Speculation: Don’t trade Gaudreau

[26Mats]

He's not a play driver down the middle. That's the primary role of a center. If your center isn't driving play with the open ice that this position afford them, then the team's transition game becomes flawed on a fundamental level, which is our greatest team issue.



lol wut, where'd you hear that?

Sean Monahan is just another Tyler Bozak type who put up good numbers playing with star wingers.

Like Bozak, he's not a top two line centre on a team with championship aspirations. Maybe a 3C (Bozak was 3C on the Blues last year), though I'd rather have a guy like Derek Ryan as a 3C

What's wrong with Gaudreau driving play from the wing? Do you need two play drivers on the same line?

We had Radulov drive the play from the wing. The year he started with Pacioretty on the other wing, Pacioretty started off the year, without playing with Radulov, in a huge slump. They switched him to play with Radulov at about the 15 to 20 game mark. Pacioretty ended up with 35 goals and tied his then career high with 67 points - again after starting the year in a huge slump.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

What's wrong with Gaudreau driving play from the wing?

Driving play from the wing simply doesn't work when checking gets tight. There just isn't space because of how breakouts work. Wingers are generally stationary on most breakouts and positioned close to the boards. So a guy like Gaudreau only has a few options - hope his centre can handle the breakout, or leak out early and hope a stretch pass hits him. Neither of these are high percentage plays if Sean Monahan is his centre. The centre has a lot more ice to support his defensemen, support his wingers, execute the breakout, and then handle the puck on the zone entry. To me the prototypical centre was Pavel Datsyuk, and Sean Monahan is nothing like him.

It might work in November and December, when teams are still playing sloppy run and gun hockey. But come February, March, April, May, there just isn't space for someone like Gaudreau to be the primary puck carrier. I love Gaudreau. He needs a centre. That's all there is to it. That or we would need to actually convert him to a centre so he has the free ice to operate.

Do you need two play drivers on the same line?

Unless you have Nathan MacKinnon on your top line, yes. But again, Nathan MacKinnon is a playdriving centre, not a winger.

 

[26Mats]

Driving play from the wing simply doesn't work when checking gets tight. There just isn't space because of how breakouts work. Wingers are generally stationary on most breakouts and positioned close to the boards. So a guy like Gaudreau only has a few options - hope his centre can handle the breakout, or leak out early and hope a stretch pass hits him. Neither of these are high percentage plays if Sean Monahan is his centre. The centre has a lot more ice to support his defensemen, support his wingers, execute the breakout, and then handle the puck on the zone entry. To me the prototypical centre was Pavel Datsyuk, and Sean Monahan is nothing like him.

It might work in November and December, when teams are still playing sloppy run and gun hockey. But come February, March, April, May, there just isn't space for someone like Gaudreau to be the primary puck carrier. I love Gaudreau. He needs a centre. That's all there is to it. That or we would need to actually convert him to a centre so he has the free ice to operate.



Unless you have Nathan MacKinnon on your top line, yes. But again, Nathan MacKinnon is a playdriving centre, not a winger.

How would Monahan's game translate to the wing position?

Asking for a friend.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

How would Monahan's game translate to the wing position?

Asking for a friend.

Pretty well. He protects the puck well along the boards, has great hands, and a knack for getting open. Likes to slow down the tempo. Good defensive instincts as a winger too.


Of course he can take faceoffs and support down low. I think he could score 50 goals from the right wing with a nice playmaking centre like Barzal or Aho.

 

[26Mats]

Pretty well. He protects the puck well along the boards, has great hands, and a knack for getting open. Likes to slow down the tempo. Good defensive instincts as a winger too.


Of course he can take faceoffs and support down low. I think he could score 50 goals from the right wing with a nice playmaking centre like Barzal or Aho.

Why are you looking to move Monahan than?

What do you think you could get for him?

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Makes sense from your point of view.

KK (Kotkaniemi) and Suzie (Suzuki) are our two building blocks that we'll build the team around. Both 20 year old centers. No way we'd trade them, especially not for a 27 year old winger that will be a UFA in two years.

I also get that, but I just don’t see the point in trading Johnny unless we’re filling a major organizational hole. I also agree that we should be keeping him. I think major change is coming this off-season in Calgary.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Why are you looking to move Monahan than?

Because we have better centres than him, and yet he keeps getting utilized in the most important centre role.

Because we have too many lefthanded shots, and he's the one I would move out before Tkachuk, Bennett, or Gaudreau, all of whom deserve to be on PP1.

Because his counting stats inflate his trade value for us, which gives us the best chance of improving as a team.

What do you think you could get for him?

