Proposal: Don't Rent....Buy the final core piece.

[Trapper]

Our D isn't nearly as bad as some people seem to think so a centre might make a ton of sense. But why not wait and see if we can pick up Tavares for nothing? It could happen but good luck fitting him in under the cap if we have Weber on the books which is yet another good reason not to give up huge pieces of our future for a veteran with a huge contract.

What is Babcock's wish list? Because it seems more likely that his wish will be granted instead of ours.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

And it doesn't even have to be a dman. Maybe some people think we should trade for another #1C?

that's not a bad idea either tbh. maybe not quite a 1c but a guy like Brassard might be worthwhile

 

[zeke]

Our D isn't nearly as bad as some people seem to think so a centre might make a ton of sense. But why not wait and see if we can pick up Tavares for nothing? It could happen but good luck fitting him in under the cap if we have Weber on the books which is yet another good reason not to give up huge pieces of our future for a veteran with a huge contract.

I'm iffy on whether I want to be the team making Tavares one of the very highest players in hockey longterm. He's good, but I dunno. He wouldn't get as many minutes here, that's for sure. And he's only getting slower. $10-12m is a lotta dough.

And that's even assuming he would a) get to UFA and b) would choose us.

 

[TheCLAM]

You make a deal if it makes sense for the long term, the Leafs are just starting to reap the benefits of a proper rebuild. I don't think the rebuild is done. By the end of the 2018-19 season in all probability JVR, Bozak, Moore, Uncle Leo, Hainsey, Polak and Gardiner are gone. I want the Leafs to be able to add Borgman, Dermott, Liljegren fulltime to go with Rielly and Zaitsev.. Up front Im pretty sure Nylander moves to Centre and the big 3 down the middle are Matthews, Nylander, and Kadri. With JVR, Leo and Nylander gone off the wings we're gonna need Grundstrom, Korshkov, Kapanen and Bracco's of the world to be ready... I still think they need 1 or 2 more good years of drafting.. Centre depth and Defensive depth would be good... Perhaps we will be treated to a good old fashion hockey trade 1 day like Ryan Johansen for Seth Jones... I hope we dont see 2 young guys and 2 1st rounders for a Shea Weber type of deal .... Just my 2 cents

Hainsey is signed for 1 more year. I think he's going to stay

 

[Daisy Jane]

The price would be assisting the Montreal Canadiens in their rebuilding efforts. Too steep for me

 

[ACC1224]

What is Babcock's wish list? Because it seems more likely that his wish will be granted instead of ours.

More likely.

 

[Fogelhund]

Just say no to Weber. Short term gain for long term pain. We really should explore the other possibilities like Doughty and OEL before we consider a disastrous contract like that. Not only that, why help the Habs clean up their mess? If they want to 50% retain ok, let's talk.

Doughty and OEL?

Who will both want 7-8 year contracts, in the 10 + million range.

OEL is a lefty, so... umm, doesn't solve the RHD issue.

But Doughty, signed until he's 38, at 10 + million per... is somehow not a disastrous contract in his late thirties, while Weber's is?

Or are we only obtaining these guys are rentals?

 

[Gary Nylund]

This Weber debate has been interesting. The price is steep and understandably, a lot of people don't like the idea of parting with top picks/prospects. It goes to show how valuable picks/prospects are as currency, I mean wow, you can possibly flip them for an established star like Weber.

Funny to juxtapose this conversation with all these posts from people not wanting to trade JVR for picks/prospects because "what are the chances of these picks/prospects turning into something useful".

Picks/prospects are valuable, 1st round picks and quality prospects and very valuable. And as many of us have pointed out, even if we were to get "only" picks/prospects in return, there's always the possibility of trading them for something else. You know, like we did with the 1st round pick we got for Kessel.

That's all.

 

[Fogelhund]

Personally... my choice is still Tanev.. His acquisition cost shouldn't be as much, he's on a great contract, is great defensively... but yes, gets injured too often, in freak occurrences.

But, I can see a Weber deal too, as a second option. There will be a market for Weber, as he's still a very good D, though the Habs are a tire fire at the moment, so it drags everyone down.

 

[Trapper]

More likely.

Has Babcock specifically stated what he would like to add?
Is it a 3/4 C, another PK winger, a RHD, a player with size?

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm iffy on whether I want to be the team making Tavares one of the very highest players in hockey longterm. He's good, but I dunno. He wouldn't get as many minutes here, that's for sure. And he's only getting slower. $10-12m is a lotta dough.

