Do you still support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock?

[Chance on Chance]

Cleary: 98%
Bert: 20%
Sammy: 1%

If bert says he'll play for 750k holland will sign him

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Count me in the same camp that would be difficult/impossible to convince otherwise.

It sure seems that Kenny bringing Cleary back only added to the logjam at forward and actually made the team worse this season by taking a 3rd line/2nd PP spot away from Tatar or Nyquist.

Sure, Holland doesn't fill out the lineup card for each game, but he knew just like the rest of us that bringing back Run DFC to Babcock is like handing 82 heroin-filled syringes to a junkie... there's going to be some heavy usage going on

And God forbid the hints about Danny playing until he's 38/39 that Holland dropped after he signed end up result in an extension after this season... if that happens, then Kenny would making each of those Wings teams worse.

So there's that, I guess

Exactly. If you leave a hungry tiger in a room full of fat and slow children who are covered in honey, you can accurately predict the outcome.

We all knew that Tatar was either gonna get traded or sit in the press box the moment Cleary got brought back.

 

[Heaton]

Exactly. If you leave a hungry tiger in a room full of fat and slow children who are covered in honey, you can accurately predict the outcome.

We all knew that Tatar was either gonna get traded or sit in the press box the moment Cleary got brought back.

Do Tigers like honey?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Do Tigers like honey?

Not sure, but i imagine it can't hurt. The tiger obviously, not the children.

I am basing my knowledge of big cat diets on Family Guy.

 

[Chance on Chance]

I have been pretty against some of these older guys signings and agree Holland needs to get more ruthless. The Cleary decision and Sammy signing were the most disappointed I have been with him during his GM tenure, third would be trading for Wendel Clark or the Roberta Lang trade.

Lang trade wasn't that bad. Pretty sure he was top 5 in scoring when he got traded and only for a 1st and fleishman

 

[Heaton]

Lang trade wasn't that bad. Pretty sure he was top 5 in scoring when he got traded and only for a 1st and fleishman

Actually, I think he was leading the league in scoring. Might have won if not for the injury later in the season.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

OK, you think Holland has done everything possible to make this team better. I don't, you're not going to convince me otherwise.

No. No I haven't. I was confused and to this day I was against not only signing Dan Cleary, but Drew Miller as well. Once again, you're using strawmen. I'm talking about 2009 off season. And it's quite obvious you don't have a legitimate response to my argument therein. The fact you tried to defeat my argument with a suicide attack (sacrificing your own point by stating I don't know anything, either) convinces me. To be frank, I guess I won't understand why people think Holland could have done a better job when they can't identify where Holland could have done a better job.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Actually, I think he was leading the league in scoring. Might have won if not for the injury later in the season.

Doubt it. Lang's icetime went from 21+ minutes to 16+ minutes in Detroit

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Lang trade wasn't that bad. Pretty sure he was top 5 in scoring when he got traded and only for a 1st and fleishman

Yeah, but never liked him as a hockey player. I know why people were excited, but he wasn't going to be a good fit and I wasn't happy about it. Was just sharing my personal disappointments, two of which came in the last two summers which isn't a good trend.

In all honesty I agreed with the logic at the time of the trade for Quincey more, obviously that backfired, but I didn't like the Lang trade at the time.

 

[Heaton]

No. No I haven't. I was confused and to this day I was against not only signing Dan Cleary, but Drew Miller as well. Once again, you're using strawmen. I'm talking about 2009 off season. And it's quite obvious you don't have a legitimate response to my argument therein. The fact you tried to defeat my argument with a suicide attack (sacrificing your own point by stating I don't know anything, either) convinces me. To be frank, I guess I won't understand why people think Holland could have done a better job when they can't identify where Holland could have done a better job.

He could've made a better attempt to keep both Hossa and Franzen. He could've moved Hudler and Cleary (or whatever). He could've made the necessary changes for that to happen. But he decided to keep the depth and go from there.