I don't know. I really like the idea of a Monahan + Hanifin for Dylan Cozens + Brandon Montour trade. That would balance our roster out profoundly. I'd love to see us roll:

Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Gaudreau - Bennett - Lindholm
Dube - Cozens - Lucic
Jankowski - Ryan - Zavgorodniy

Giordano - Brodie
Kylington - Andersson
Valimaki - Montour

Rittich
Talbot


PP1

Tkachuk
Gaudreau - Cozens- Bennett
Andersson

PP2

Lucic
Dube - Lindholm - Mangiapane
Kylington

PK1
Backlund - Lindholm
Giordano - Andersson

PK2
Bennett - Ryan
Kylington - Brodie

PK3
Mangiapane - Jankowski
Valimaki - Montour

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Because we have better centres than him, and yet he keeps getting utilized in the most important centre role.

Because we have too many lefthanded shots, and he's the one I would move out before Tkachuk, Bennett, or Gaudreau, all of whom deserve to be on PP1.

Because his counting stats inflate his trade value for us, which gives us the best chance of improving as a team.



I don't know. I really like the idea of a Monahan + Hanifin for Dylan Cozens + Brandon Montour trade. That would balance our roster out profoundly. I'd love to see us roll:

Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Gaudreau - Bennett - Lindholm
Dube - Cozens - Lucic
Jankowski - Ryan - Zavgorodniy

Giordano - Brodie
Kylington - Andersson
Valimaki - Montour

Rittich
Talbot


PP1

Tkachuk
Gaudreau - Cozens- Bennett
Andersson

PP2

Lucic
Dube - Lindholm - Mangiapane
Kylington

PK1
Backlund - Lindholm
Giordano - Andersson

PK2
Bennett - Ryan
Kylington - Brodie

PK3
Mangiapane - Jankowski
Valimaki - Montour

Honestly Monahan and Hanfin should be able to land us Cozens, Montour and Reinhart. Maybe we add Jankowski.

 

[Mobiandi]

I still think we can take advantage of the Caps situation

McMichael > Cozens

 

[Flames Fanatic]

I still think we can take advantage of the Caps situation

McMichael > Cozens

Caps situation? Of not having much in the way of cap space?

 

[Mobiandi]

Caps situation? Of not having much in the way of cap space?

Of being desperate for another cup run.

I think that few Capital players/prospects/futures are going to be off limits this off-season

 

[Kranix]

I still think we can take advantage of the Caps situation

McMichael > Cozens

I sure wish McMichael had slipped in the draft

 

[Bounces R Way]

I sure wish McMichael had slipped in the draft

He did. At least further than he should have. Picked at #25 right before ours at #26. Wanted him or Tomasino really bad last year and of course they go right before.

I'm satisfied with the Pelletier pick tho.

 

[HugginThePost]

You could say this about everyone on the roster, which is why we can't afford to give away anyone. You can win with several of those guys (see St. Louis). You can't win if you only have one of those guys.

Except St. Louis plays a totally different game than the Flames. They play a heavy game. They get buy in from the players. The play as a team.

Also, we don't have anyone in the same realm as O'Reilly. If we had him, then Johnny could excel in his role. But we have Sean instead. The guy that seems to be deathly allergic to any kind of physical play.

 

[HugginThePost]

Huberdeau is one of the least involved players in the league defensively. Such a floater who relies enormously on Barkov to do the heavy lifting. At least that is what I saw this year.

Johnny is definitely more cognizant of his responsibilities but simply can’t execute them at a high level do to his stature.

Can't or doesn't?

There are several small players in the NHL that excel at getting to the tough areas and digging out the puck. Johnny doesn't because why? Because he's a goal scorer? Because he's a setup man?

Shouldn't we be asking all the players to be responsible defensively?

Johnny gets a free pass because he's a skilled winger?

The Oilers have a small skilled winger that puts up PPG and is a honey badger on the forecheck.

 

[HugginThePost]

Because we have better centres than him, and yet he keeps getting utilized in the most important centre role.

Because we have too many lefthanded shots, and he's the one I would move out before Tkachuk, Bennett, or Gaudreau, all of whom deserve to be on PP1.

Because his counting stats inflate his trade value for us, which gives us the best chance of improving as a team.



I don't know. I really like the idea of a Monahan + Hanifin for Dylan Cozens + Brandon Montour trade. That would balance our roster out profoundly. I'd love to see us roll:

Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Gaudreau - Bennett - Lindholm
Dube - Cozens - Lucic
Jankowski - Ryan - Zavgorodniy

Giordano - Brodie
Kylington - Andersson
Valimaki - Montour

Rittich
Talbot


PP1

Tkachuk
Gaudreau - Cozens- Bennett
Andersson

PP2

Lucic
Dube - Lindholm - Mangiapane
Kylington

PK1
Backlund - Lindholm
Giordano - Andersson

PK2
Bennett - Ryan
Kylington - Brodie

PK3
Mangiapane - Jankowski
Valimaki - Montour

What in the world has Bennett done to deserve a PP spot over Sean??

 

[HighLifeMan]

Can't or doesn't?

There are several small players in the NHL that excel at getting to the tough areas and digging out the puck. Johnny doesn't because why? Because he's a goal scorer? Because he's a setup man?

Shouldn't we be asking all the players to be responsible defensively?