And that's even assuming he would a) get to UFA and b) would choose us.

Of course we don't know if he'll choose us but if he did, I'd much rather have him then give up our best futures (Liljegren and 1st round picks) for Weber. Like if it was a choice between those two options it's nowhere near close, not for me anyway.

 

[-DeMo-]

I'm pretty sure nobody expects that. I don't remember the numbers but I believe we were a top 3 or so team over the last couple of months last season, I don't see why that can't happen again myself.

if by last couple of months you mean March and April we were 6th and if you include February we were 8th. I simply stated to Rinzler you shouldn't look at a 2-3 week stretch to determine the strength of your team because I would think it's common knowledge your not as good as your hot streaks and your not as bad as the cold one's but somewhere in the middle so the fact that were 8-2 in the last 10 isn't really an indication of our quality. as no team is that good. to which Rinzler said you can look at a 2-3 week period and make decision based on that.

Has the team shown that they don't deserve an upgrade? We all have to face the fact that the better this team gets, the less likely the team will keep prospects and picks around. I'm a Leafs fan, I'll buy into whatever they do more or less, but we have to face reality here. Once the window opens, it's open. Question is, does Lou feel the window has opened? The more they win, the easier that decision is made.

I think everyone agree's that in the coming years we will be moving picks/prospects for rentals nobody is saying differently, what I'm against is blowing our load in year 1 of whats going to be probably a 10 year or more window to win multiple cups, it will be hard to have sustain success without trading some vets for picks/prospects along the way. and I'll answer your question with another have this team proven to be better then Boston/Tampa? because statically there weaker in almost every category. both those 2 score more then us, they keep the puck out of there net more, there goaltenders have played better, when you look at the advance stats both Boston and Tampa have better CF%, GF%, xGF%, were the 4th worst xGA/60 team in the league, Boston and Tampa have better PP's then us, the only thing were really better at then TB is our PK. so where exactly is our advantage vs those 2 teams who likely we need to beat both to have a chance at the cup. when those 2 teams are at there best can we beat them? I don't believe so. so do I believe this team deserves an upgrade? no when your about to be the underdog in round 1 you haven't shown me that your worth giving up a 1st + 2nd + couple of prospects by not selling JVR/Bozak/Komarov, let alone going out and giving up more picks prospects to make a rental addition to the team. your not going to be able to go all in every year you have a chance it's about pick your best chances and going for it then. but trust me I know none of those guys will actually be move doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do.

 

[Trapper]

Of course we don't know if he'll choose us but if he did, I'd much rather have him then give up our best futures (Liljegren and 1st round picks) for Weber. Like if it was a choice between those two options it's nowhere near close, not for me anyway.

I think people are looking too high on the name chart. From OEL to McD, now over to Weber, I think if we acquire someone it won't even be on this boards radar.

 

[ErnieLeafs]

I want nothing to do with Weber. Helping out the Canadiens is not something I can see us doing.

I would rather a move for someone younger. If you're going to spend assets, make it worthwhile.

 

[Fogelhund]

I think people are looking too high on the name chart. From OEL to McD, now over to Weber, I think if we acquire someone it won't even be on this boards radar.

Except this board has tried to trade for just about everyone at some point.

The thing is, I don't think we need any more second pairing, or third pairing D. We need to upgrade the top pairing RHD. So either we have to be prepared to spend the moon, including losing one of Nylander or Marner, or make a purchase of something with warts. OEL/Doughty level costs us a Marner/Nylander. Weber/Tanev comes with warts. Lesser players.. might help our bottom pairing, and are marginal upgrades, if at all.

Tavares would be a great luxury, but I don't think his next contract, and/or cost to trade for him sets us up well long-term. I think improving our D, and a Berglund type 3C benefits us more.

 

[Fogelhund]

I want nothing to do with Weber. Helping out the Canadiens is not something I can see us doing.

I would rather a move for someone younger. If you're going to spend assets, make it worthwhile.

Helping out the Canadiens? Nah, we'd do a market value trade, which really only happens if MTL goes full rebuild... not really helping them out, and we can't look at it, as a trade with rivals, as much as how can we improve ourselves... as far as spending assets, see above.

