Salary Cap: Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations? Deux

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Where do you get your crystal ball from?

Lets get passed the 1st round and then we'll start looking towards a cup.

Or we can believe our team is good enough to get passed the first round and win a cup on a message board and that’s ok.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Whatever, Matthews and Nylander went for max money they could squeeze out. They are the first traded when the time comes to get guys like Rielly and Lilj etc signed.

I love my team but am sour on those two people. If even they aimed for fair contracts. Oh well.

Hope AM never sees the C.

Oh ffs are you right out of it!!! This is the worst post i have ever seen from you. Not that i recall any others really but cone on man lighten up!

I fully disagree, will not happen! Drops mic!

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Whatever, Matthews and Nylander went for max money they could squeeze out. They are the first traded when the time comes to get guys like Rielly and Lilj etc signed.

I love my team but am sour on those two people. If even they aimed for fair contracts. Oh well.

Hope AM never sees the C.

This post is more bearable if you envision sad violin music in the background.

 

[thewave]

This post is more bearable if you envision sad violin music in the background.

Organs

 

[BoredBrandonPridham]

Organs

It is quite dramatic so it might work too. But violins gives the appropriate tone.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

In the case of the Pens, if your team wins the the cup, why do contracts matter? Is the goal to win a cup or to manage to a margin?

Will you enjoy Matthews elite play any less because he is at 11.6 mil? Do you enjoy Tavares less because he is at 11 mil?

Fans need to stop being amateur capologists and get back to enjoying the on ice product. Leave the bean counting to the bean counters.

The Pens and the Black Hawks both signed their 2 marquee players to 5 year contracts after their RFA contracts expired and things seemed to work out well for them, multiple cups and Malkin/Crosby and Toews/Kane are all still with their respective teams. Maybe 5 year contracts are not all that bad of a thing.

So, in other words: "Who cares that our GM is doing a piss poor job. We'll still enjoy watching Tavares and Matthews lose in the first round due to lack of depth, right?"

And nobody is upset that it's a 5 year contract. Nope. What they're upset about is the aav attached to it. We'd be fine with that aav over 8 years.

 

[drewjenks]

Source that this was an option? Or like always you’re just talking out of your ass...

First of all .... I don't know you.

And .... yeah that was market value last summer.

- Marner had like 7 more points than Nylander over 2 years (an extra million is generous).
- You can add 1.5 million to Matthews AAV if it was 8 years instead of 6.

So yeah ... pretty accurate.

 

[Menzinger]

This has been done to death. Here is an easy guideline for you. 60 points 6mm. 70 points 7 mm. 80 pts 8mm. That assumes linearity of dollars per point which we know isnt the case. You were one of the first who said willy would be lowballed at 6mm. Showing a trend of over 90 points...an 8.5mm offer would have been a good compromise as an opening offer to help mitigate the risks on both sides. 10mm was a top level risk before the market moved if Marner could put up 100 pts and that was a real risk with Tavares joining the team. You dont mitigate risk for free. It has a real cost. That is why banks hedge interest rate related liabilities instead allowing rates to float. It is a very basic concept that u seem incapable of understanding.

Except here’s the thing: you keep pretending his first 40 games last season should just be ignored and real life doesn’t work that way. You can’t just ignore 1/2 a season’s worth of play because you like a player. For 3/4 of Marner’s NHL career sample size by last summer he was not playing at a 90 point pace.

He was proven 60-70 point player. The compromise would have been paying him like an 8 million one and hope for the next step.

 

[Notsince67]

Except here’s the thing: you keep pretending his first 40 games last season should just be ignored and real life doesn’t work that way. You can’t just ignore 1/2 a season’s worth of play because you like a player. For 3/4 of Marner’s NHL career sample size by last summer he was not playing at a 90 point pace.

He was proven 60-70 point player. The compromise would have been paying him like an 8 million one and hope for the next step.

