News Article: Dougie Hamilton vs. Seth Jones

[Jack Straw]

We should get that mediocre scorer Sanheim out of here.


There have been 27 Defenseman who have at least 3500 TOI from the beginning of the 2018-2019 season through the 2020-2021 Season.



5v5 Goals/60: .25 (tied for 9th w/ Provorov)
5v5 Primary Assists/60: .41 (tied for 7th)
5v5 Points/60: 1.00 (9th)



He drives play (offensively & otherwise). Let’s get this mediocrity out of here though!

 

[TB87]

I feel like this post needs a broken image, Ted.

*Fixed with a broken image*

 

[Starat327]

*Fixed with a broken image*

<3

 

[Tripod]

I do wonder....why in basketball is +/- gaining more traction as an important, usable stat?

Honest question to the basketball guys.

 

[deadhead]

I do wonder....why in basketball is +/- gaining more traction as an important, usable stat?

Honest question to the basketball guys.

Much larger sample since most basketball possessions result in scoring.

+/- would be meaningful in the NHL over a 3-4 year period when other factors tend to even out, but that's so long a stretch it would only apply to a few players as most are either improving, declining or out of the league. And you'd have to factor in the team's performance over the period.

Even then, matchups are crucial in the NBA, bench players tend to spend a lot of time playing against other bench players.

 

[Tripod]

Much larger sample since most basketball possessions result in scoring.

+/- would be meaningful in the NHL over a 3-4 year period when other factors tend to even out, but that's so long a stretch it would only apply to a few players as most are either improving, declining or out of the league. And you'd have to factor in the team's performance over the period.

Even then, matchups are crucial in the NBA, bench players tend to spend a lot of time playing against other bench players.

makes sense with the more scoring aspect.

 

[Starat327]

makes sense with the more scoring aspect.

It's also less likely to be misrepresented because most basketball players- I believe - play for long stretches of the game vs 15-30 second power shifts. The longer you are actually playing without interruption, the easier that stat becomes to correlate to actual performance as opposed to fluke instances like hopping over the boards at the wrong time.

 

[Tripod]

It's also less likely to be misrepresented because most basketball players- I believe - play for long stretches of the game vs 15-30 second power shifts. The longer you are actually playing without interruption, the easier that stat becomes to correlate to actual performance as opposed to fluke instances like hopping over the boards at the wrong time.

that makes sense too.

 

[flyerslducks]

I think we'll end up overpaying for Larsson personally

ya either him or savard are my picks. sigh

 

[Striiker]

It's also less likely to be misrepresented because most basketball players- I believe - play for long stretches of the game vs 15-30 second power shifts. The longer you are actually playing without interruption, the easier that stat becomes to correlate to actual performance as opposed to fluke instances like hopping over the boards at the wrong time.

And there’s also no goalies, who drastically impact the end result, both for and against you. As we saw with Sanheim and Patrick’s +/- this past year.

If you take a shot in basketball, it’s completely up to you if it goes in or not (assuming it’s not blocked). Nothing interferes once it leaves your hand.

In hockey, a perfect shot can interrupted by things the shooter has no control over once it leaves his stick. It could be deflected by a teammate, deflected by an opponent, or saved by the goalie.

And the opposite is true when in the defensive zone. A perfect defensive play can still end up in the back of the net due to shit goaltending, deflections, whatever.

That’s why we judge players by their process, not exclusively their end result. There’s just too much randomness in the sport that individuals can’t control.

 

[Rebels57]

I think we'll end up overpaying for Larsson personally

All signs still point to Larsson re-signing with Edmonton.

Why come here when you can stay in Edmonton and play with McDavid?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

If you think CF and +/- are a hill worth dying on then you obviously don't understand stats either. Always funny to see people rail about stuff they don't understand.

Nobody uses those stats for meaningful discussion. It's not a case of "oh those don't count now," those don't get used like that period.

I try to include the eye test as part of context every time. It always matters with me. The processes should match the numbers. What's hard to figure out? Why, it's almost like you have no idea what you're talking about, which makes the smug condescension quite humorous.

A day or two ago you cited possession metrics as “confirmation” of your opinion that Jones was the third best defenseman on Columbus.

 

[Beef Invictus]

A day or two ago you cited possession metrics as “confirmation” of your opinion that Jones was the third best defenseman on Columbus.

No I did not. You are thinking of someone else.

Nor would I use possession metrics alone, because that's silly.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

No I did not. You are thinking of someone else.

Nor would I use possession metrics alone, because that's silly.

You cited “measurables” as “confirm”ing your opinion.