Johnny gets a free pass because he's a skilled winger?

The Oilers have a small skilled winger that puts up PPG and is a honey badger on the forecheck.

It’s not in his fabric or DNA as a player. We simply can’t just expect him to flip a switch after playing the game a certain way so successfully for so long.

As far as Yamamoto.. yes he plays a different and more tenacious game but also can’t hold a candle to Johnny’s offensive abilities or produce at Johnny’s level either. It’s a tad premature to call Kailer a PPG player in the NHL after just 25 strong games in which he had an oiSH% of 16%, and a personal SH% of 25%. Mangiapane had a similar run to end the year too and didn’t have the luxury of playing alongside the most productive player in the NHL this past season.

You have to take the good and the bad with Johnny. Ward did ask the top line to focus on becoming better 200 foot players this past year and look what happened.. both Johnny and Monahan had their worst seasons as professionals to date. It remains to be seen if that will better them as players moving forward or not.

 

[Bounces R Way]

As much as it can get frustrating to watch Johnny avoid contact or give up the puck in lieu of taking a big hit, I can't really blame him for it.

He weighs 165lbs in a league with some absolute monster defenseman, if he wants to have a long career in the NHL he really doesn't have much of a choice but to play that way.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

People just need to stop caring about what Gaudreau isn’t and start appreciating him for what he is.

that’s why games 1-3 were so frustrating because he wants to win but they were trying to play dump and chase because it works for other lines. But he is literally a handful of players in the league who consistently gets clean zone entries when he wants to.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Honestly I just don’t understand why every coach we have has to attach Johnny and Mony to the hip. It’s so frustrating. Both are really good players but if they aren’t producing, change it up. Even Ryan got Johnny going last year.

 

[Tofveve]

That line's freefall started at the AS break in 2019. Prior to that they were arguably the best line in hockey over the 3 months prior.

But before that, Johnny didn't have lengthy stretches of poor play and/or lack of effort. Chalk that one up to Monahan who year after year after year took a quarter to a third of the season off. Was he pissed in 2019 not getting an AS nod along with Johnny? Regardless, as was predictable, Mony's play fell off the yearly cliff and it didn't recover in 2019 nor since. 19/20 was truly the first poorish year for Johnny but again dealing with a centre who took 1/4 to a 1/3 of the season off every year, I can hardly not see the correlation. Add to that that Sportsnet and other sources didn't place Monahan as a top 20 C last year and I'm sure in years prior. He's got the quick release and positioning to get 30 goals every year. And that #1 C spot even strength and on the PP. Given all that 30 goals doesn't have the same gravitas.

Gaudreau's highlight package is already as deep as any flame prior (minus Iggy's fights and hits). He's arguably my favorite Flame ever, or at least right there with Fleury and Niewendyk and Iggy and Kipper. Maybe throw Al into that mix too.

Love the guy and would dearly miss him . . .

That allllll said, something's got to give. I'd get rid of Mony first, but it may be too late for that.

 

[HugginThePost]

That line's freefall started at the AS break in 2019. Prior to that they were arguably the best line in hockey over the 3 months prior.

But before that, Johnny didn't have lengthy stretches of poor play and/or lack of effort. Chalk that one up to Monahan who year after year after year took a quarter to a third of the season off. Was he pissed in 2019 not getting an AS nod along with Johnny? Regardless, as was predictable, Mony's play fell of the yearly cliff and it didn't recover in 2019 nor since. 19/20 was truly the first poorish year for Johnny but again dealing with a centre who took 1/4 to a 1/3 of the season off every year, I can hardly not see the correlation. Add to that that Sportsnet and other sources didn't place Monahan as a top 20 C last year and I'm sure in years prior. He's got the quick release and positioning to get 30 goals every year. And that #1 C spot even strength and on the PP. Given all that 30 goals doesn't have the same gravitas.

Gaudreau's highlight package is already as deep as any flame prior (minus Iggy's fights and hits). He's arguably my favorite Flame ever, or at least right there with Fleury and Niewendyk and Iggy and Kipper. Maybe throw Al into that mix too.

Love the guy and would dearly miss him . . .

That allllll said, something's got to give. I'd get rid of Mony first, but it may be too late for that.

It was 2018, not 2019, that his play went from Hart quality to scrub level.

He hasn't come close to his pre-2018 All Star Break level since.

Not even close.......

 

[FlamerForLife]

It was 2018, not 2019, that his play went from Hart quality to scrub level.

He hasn't come close to his pre-2018 All Star Break level since.

Not even close.......

2018-19 he had 99 points, it was after the 2019 all-star game that his production fell a bit.

 

[Tofveve]

It was 2018, not 2019, that his play went from Hart quality to scrub level.

He hasn't come close to his pre-2018 All Star Break level since.

Not even close.......

*Delete

I think it was the 2019 AS game. Had to work that through again.

 

[Tofveve]

2018-19 he had 99 points, it was after the 2019 all-star game that his production fell a bit.

Actually you are right and I was right.