I ignored nothing and was proved correct. You just hate Marner because he proved he was a far better player than Willy.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

So, in other words: "Who cares that our GM is doing a piss poor job. We'll still enjoy watching Tavares and Matthews lose in the first round due to lack of depth, right?"

And nobody is upset that it's a 5 year contract. Nope. What they're upset about is the aav attached to it. We'd be fine with that aav over 8 years.

Thats right nobody with a reasonable expectation cares.

 

[Menzinger]

I ignored nothing and was proved correct. You just hate Marner because he proved he was a far better player than Willy.

Lol this is a joke. Marner is one of my favourite Leafs of the last 20 years. I’m just not overly emotional about his contract.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

Thats right nobody with a reasonable expectation cares.

Yeah, I suppose it's unreasonable to expect our GM to give out the good deals that all of the other gm's give out. Completely unreasonable.

 

[Notsince67]

Lol this is a joke. Marner is one of my favourite Leafs of the last 20 years. I’m just not overly emotional about his contract.

Yet you advocated for a contract with less $$ per point than Willy with Marner having another year to prove himself. Take your bs somewhere else.

 

[rumman]

Organs

Classic Don Knotts:

 

[jrgtml67]

Where do you get your crystal ball from?

Lets get passed the 1st round and then we'll start looking towards a cup.

Main point was we will keep all 4. Thank God Burke isnt our GM he keeps saying it's not possible

 

[rumman]

I ignored nothing and was proved correct. You just hate Marner because he proved he was a far better player than Willy.

I think you hit the nail on the head, I don't get clinging to a untenable position.

 

[socko]

My opinion is that Marner would have been the most likely of the "Big 3" to take a team friendly deal. Doubt he does now though. The precedent has been set by Nylander and punctuated by Matthews.

In the end, they're all symptoms of what the real weakness is though: Kyle Dubas. He's amateur.

 

[Daisy Jane]

In the case of the Pens, if your team wins the the cup, why do contracts matter? Is the goal to win a cup or to manage to a margin?

Will you enjoy Matthews elite play any less because he is at 11.6 mil? Do you enjoy Tavares less because he is at 11 mil?

Fans need to stop being amateur capologists and get back to enjoying the on ice product. Leave the bean counting to the bean counters.

The Pens and the Black Hawks both signed their 2 marquee players to 5 year contracts after their RFA contracts expired and things seemed to work out well for them, multiple cups and Malkin/Crosby and Toews/Kane are all still with their respective teams. Maybe 5 year contracts are not all that bad of a thing.

considering i've stated my opinion several times. i'm not going to answer this. i'm sure you can find my thoughts on why this bothers me.

 

[jrgtml67]

Still dont get the arguing. If we keep all 4 and have decent guys around them I feel we will make it all the way.

Looks at Pittsburgh or Chicago in their hay day. They kept their big guns and every year esp at the TD made moves to acquire role guys. It's how you build around your elite that makes the difference. What not to do is what the Oilers did. Relied on McDavid, and never brought in the right guys below him to matter. First they should've got a better goalie..next either get 1 or 2 top 4 D or couple forwards. But biggest mistakes were their picks. So many high ones that haven't done anything.

We have drafted really well outside Gauthier the last 5 or 6 drafts we have nailed. Rielly, Nylander, Marner..Matthew's is a given. Then Dermott, Bracco looks close, Marchment, Sandin. I'm not incl tim yet because he keeps getting hurt before we see his NHL skill. Most recently Hollowell is killing it, Scott and Woll. Key is hitting on early picks but then getting the odd late pick that makes it.

Ultimately as dubas said, he will be judged on if he can bring home a cup. Let's say he does will anyone care about $ and cents spent on our elite..no. Now if we keep getting knocked out in the first round or even 2nd if we make it then yes. Media and fans will say he over spent on stars and could not afford the right role guys to compliment them

 

[Bedards Dad]

The AAV is fine for both of them if they had extra term on the contract. There is just no disputing that. It's like Dubas knows he's not going to around in 5 or 6 years so he screw it, it won't be my problem then, let the next GM take care of my mess.

