Do you still support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock?

newfy

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Jul 28, 2010
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Rattled about Nyquist and Tatar and the second PP unit but Im gonna give it more than one game to decide either need to be fired
 

WingedWheel1987

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Jan 11, 2011
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Holland gets a 1/10. If he doesn't give Babcock, garbage like Cleary and Sammy, he has no choice but to play Tatar. Nyquist rotting in the AHL is 100% Ken Hollands fault. He refuses to decide what kind of team he wants to build. He talks about a youth movement, but tries to assemble a cup contending roster by signing garbage like Cleary and Sammy. That will only hurt the franchise in the long run and you will have nothing to show for it in the short term.

Babcock has made some really poor choices too. Gator on the first line, but Babcock will still be a good coach as long as you don't give him the garbage players he likes to play. It took me about three years to get on the get rid of Kenny bandwagon and I will give Babcock the same amount of time. This is year two and it's not looking good.
 

Debrincat93

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All Holland has done is put forth a winner.. babs winning % since joining us as been asinine. We were 1 game away from winning a second cup a few years ago during his tenure.

We vastly exceeded expectations last year.

What more could you want? i mean seriously?
 
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RedWingsNow*

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Holland? Maybe. Babcock? I don't think so.

Get a guy who pays attention to detail without being such a moron about Abdelkader and Cleary and rookies.

Get a guy in here who coaches puck possession hockey and who isn't afraid to use small, skilled players.

We'd be a better team.
 

jaster

Unregistered User
Jun 8, 2007
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I don't always agree with everything each one does, but they both have a track record to fall back on and are very well respected by their peers. Those things carry a lot of weight. I still support both of them.
 

wuf

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Aug 16, 2012
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You can't argue with success really. However, I am very disappointed in the Cleary signing, especially since Tatar/Nyquist are at the end of their rope in terms of the AHL.

But then again, Bert and Sammy are done next year, so maybe that's two spots for them to fill. Or am I being too optimistic with that?
 

Heaton

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Feb 13, 2004
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Get a guy who pays attention to detail without being such a moron about Abdelkader and Cleary and rookies.

Get a guy in here who coaches puck possession hockey and who isn't afraid to use small, skilled players.

We'd be a better team.

I'd rather have a guy who knows how to win and how to get people prepared rather than make a lineup that all fans agree with. I don't think puck possession is the only way to win and while the Wings have moved away from the classic sense, it's still there with the best players.

The problem is talent. Holland hasn't reloaded talent, give Babcock more talented players and it'll be amazing how much better of a coach he 'becomes. Nyqusit and Tatar are good, but it's not enough and if you think Holland has given Babcock enough talent, I don't agree with that.

Most games won since he joined the league, most playoff games won (I think?) olympic gold etc... even though I don't agree with him all the time, I trust him more than I do Holland.
 

Chance on Chance

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Jul 15, 2009
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You can't argue with success really. However, I am very disappointed in the Cleary signing, especially since Tatar/Nyquist are at the end of their rope in terms of the AHL.

But then again, Bert and Sammy are done next year, so maybe that's two spots for them to fill. Or am I being too optimistic with that?

They're gone and we have Gus and Nyquist and Ferraro and Sheahan cant pass waivers next year. whether or not either of them are good enough to make the nhl is another question.
 

Chance on Chance

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Jul 15, 2009
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I'd rather have a guy who knows how to win and how to get people prepared rather than make a lineup that all fans agree with. I don't think puck possession is the only way to win and while the Wings have moved away from the classic sense, it's still there with the best players.

The problem is talent. Holland hasn't reloaded talent, give Babcock more talented players and it'll be amazing how much better of a coach he 'becomes. Nyqusit and Tatar are good, but it's not enough and if you think Holland has given Babcock enough talent, I don't agree with that.

Most games won since he joined the league, most playoff games won (I think?) olympic gold etc... even though I don't agree with him all the time, I trust him more than I do Holland.