 

[Razz]

if by last couple of months you mean March and April we were 6th and if you include February we were 8th. I simply stated to Rinzler you shouldn't look at a 2-3 week stretch to determine the strength of your team because I would think it's common knowledge your not as good as your hot streaks and your not as bad as the cold one's but somewhere in the middle so the fact that were 8-2 in the last 10 isn't really an indication of our quality. as no team is that good. to which Rinzler said you can look at a 2-3 week period and make decision based on that.



I think everyone agree's that in the coming years we will be moving picks/prospects for rentals nobody is saying differently, what I'm against is blowing our load in year 1 of whats going to be probably a 10 year or more window to win multiple cups, it will be hard to have sustain success without trading some vets for picks/prospects along the way. and I'll answer your question with another have this team proven to be better then Boston/Tampa? because statically there weaker in almost every category. both those 2 score more then us, they keep the puck out of there net more, there goaltenders have played better, when you look at the advance stats both Boston and Tampa have better CF%, GF%, xGF%, were the 4th worst xGA/60 team in the league, Boston and Tampa have better PP's then us, the only thing were really better at then TB is our PK. so where exactly is our advantage vs those 2 teams who likely we need to beat both to have a chance at the cup. when those 2 teams are at there best can we beat them? I don't believe so. so do I believe this team deserves an upgrade? no when your about to be the underdog in round 1 you haven't shown me that your worth giving up a 1st + 2nd + couple of prospects by not selling JVR/Bozak/Komarov, let alone going out and giving up more picks prospects to make a rental addition to the team. your not going to be able to go all in every year you have a chance it's about pick your best chances and going for it then. but trust me I know none of those guys will actually be move doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do.

Fundamentally I agree with everything you are saying. A more conservative approach would be ideal given the competition and long term success.

However, I always try to take the perspective of Lou and Babcock in situations like this. Ultimately I believe what they are really looking for is that moment when the team comes together and poised for a cup run. Both guys know what that looks like. Once they see it, they will make those moves. My whole point was trying to identify from their perspective an answer to the question: Are they ready to win the cup? Annihilating the competition a full month before the deadline makes it hard to say no (assuming this streak continues).

If they falter and blow a few important games coming up, then yes absolutely stay patient. If the team decides it's time to win now, Lou will not stand in their way.

 

[Gary Nylund]

if by last couple of months you mean March and April we were 6th and if you include February we were 8th. I simply stated to Rinzler you shouldn't look at a 2-3 week stretch to determine the strength of your team because I would think it's common knowledge your not as good as your hot streaks and your not as bad as the cold one's but somewhere in the middle so the fact that were 8-2 in the last 10 isn't really an indication of our quality. as no team is that good. to which Rinzler said you can look at a 2-3 week period and make decision based on that.

I think everyone agree's that in the coming years we will be moving picks/prospects for rentals nobody is saying differently, what I'm against is blowing our load in year 1 of whats going to be probably a 10 year or more window to win multiple cups, it will be hard to have sustain success without trading some vets for picks/prospects along the way. and I'll answer your question with another have this team proven to be better then Boston/Tampa? because statically there weaker in almost every category. both those 2 score more then us, they keep the puck out of there net more, there goaltenders have played better, when you look at the advance stats both Boston and Tampa have better CF%, GF%, xGF%, were the 4th worst xGA/60 team in the league, Boston and Tampa have better PP's then us, the only thing were really better at then TB is our PK. so where exactly is our advantage vs those 2 teams who likely we need to beat both to have a chance at the cup. when those 2 teams are at there best can we beat them? I don't believe so. so do I believe this team deserves an upgrade? no when your about to be the underdog in round 1 you haven't shown me that your worth giving up a 1st + 2nd + couple of prospects by not selling JVR/Bozak/Komarov, let alone going out and giving up more picks prospects to make a rental addition to the team. your not going to be able to go all in every year you have a chance it's about pick your best chances and going for it then. but trust me I know none of those guys will actually be move doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do.

I think Rinzler said a couple of weeks because that's all the time we have until the TDL. It's not a lot of time but it's all we have left.

6th and 8th, thanks. I thought it was better than that, so much for my memory. Still pretty good though.

As far as: what I'm against is blowing our load in year 1 of whats going to be probably a 10 year or more window to win multiple cups and your not going to be able to go all in every year you have a chance it's about pick your best chances and going for it then

I couldn't agree more, I've been preaching that on a daily basis for a long time now. I keep asking people if we keep JVR and co. and that costs a 1st and a few 2nd's, how much are we going to spend next year or the year after than etc. ? We'll be broke in no time. It's all about picking your spots, figuring when is as you said, our best chance is and the idea that our best chance is now when we have to face maybe the top 2 teams in the NHL in the 1st 2 rounds is just plain nutso. We could beat them sure but betting our future on it, no thanks.

