Salary Cap: Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations?

Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations?


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The CyNick

Freedom of Speech!
Sep 17, 2009
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For the exact reason I questioned. Is that team good enough to win a cup? Plenty of their fans wanted to rebuild this offseason and they're having a great year.

Rebuild for what though? If they are playing well and can win a round or two in they playoffs, what's wrong with that? Team can rebuild anytime.

Most people says the same about the Leafs when Lou got here. Next thing you know we're in the playoffs and gave a top team everything they could handle.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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My ideal scenario was to keep Lou for one more season, primarily because I thought he could handle these contracts. I also thought the Zaitsev deal was a complete failure, his biggest blunder as GM. That said, Lou was seasoned and had a real rep with agents as a hardass, felt we could use that experience going into this complex negotiation, Dubas at his side getting experience. Perhaps the wrong year for a rookie GM to figure it out. I submit the handling of Nylander as an example.

Others can disagree, but keeping the old vet one more year with a true transition to Kyle seemed a solid course given this is a huge year for our GM.

I agree with you 100%, but I believe it was Shanny's plan that Dubas take accountability for the 3 Amigos contracts, and sign them to his deals as new GM as opposed to inheriting them from Lou Lam as he was seen by Shanny as departing.

Now Shanny and Dubas can't point the fingers elsewhere as it will be their cap management issues and only theirs when it comes to JT and the 3 Amigos.
 
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cookie

Fresh From The Oven
Nov 24, 2009
6,922
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Oven then stomach
Trotz...and .930 goaltending from Robin Lehner.
The Islanders were porous defensively last year... not so much this year. Why do our systemic issues still remain? The right hand side defenders are still there and the coach insists on breakout strategies that are ill-suited for player personnel. For all the hot goaltending Trotz is getting, Andersen isn't too far off from that standard of play...
 
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Pookie

Wear a mask
Oct 23, 2013
16,172
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The Islanders were porous defensively last year... not so much this year. Why do our systemic issues still remain? The right hand side defenders are still there and the coach insists on breakout strategies that are ill-suited for player personnel. For all the hot goaltending Trotz is getting, Andersen isn't too far off from that standard of play...

There’s a motivation there.

JT left. Leo was run out of here. Martin was benched and kicked out after donating his face. Lou moved to the sidelines for a new calculator.

It will catch up to them but right now they are this year’s Vegas Cinderella Story.
 

ITM

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...
Jan 26, 2012
4,552
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Leafs 20-8-0 in first 28 = .700
vs
Leafs 9-9-2 in last 20 = .500.

The first is without Nylander and the last 20 with him.

The first 28 games is also while missing Matthews for 14 (or 1/2) of them.

With Matthews and Nylander in the last 20 the Leafs are playing at .500

Riiight...You're proving my point. Insert mitigating factors and the reasonable inference must be, the team is playing .500 hockey because of them not absent them and that the club's record is an accurate reflection of where they should be presented as.

That doesn't mean one isn't aware of what needs need to be met. But the needs don't obscure what the club is doing irrespective of those needs.

In fact the below reply - your reply - supports the conclusion that our club, even while only maintaining performance from last season to this, is not a .500 club:

Statistically not much has changed

Last year 105 points vs this year 60 points in 48 games = 103 points.

Last year 277 GF vs this year on pace 287 GF

Last year 232 GA vs this year on pace for 234 GA

Last year goal differential +45 vs this year on pace +52

League wide scoring is up but Leafs are only trending towards +10 goals for and +2 GA on the season and about the same amount of points.

So are we a 105, 104, 103 point club? Or are we a .500 club? Can the two be the same thing?
 

thewave

Registered User
Jun 17, 2011
40,269
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In a thread about poor management decisions, you don’t feel it’s reasonable to consider the leader?

I believe that Shanny should be held accountable and the president generally gets two GMs. Lou was not fired for lack of success and does not count in this case. I would say that I would like to see Shanahan either take on Stevie Y or do both President and GM duties.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
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Riiight...You're proving my point. Insert mitigating factors and the reasonable inference must be, the team is playing .500 hockey because of them not absent them and that the club's record is an accurate reflection of where they should be presented as.