This team would have been more successful with a top 6 of Datsyuk/Z/Franzen/Hossa with some younger players or even project players than Datsyuk/Z/Franzen/Filppula/Hudler. And that's just 2009-2010.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

No. No I haven't. I was confused and to this day I was against not only signing Dan Cleary, but Drew Miller as well. Once again, you're using strawmen. I'm talking about 2009 off season. And it's quite obvious you don't have a legitimate response to my argument therein. The fact you tried to defeat my argument with a suicide attack (sacrificing your own point by stating I don't know anything, either) convinces me. To be frank, I guess I won't understand why people think Holland could have done a better job when they can't identify where Holland could have done a better job.

Yeah I was pretty against the Miller signing as well. It is still a far cry from he should be fired, but in my opinion and I am one of the biggest Holland supporters it is hard not to have had your faith shaken a little the last couple summers. At least this summer he made a couple other moves I agreed with, last summer was a dumpster fire though.

 

[Heaton]

Doubt it. Lang's icetime went from 21+ minutes to 16+ minutes in Detroit

He was a PPG before getting injured, pretty sure it was possible.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Would have claimed Urbom today and unloaded Lashoff onto waivers. It is more fun to be an arm chair GM than an actual GM though.

 

[Flowah]

I posted about it earlier but we have 7 forwards in the next 3 years that won't be able to clear waivers and good ones too that have a real hence of making it in the nhl

That sounds horrible.

Instead of slowly integrating our young talent, we're going to dump 2+ lines worth of kids into the meatgrinder basically all at once.

That's not how you build a team. zzzz

 

[newfy]

That sounds horrible.

Instead of slowly integrating our young talent, we're going to dump 2+ lines worth of kids into the meatgrinder basically all at once.

That's not how you build a team. zzzz

Yep and we're not really talking about Emmerton quality players either. Guys like Ferraro and Sheahan are the types that will build a bottom 6 into a Cup calibre squad. I think Ferraro is one of those guys you can put in the top 6 as well. Theres no way they risk losing these guys, maybe they actually just plan on doing a massive youth movement.

I guess after this year Eaves, Cleary, Bertuzzi, Sammy, and Alfie could all be gone. Plus Emmerton probably wont be qualified.

Thats 6 roster spots and not really important ones that can be filled by Ferraro, Sheahan, Nyquist, Tatar, Glendening and maybe re sign one or give Callahan the 13th forward spot maybe.

On D, Quincey gone and Ouellet up full time.

Gustavsson gone in net, Mrazek up.

It seems like a lot of youth but theyre in mostly easy spots in the line up and the bottom 6. Maybe if we're lucky this will be the only year that old plugs get signed to take the spot of youth. But ya in hindsight how the hell does Miller get that contract?

 

[Frk It]

That sounds horrible.

Instead of slowly integrating our young talent, we're going to dump 2+ lines worth of kids into the meatgrinder basically all at once.

That's not how you build a team. zzzz

That's what they did with our defense.

"Oh **** Lidstroms gone?"
Guess you can play now Smith and Kindl. Good luck!

 

[JmanWingsFan]

He could've made a better attempt to keep both Hossa and Franzen. He could've moved Hudler and Cleary (or whatever). He could've made the necessary changes for that to happen. But he decided to keep the depth and go from there.

This team would have been more successful with a top 6 of Datsyuk/Z/Franzen/Hossa with some younger players or even project players than Datsyuk/Z/Franzen/Filppula/Hudler. And that's just 2009-2010.

There's this thing called the Salary Cap. Came into existence in 2006. It made having Franzen and Hossa on the same team impossible. Hudler left anyways, and Cleary was still useful back then.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

There's this thing called the Salary Cap. Came into existence in 2006. It made having Franzen and Hossa on the same team impossible. Hudler left anyways, and Cleary was still useful back then.