 

[Curufinwe]

Signing Hamilton to 7 x $9m as a UFA seems obviously better than trading assets for Jones them extending him for 8 x $ 9m, or even 8 x $8m. Even the biggest Jones fan must worry what he’ll be like in 2030.

I’m mostly against trading picks to move useful players with term who are currently hard to move because of the flat cap, but if they had to attach a 2nd to Ghost or JvR or Voracek to make room for Hamilton, that’s much cheaper than trading for Jones.

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

And there’s also no goalies, who drastically impact the end result, both for and against you. As we saw with Sanheim and Patrick’s +/- this past year.

If you take a shot in basketball, it’s completely up to you if it goes in or not (assuming it’s not blocked). Nothing interferes once it leaves your hand.

In hockey, a perfect shot can interrupted by things the shooter has no control over once it leaves his stick. It could be deflected by a teammate, deflected by an opponent, or saved by the goalie.

And the opposite is true when in the defensive zone. A perfect defensive play can still end up in the back of the net due to shit goaltending, deflections, whatever.

That’s why we judge players by their process, not exclusively their end result. There’s just too much randomness in the sport that individuals can’t control.

Not really directly related, but this post reminded me of something @tarheelhockey used to do on the Canes board. He would go back and watch the highlights of each game, and assign each player a 'qualitative' +/- based on the even strength goals scored. So if a goalie lets in a beach ball shot from center ice, nobody gets a minus. Or if Gus does what he did last night, only he gets a minus. It was very interesting to follow, but he eventually quit because he's a lazy piece of shit it was a lot of work and quite time consuming. It wasn't perfect since we were only looking at goals scored, but it was a fun little project.

2014-15 Qualitative +/- Ratings

 

[Beef Invictus]

You cited “measurables” as “confirm”ing your opinion.

There are measurables that do more than try and detect possession, aren't there? You're really grasping at straws.

 

[FLYguy3911]

How hard is it to actually read up on and research the stats people constantly rail about? It's pure laziness at this point.

 

[Striiker]

Not really directly related, but this post reminded me of something @tarheelhockey used to do on the Canes board. He would go back and watch the highlights of each game, and assign each player a 'qualitative' +/- based on the even strength goals scored. So if a goalie lets in a beach ball shot from center ice, nobody gets a minus. Or if Gus does what he did last night, only he gets a minus. It was very interesting to follow, but he eventually quit because he's a lazy piece of shit it was a lot of work and quite time consuming. It wasn't perfect since we were only looking at goals scored, but it was a fun little project.

2014-15 Qualitative +/- Ratings

So you’re offering to do this? Wow, that’s really great. Thanks!

 

[Surrounded By Ahos]

So you’re offering to do this? Wow, that’s really great. Thanks!

I would try, but eventually I would have to give Hägg a plus and it would probably make my brain explode.

 

[Magua]

I do wonder....why in basketball is +/- gaining more traction as an important, usable stat?

Honest question to the basketball guys.

Since when is it gaining traction? It's a bad stat for which 100 others can provide more useful information. A stat like that is losing traction, if anything. It's like a results based CF% -- and that stat in a single game sample is just north of useless. It tells you nothing about how anything happened, especially relating to the individual, just that something did.

 

[Tripod]

Since when is it gaining traction? It's a bad stat for which 100 others can provide more useful information. A stat like that is losing traction, if anything. It's like a results based CF% -- and that stat in a single game sample is just north of useless. It tells you nothing about how anything happened, especially relating to the individual, just that something did.

It seems like they are referencing it more and more each game...which I found odd because it was never mentioned before in past years....none that I remember. That's what I was talking about.

 

[Rich Nixon]

Max chaos and max apathy. Respect

I just want to feel something. Anything. Give Holmgren and Clarkie a kilo and let them sit behind the phones again for a weekend, for all I care.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Not really directly related, but this post reminded me of something @tarheelhockey used to do on the Canes board. He would go back and watch the highlights of each game, and assign each player a 'qualitative' +/- based on the even strength goals scored. So if a goalie lets in a beach ball shot from center ice, nobody gets a minus. Or if Gus does what he did last night, only he gets a minus. It was very interesting to follow, but he eventually quit because he's a lazy piece of shit it was a lot of work and quite time consuming. It wasn't perfect since we were only looking at goals scored, but it was a fun little project.

2014-15 Qualitative +/- Ratings

I lol’ed

I would try, but eventually I would have to give Hägg a plus and it would probably make my brain explode.

 

[Beef Invictus]

I lol’ed

When can we expect you to start tabulation