That doesn't mean one isn't aware of what needs need to be met. But the needs don't obscure what the club is doing irrespective of those needs.

In fact the below reply - your reply - supports the conclusion that our club, even while only maintaining performance from last season to this, is not a .500 club:

This seems like your mounting the OJ Simpson defense here. ;)

The Leafs are 9-9-2 since Dec 1st in their last 20 games which equals playing .500 hockey (ie 20 points over last 20 games) over a length that is equal to 1/4 an NHL season. Its not because of injuries to Matthews or missing Nylander because those players played in those last 20 games, so not a valid reason for the teams decline in performance.

I'm showing you the bloody glove as evidence, and you're claiming if it doesn't fit you must acquit. :wg:

The season stats I included show that they were a 105 point team last year and on the overall season are still on pace for that amount, despite only playing .500 hockey in the 2nd quarter of the season..Their hot start now absorb by their current struggles and the addition of 30 goal man JT has simply maintained status quo in comparison to last year.

Still 1/2 a season to go, but Leafs are trending downwards as PP%, PK%, GF/g are all declining as are the losses increase as the wins decrease and the goals against go up. So Leafs need to turn things around as they're capable of better and have shown it already (even when missing key players to injury).

The facts don't lie, so I'm not sure exactly what your taking objection to?
 
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ITM

I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...
Jan 26, 2012
4,552
2,523
This seems like your mounting the OJ Simpson defense here. ;)

The Leafs are 9-9-2 since Dec 1st in their last 20 games which equals playing .500 hockey (ie 20 points over last 20 games) over a length that is equal to 1/4 an NHL season. Its not because of injuries to Matthews or missing Nylander because those players played in those last 20 games, so not a valid reason for the teams decline in performance.

I'm showing you the bloody glove as evidence, and you're claiming if it doesn't fit you must acquit. :wg:

The season stats I included show that they were a 105 point team last year and on the overall season are still on pace for that amount, despite only playing .500 hockey in the 2nd quarter of the season..Their hot start now absorb by their current struggles and the addition of 30 goal man JT has simply maintained status quo in comparison to last year.

Still 1/2 a season to go, but Leafs are trending downwards as PP%, PK%, GF/g are all declining as are the losses increase as the wins decrease and the goals against go up. So Leafs need to turn things around as they're capable of better and have shown it already (even when missing key players to injury).

The facts don't lie, so I'm not sure exactly what your taking objection to?

I am objecting to the description of a larger picture that incites sky falling conclusions from premises that imply cloudy with a 10% chance of rain.

Note the red? The Leafs last 20 games dates to Dec.6th, not Dec.1st. William Nylander returned Dec.6th. Dec. 5th, the club was second overall with a plus goal differential of +29. I'll let you calculate the difference in the twenty games he's played since returning twenty games ago.

You said: "not a valid reason for the teams decline in performance" re: injuries, Nylander's return, etc over the last twenty games. Noting the record and generalizing the team as a .500 hockey club isn't an argument. It's a description that infers the conclusion without a valid premise. As in: The club has played .500 hockey for the last twenty games, therefore they are a .500 hockey club because they've played poorly.

What changed twenty games ago? Why is it important to ask the question? Chiefly your selection of a sample size that's exactly twenty games. But equally, the return of William Nylander that bridges the previous run of success it took the club to get nine wins and the time after it took the club to get nine wins i.e. your selected sample size of twenty games.

Now, we can call the fact that the club has played .500 hockey over precisely 20 games as being the most important fact in the claim. But I think other facts: Nylander, injuries, etc...as underlying causes paint a BUT FOR picture that's much more accurate than simply describing the state of the club without noting points of congruence that contributed to the state of the club. As in, BUT FOR Nylander returning. BUT FOR Andersen getting injured. BUT FOR Matthews playing while recovering from injury. But more accurately the sum of BUT FOR: Nylander returning plus the injury to Andersen plus Matthews playing while recovering from injury.