Not caring about the next GM is signing long term contracts thatvscrew them. Shorter term allows flexibility.

Bad take.

 

[socko]

I haven't written off Dubas completely either. I think he's a sharp hockey mind. Kapanen was a good get in the Kessel trade. Muzzin looks like a winner. Tavares was a no-brainer. But he's just so awful at negotiating. Maybe he's too nice. I don't know. But he is horrible. Even in the Kessel trade, I think a good GM gets out of that without retention - Kessel is and was a great player. I wonder if Dubas realizes how weak of a negotiator he really is?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

W

Yeah, I suppose it's unreasonable to expect our GM to give out the good deals that all of the other gm's give out. Completely unreasonable.

Woooo,Slow down there big rig! So you are some kind capologist guru are ya now!

I've seen not one stick of constructive data to determine that this is bad management on a cap. Just b!tchin and moaning by opinionated posters with zero proof its bad. Zero!

Show off or blow off o suppose.

All you see here is dubas is no good, Nylander is no good, this is no good thats no good.

News flash everyone...... lots is good. Deal with it )

 

[Throw More Waffles]

W


Woooo,Slow down there big rig! So you are some kind capologist guru are ya now!

I've seen not one stick of constructive data to determine that this is bad management on a cap. Just b!tchin and moaning by opinionated posters with zero proof its bad. Zero!

Show off or blow off o suppose.

All you see here is dubas is no good, Nylander is no good, this is no good thats no good.

News flash everyone...... lots is good. Deal with it )

Dubas just handed out 2 horrible contracts spanning about 2 months, all at a time when every cent of our cap space is precious. This is based on direct comparables of other star players that sign nhl contracts. Of course people are critical.

And apparently we can only criticize cap hits of our players if we're professional "capologists"? What the f***? If our goaltender has a .600 save percentage, are we allowed to criticize? Or do we have to be professional goaltenders? If one of our star forwards is on pace for 5 goals over 82 games, are we allowed to criticize? Or do we ourselves have to be a star forward? Heck... are people allowed to criticize the President of the United States? Or do they themselves have to be a President of a major power?
What the hell is going on?

 

[morph]

Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations?

No.

Dubas is someone who can be overly optimistic about his players, especially those he had a role in drafting/developing.

This is a dangerous quality to have when the players you're managing are grown men with big egos, demanding 8-figure salary amounts.

Someone praised Dubas' ability to negotiate from a starting point of 14*8 contract by shortening the duration. I think his agent smelled blood in the water.

Matthews who hasn't cracked the 70 point mark, is an RFA, played some ok/uninspired playoff hockey-- but has the chutzpah to start his negotiation at an amount that would make him the highest paid player in the NHL . He ended up signing a contract that made him the second highest cap hit after Mcdavid. Why? Dubas.

Some have compared this contract with Malkin's back in 2008.

Malkin got his big contract after he had already gotten the Pens to the Stanley cup finals, scored 106 points in a season, and was a nominee for the Hart. In other words, Malkin was more of a sure thing. Malkin was paid to continue past production whereas Matthews' salary is based on his potential to produce like Malkin.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Dubas just handed out 2 horrible contracts spanning about 2 months, all at a time when every cent of our cap space is precious. This is based on direct comparables of other star players that sign nhl contracts. Of course people are critical.

And apparently we can only criticize cap hits of our players if we're professional "capologists"? What the ****? If our goaltender has a .600 save percentage, are we allowed to criticize? Or do we have to be professional goaltenders? If one of our star forwards is on pace for 5 goals over 82 games, are we allowed to criticize? Or do we ourselves have to be a star forward? Heck... are people allowed to criticize the President of the United States? Or do they themselves have to be a President of a major power?
What the hell is going on?

Thats your unbiased opinion I'm sure. No proof whatsoever efer