. A missed shot or a hit or a takeaway should mean the same thing in every arena, as opposed to meaning something different, and then being treated as if it means the same.
- For the language from the Sabremetrics community to become more robust and accurate. State "We can find no evidence that size is linked to better play" rather than "there is no evidence linking size to better play", as a generic example.Just because you can't find something, doesn't mean it's not there. As an example from real science, this dark matter experiment couldn't find any dark matter:
http://arxiv.org/abs/1310.8214
So they state that they could not find anything, rather than that nothing exists. This simple and modest philosophical mindset is crucial to justifying confidence that the people involved know what they're doing, and is not demonstrated by your community.

Until then, hockey sabremetrics are minimally robust, and should be used as supporting rather than primary arguments.

Other than that, when I'm watching the games closely I can often tell where a player is going prior to the stats experts. For example, I could see that Desharnais was not the real McCoy as early as 2012, even during his miracle season, in spite of the fact that all of his stats indicated that he was in fact the real mccoy. I watched the games and I saw that he was weak on the puck and easily lost the puck. Yet he had good takeaway/giveaway numbers at the time, probably due to the stat being unreliable. There is also the fact that he benefited from having two huge wingers, with "size" usually showing no correlation with anything in most hockey stats. Similarly, if Murray is in the 1st or 2nd percentiles as you and mathman imply, then it should be obvious from pure viewing.

ETA: None of this is to argue that Sabremetrics is a waste of time. It's not, but hockey is a complex game with a lot of mutually-interactive parts, unlike baseball. If people keep pouring over data, it's entirely conceivable that the these methods could become as powerful as currently claimed within the next 30 years. There is no easy road to science, but the first step is almost always counting.

The city wall became obsolete military technology right at the begining of the firepower revolution. Cultures that relied on it either adapted away from passive defenses or died. The castle which relied on walls got replaced by the starfort which relied on guns and the world never went back. This can be seen often in military history as the limitation of passive defenses get exposed. A good recent example is how modern warships have moved away from heavily armoured hulls towards active counter-measures.

That's some hilarious revisionist history on Desharnais when it was the numbers guys saying he was merely a product of two winger having terrific seasons and were shouted down here by "watch the game" types. People who are serious about this stuff generally agree that point totals are heavily context related and take/giveaways counts are useless and were looking at other things on Desharnais. So congratulations at coming to exactly the same conclusion.

I ask a simple question about what it will take to change your mind because I have neither the time nor inclination to get into another internet slap fight here going up and down every point. So tell me what kind of evidence you'd consider admissable and what would it take to change you mind on this issue and if its something I can reasonably do I'll try and accomodate you. If not I really don't care enough to try to change your mind because it sounds like a big waste of everyones time. If you don't want numbers thats fine, but is hard to a good cost benefit analysis without the best method to show that one thing is bigger than another.

In this case I'd say the issue with Murray is obvious from watching, your just putting to much wieght on the aspects that he is still good at and not enough on the aspects where he is bad. He's obviously below NHL replacement level at playing with the puck. His supporters are glossing over this in favour of focusing on his hitting. What is in contention is the degree of relative value should be placed on these elements of Murray's game.
 

DAChampion

Registered User
May 28, 2011
29,804
20,960
OK Talk to Goalposts, I will provide my benchmark for success for Murray.

1) Given that he is a sixth defensemen in a 7 defensemen league and being paid like one in both cap hit and term, his expected performance based on core metrics is between the 14th and 28th percentiles of NHL dmen, where you can adjust the numbers slightly if you disagree with the lazy 7 dmen approximation I'm making :) As such, Murray should converge to 21st percentile once a large sample size is reached, and if he does so he will be "average" for his role. A respectable basket of stats should be used, and we should recognise that the margin error itself will be a few percentage points.

2) He needs to contribute something else effectively that is not captured by core stats. Marc-Andre Bergeron resurrected our power play, and later Thomas Kaberle did so as well but not to the same extent. Hal Gill ate up minutes on the penalty kill very effectively. For Murray, he can provide something our team is missing, he can provide devastating hits and he can win some fights and stand up for teammates.

The city wall became obsolete military technology right at the begining of the firepower revolution. Cultures that relied on it either adapted away from passive defenses or died. The castle which relied on walls got replaced by the starfort which relied on guns and the world never went back. This can be seen often in military history as the limitation of passive defenses get exposed. A good recent example is how modern warships have moved away from heavily armoured hulls towards active counter-measures.
Walls have become obsolete, but not passive defense, and anyway this analogy sucks because NHL teams have not invented gunpowder or any equivalent.
 

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