I suppose it could all be coincidental and incidental and all invalid as explanation, but it seems awfully coincidental that within twenty games the record suffers just as these (and other) factors supplement one another.

You know when Cochrane had Simpson try on the glove, the prosecution missed the mitigating factor of the other glove that Simpson put on in order to properly determine a true fit. The glove actually didn't fit, Mess. Mitigating factors, Mess. Mitigating factors that if you don't specifically identify them obscure one's case, for better, or worse.

I'm not omitting commonly accessible information. I'm doing the opposite. And I'm asking that you make your case without excluding those mitigating factors.
 

jrgtml67

Registered User
Sep 12, 2011
5,457
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Looks like he may get Matthew's done before the deadline. Unless he is massively over paying him.. I'd say he learnt his lesson with William. Also if he can get him done this early he has a long time to focus on just Marner. That said he cant continue dialogue regarding Marner till after the season
 

jrgtml67

Registered User
Sep 12, 2011
5,457
945
I am objecting to the description of a larger picture that incites sky falling conclusions from premises that imply cloudy with a 10% chance of rain.

Note the red? The Leafs last 20 games dates to Dec.6th, not Dec.1st. William Nylander returned Dec.6th. Dec. 5th, the club was second overall with a plus goal differential of +29. I'll let you calculate the difference in the twenty games he's played since returning twenty games ago.

You said: "not a valid reason for the teams decline in performance" re: injuries, Nylander's return, etc over the last twenty games. Noting the record and generalizing the team as a .500 hockey club isn't an argument. It's a description that infers the conclusion without a valid premise. As in: The club has played .500 hockey for the last twenty games, therefore they are a .500 hockey club because they've played poorly.

What changed twenty games ago? Why is it important to ask the question? Chiefly your selection of a sample size that's exactly twenty games. But equally, the return of William Nylander that bridges the previous run of success it took the club to get nine wins and the time after it took the club to get nine wins i.e. your selected sample size of twenty games.

Now, we can call the fact that the club has played .500 hockey over precisely 20 games as being the most important fact in the claim. But I think other facts: Nylander, injuries, etc...as underlying causes paint a BUT FOR picture that's much more accurate than simply describing the state of the club without noting points of congruence that contributed to the state of the club. As in, BUT FOR Nylander returning. BUT FOR Andersen getting injured. BUT FOR Matthews playing while recovering from injury. But more accurately the sum of BUT FOR: Nylander returning plus the injury to Andersen plus Matthews playing while recovering from injury.

I suppose it could all be coincidental and incidental and all invalid as explanation, but it seems awfully coincidental that within twenty games the record suffers just as these (and other) factors supplement one another.

You know when Cochrane had Simpson try on the glove, the prosecution missed the mitigating factor of the other glove that Simpson put on in order to properly determine a true fit. The glove actually didn't fit, Mess. Mitigating factors, Mess. Mitigating factors that if you don't specifically identify them obscure one's case, for better, or worse.

I'm not omitting commonly accessible information. I'm doing the opposite. And I'm asking that you make your case without excluding those mitigating factors.

To me our decline was losing Andersen for 3 weeks. In that time we played CBJ and Nick Foligno put teams on notice..that our D sucked down low. Since that specific game, we have been exploited in that area. Andersen needs time to shake off rust, but moreover we need D help. It very obvious Foligni was right. Nylander doesnt have the excuse anymore of missing camp. Hes shown glimpses of his old self but I think it's a confidence issue. When it rains it pours. Jt is slumping, Matthew's, Kadri, Nylander..Rielly, Jake. The only player not is Marner. You cant win with one guy on..oh and Kapenen has been good.

I hope Dubas can ink Matthew's early, as he said. Itll paint a much more clear picture of what we can or cant do trade wise. Makes me think Dubas is going to go after Pieterangelo or Parakyo. If he were going after a lesser guy like Gudas or more a rental then it wouldn't matter if Matthew's signed before or after
 
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Bomber0104

Registered User
Apr 8, 2007
15,056
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With the Matthews deal signed, how's everyone feeling now?