Cleary had some kind of NMC.
The only realistic option to clear space at forward might have been Filppula. But he had just been signed to a 5-year deal and was an up-and-coming youngster who just centered the team to the cup

 

[Heaton]

There's this thing called the Salary Cap. Came into existence in 2006. It made having Franzen and Hossa on the same team impossible. Hudler left anyways, and Cleary was still useful back then.

As useful as Hossa? Nope. And teams make room all the time. Sharp, Hossa, Kane, Toews. No problem.

Cleary had some kind of NMC.
The only realistic option to clear space at forward might have been Filppula. But he had just been signed to a 5-year deal and was an up-and-coming youngster who just centered the team to the cup

Nah, if the Wings make it clear they don't want Cleary they could've moved him. Cleary loves it here because the feeling is mutual.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I'd rather have a guy who knows how to win and how to get people prepared rather than make a lineup that all fans agree with. I don't think puck possession is the only way to win and while the Wings have moved away from the classic sense, it's still there with the best players.

The problem is talent. Holland hasn't reloaded talent, give Babcock more talented players and it'll be amazing how much better of a coach he 'becomes. Nyqusit and Tatar are good, but it's not enough and if you think Holland has given Babcock enough talent, I don't agree with that.

Most games won since he joined the league, most playoff games won (I think?) olympic gold etc... even though I don't agree with him all the time, I trust him more than I do Holland.

That's great. But Babcock isn't the only coach in the league that "knows how to win."
12 coaches have been to the conference finals in the last 4 years.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

As useful as Hossa? Nope. And teams make room all the time. Sharp, Hossa, Kane, Toews. No problem.



Nah, if the Wings make it clear they don't want Cleary they could've moved him. Cleary loves it here because the feeling is mutual.

But they didn't because that's now how the Wings do things.

I wish to God it was. But it isn't. We both know this wasn't a realistic option. ESPECIALLY with the NTC

 

[Heaton]

That's great. But Babcock isn't the only coach in the league that "knows how to win."
12 coaches have been to the conference finals in the last 4 years.

And yet, he's still voted best coach or second best in the majority of the polls done by executives and players. A coach is only as successful as the rosters they're given. Look at Scotty, he had the best rosters any coach has ever had and he made the most of them.

 

[tag0519]

If you guys are sick of them, the Isles will take 'em for sure.... and we'll take Devellano back too!!

 

[JmanWingsFan]

As useful as Hossa? Nope. And teams make room all the time. Sharp, Hossa, Kane, Toews. No problem.

Look. Understand this.

Cap space didn't exist to fit Hossa and Franzen on the same team. You couldn't clear adequate cap space to fit them on the same team. The reason why they fit was because all the cap space was taken up by the core of Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, and Filppula.

You think Holland could have done this?

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($7.500m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($2.250m)
Ville Leino ($0.800m) / Kris Draper ($1.583m) / Dan Cleary ($2.800m)
Kirk Maltby ($0.883m) / Darren Helm ($0.599m) /
Justin Abdelkader ($0.850m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($7.450m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)
Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m)
Andreas Lilja ($1.250m) / Brad Stuart ($3.750m)
Brett Lebda ($0.650m) /
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood ($1.417m)
Brad Stuart ($3.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $58,827,920; CAP PAYROLL: $60,712,323; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): -$1,884,403


Here, Mr. "I know better than Ken Holland": Get us out of cap hell, while maintaining a 23 man roster and keeping both Hossa and Franzen on the team. Here's the Free Agent list for 2009, since I'm nice. And here's the 2010 list, to get an idea who might have been available via trade.

And I really despise it when people bring up the example of Chicago. Chicago barely made it back to the playoffs after dismantling their team. Chicago was the first playoff victim ever in Phoenix Coyotes history. The only reason they won the cup last year was because they were the only complete team in the Western Conference, not to mention they had by far and away the best defense corps in the league.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

If you guys are sick of them, the Isles will take 'em for sure.... and we'll take Devellano back too!!

No. I'm pretty sure this is just a sect of people who don't like these guys. You can't have them.