I think people are looking too high on the name chart. From OEL to McD, now over to Weber, I think if we acquire someone it won't even be on this boards radar.

I'm 99% sure this is true. I think most people know that and it's all noise mostly, this is why I normally stay away from trade talks.

 

[Buds17]

I think people are looking too high on the name chart. From OEL to McD, now over to Weber, I think if we acquire someone it won't even be on this boards radar.

I'd agree. I expect we'll aim high, in that we'll be in on the big names on the block, but if the ask doesn't align well enough with what we deem expendable, we'll look elsewhere.

 

[ACC1224]

Has Babcock specifically stated what he would like to add?
Is it a 3/4 C, another PK winger, a RHD, a player with size?

I'm sure he has to Lou Lam.

I think people are looking too high on the name chart. From OEL to McD, now over to Weber, I think if we acquire someone it won't even be on this boards radar.

No doubt. This is nothing more than time wasting fantasy discussion.

 

[realgoodleafs]

how many teams have been able to sign that stud dman as a UFA?

None of the recent cup winners have traded for their stud dman. Chara is the only example of one who wasn't drafted and he was a UFA.

Nobody is giving up a #1 dman for Liljegren and a 1st.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I couldn't agree more, I've been preaching that on a daily basis for a long time now. I keep asking people if we keep JVR and co. and that costs a 1st and a few 2nd's, how much are we going to spend next year or the year after than etc. ? We'll be broke in no time. It's all about picking your spots, figuring when is as you said, our best chance is and the idea that our best chance is now when we have to face maybe the top 2 teams in the NHL in the 1st 2 rounds is just plain nutso. We could beat them sure but betting our future on it, no thanks.

Yeah. At the same time, you want to give every chance a try. If we can make cost-effective improvements to the team to neutralize some weak spot this year, then that might be worth it. Accelerating the time table also works, in the sense that we pay a large load of assets for a long-term piece that can help us right away.

You and I share the same position here. We want to maximize our chances over the larger picture. And bleeding assets has a high likely hood of gutting our chances towards the end of our window. At the same time, missed opportunities shouldn't be discounted. If we hurt our roster enough that we can't compete against the top teams this year, then that's quite a sizable bite out of our chances over the larger picture as well.

That's why we have to worry that if JVR goes, how will our depth scoring and PP fair? We already have issues with the latter, what if losing JVR makes the first unit lose their dynamic? I'm not sure we can replace what he does there.

It all comes down to value for me. If the return for JVR hover around a 1st plus something minor, then I might just keep him. If we get offered Fabbro, or some other high-end RHD prospect? It just might be worth the risk.

It's also about not only the quality of the pool, but also the stage it's in. Right now we are brimming with forward prospects that are ready to make an impact from now to maybe two seasons from now. We will not be able to utilize all of that, so it makes sense to use it.

Getting assets back is important. One thing I think we should consider is that instead of selling off pieces that might be hard to replace, we could sell surplus pieces we have no room for. Look at Korshkov/Grundström/Johnsson/Leivo for example. They'll be competing for one, maybe two spots. A team that wants NHL ready young talent might pay a very good pick for one of them. With good drafting, we can elongate the period where we have quality depth, instead of having a logjam and losing guys cheap because teams know they are waiver-eligible.

Just some thoughts. It's not an easy situation, this.

 

[Razz]

I'm sure he has to Lou Lam.

No doubt. This is nothing more than time wasting fantasy discussion.

Knowing Babcock, his wish list are probably two things:

1. Highly competitive heavy playing RHD
2. #4C with shutdown and scoring upside

It's no secret that he heavily favours left and right handed shots together and does not like his options at the #4 hole.

 

[ACC1224]

Knowing Babcock, his wish list are probably two things:

1. Highly competitive heavy playing RHD
2. #4C with shutdown and scoring upside

It's no secret that he heavily favours left and right handed shots together and does not like his options at the #4 hole.

Those are good guesses, IMO.

 

[Liminality]

I don't know to be truthful.

It's tough cause they either retain more and we give more assets or retain less but we're already too tight for resigning in 2019/20. I think the contract is just too hard to manage with our roster and not worth the headache. Or someone smart like Lou has it more planned out.

I'd still rather go after someone younger and more likely to grow with this core.