*In light of this new contract I've allowed voters the option to change their vote in case they now feel differently*
 

I am Canadian

AM34|WN88|MM16
May 22, 2008
6,443
2,390
Toronto
Matthews took him through the ringer, close to max money and straight to UFA. What exactly did Matthews sacrifice? 93% signing bonus as well
 

Funk21

Registered User
Mar 6, 2013
4,344
1,864
Toronto
Not at all, this is by far the worse situation I could have imagined. Matthews is not McDavid, he has not even scored more than 70 points once!!!!!!! yet we give him 11.63 and he gets to walk into free agency and he get all signing bonus money.

Zona you want a selfish 1C signed for 5years here is your man. Give us Hayton, Chychrun, Keller and Dvorak
 
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goleafsgo88

Registered User
Oct 6, 2010
342
20
Nope. Had high hopes for our management team but looks like Shanahan's "take less to win" mantra was just air.

All the other GMs seem to be able to comprehend the difference in leverage for RFAs and UFAs but I'm not sure the Leafs do. How are the Leafs giving lockout-insured deals without receiving either AAV or term concessions from the players? What about being in a sponsorship-laden market? Our value/$ cap management has been subpar and this could hurt them in maintaining the necessary depth to compete.
 
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Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,168
32,824
St. Paul, MN
He’s opted to spend the teams money on their best players, all of whom have been signed within the comparables. No reason to complain really.

Now if he starts to sign bottom of the lineup guys to big dollar/term deals I’d be less enthused
 

NK94

Registered User
Feb 5, 2019
1,153
1,585
We're just going to have to ditch the Connor Browns of the world and run lean on 4th line players and bottom pairing defensemen, which is kind of how it should be anyway.
 

diceman934

Help is on the way.
Jul 31, 2010
17,335
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He’s opted to spend the teams money on their best players, all of whom have been signed within the comparables. No reason to complain really.

Now if he starts to sign bottom of the lineup guys to big dollar/term deals I’d be less enthused
He overpaid twice now. There is no defence for these contracts.
His inability to prioritize will cost us very good players this summer. That is the net result.
 

Menzinger

Kessel4LadyByng
Apr 24, 2014
41,168
32,824
St. Paul, MN
He overpaid twice now. There is no defence for these contracts.
His inability to prioritize will cost us very good players this summer. That is the net result.

Losing Brown or Zaitsev this summer is nothing to be upset over.

The only tight cap year he Leafs will have his 2019/2020 season and after that the team will have more flexibility.
 
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JT AM da real deal

Registered User
Oct 4, 2018
12,140
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I just changed my vote. I think we just overpaid 2 guys in a row by a million each. Now I did also say i thought would happen but now I think for sure Mitch is getting a million more too. So count on Marner getting 10M now. When you add it up now we are trading Kappy or AJ which i was hoping we would not have to do. But it is now a pipe dream both those guys can be resigned. So with that being the case lets just go for it this year. Get another defensive dman and lets roll the dice we can beat Tampa.
 

17 Clark

Registered User
Mar 22, 2015
701
310
Honest question for Leafs fans:

Do you trust our rookie GM Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations?

With what's transpired with William Nylander, do you believe he's going to be able to sign both of Matthews and Marner, and if so, to team-friendly deals?

I look at his managerial career thus far and I think he did some good stuff with the Sault Ste Marie Greyhounds, but they don't pay players to play. They're drafted and/or recruited.

I'm also aware him and his team know how to play with the numbers a bit to capitalize on the Leafs' financial clout.

But in terms of actually negotiating, being tough, and standing-off with professional sports agents who've spent their entire careers on the other side of negotiations with NHL General Managers, do you think he has what it takes? He doesn't believe in using tough players, but does he believe in tough negotiations?

As one of the most defining matters facing this franchise after this season's end, I was wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this.
Quickly becoming the Chicago Blackhawks what is zero Stanley cups what to do with the next one mariner I think is better than Matthews
 
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