That and what type of game do the wings play? We went from puck possession to I guess more of a skill type defensive system. You can look at other teams and generally see what style they play but the wings seem up in the air
 

DatsyukToZetterberg

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Apr 3, 2011
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As long as we are winning they have my support. I may not like some of their personal choices or how they are using players but as long as the Wings are winning games they'll get my vote of confidence. If we start to lose games & we don't change anything up & we don't put Tatar and/or Nyquist into the lineup then they'll start to lose my support.
 

Brick Top

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Mar 2, 2012
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Get a guy who pays attention to detail without being such a moron about Abdelkader and Cleary and rookies.

Get a guy in here who coaches puck possession hockey and who isn't afraid to use small, skilled players.

We'd be a better team.

I think Babcock's wheelhouse is coaching and relying on established, veteran NHL players to carry the mail for him. And IMO he's not great at working young guys into the team (compounded by Holland's love affair with keeping guys past their prime on the roster).

I can see why Team Canada likes him, given his track record and that he's handed a roster of NHL stars. You can't take the gold medal away from him, but given the TC roster and Vancouver hosting those Olympics, I think plenty of coaches could have guided that team to win the gold.

I'm not sure that Babs is the best guy for the job in bringing along young players and working those guys into the lineup, and that'll be a big factor for the Wings in the next few seasons.
 

Heaton

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Feb 13, 2004
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I think Babcock's wheelhouse is coaching and relying on established, veteran NHL players to carry the mail for him. And IMO he's not great at working young guys into the team (compounded by Holland's love affair with keeping guys past their prime on the roster).

I can see why Team Canada likes him, given his track record and that he's handed a roster of NHL stars. You can't take the gold medal away from him, but given the TC roster and Vancouver hosting those Olympics, I think plenty of coaches could have guided that team to win the gold.

I'm not sure that Babs is the best guy for the job in bringing along young players and working those guys into the lineup, and that'll be a big factor for the Wings in the next few seasons.

See, I don't think Babcock only likes veterans, he just has a hard time playing guys who are really only offense first. I think if Nyquist were here, he'd play over a veteran.

Holland on the other hand loves his vets, it's why he traded 8 first round picks or whatever. Its why he's always traded prospects. It's why he kept Chelios, Lilja, Maltby, Draper etc... for so long. It's why he brought back Jason Williams and signed Brad May.

Holland loves to keep all of his prospects and play them when he's exhausted all other options, he loves depth. He loves the way that if Bert gets hurt, guess what? We're not replacing him with some mediocre AHL player, we replace them with Nyquist or Tatar or XO or whatever. It's a weird way of doing business since you're not icing your best team, but he seems to change his mind during the playoffs.

Look at '08 and '09, a guy like Helm NEVER would've touched the ice in the regular season, but in the playoffs? He's in.
 

WingedWheel1987

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I definitely think Babs is a win now coach. I don't see him succeeding with a team like the Edmonton Oilers.

Heaton, what leads you to the belief that Holland changes his mind in the playoffs, or are you talking about Babcock?
 
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Flowah

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Nov 30, 2009
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I can see why Team Canada likes him, given his track record and that he's handed a roster of NHL stars. You can't take the gold medal away from him, but given the TC roster and Vancouver hosting those Olympics, I think plenty of coaches could have guided that team to win the gold.
It'd be like losing with the 2002 Wings roster. You'd have to be pretty incompetent.

I'm at 60-70% for both Babs and Holland. Maybe 60% for Holland, 70% for Babs.

Why?

Because ultimately the buck stops with Holland. If he didn't like the way the ship was being run, he could force his coach to see it his way. Otherwise, fire the guy. Teams do it all the time. And who gives a **** if Babcock loves Cleary? You're the GM, you make the team. You can listen to Babcock's reasoning, but nothing says you have to do what he wants.

They're better than an average GM and coach, but they are not making the most of the pieces they have.
 

Hobnobs

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Nov 29, 2011
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The Wings has forgotten how they developed the original core of the team. It wasn't by maturing the youth in the AHL. Everyone except Yzerman came to the team and was given a mentor.

Lidström - McCrimmon is a perfect example

Datsyuk and Hull/Fedorov another

They threw in loads of these youth into the battle that will eventually form a dynasty or near dynasty.

Kozlov (grand total of 50ish games in the AHL), Fedorov, Primeau, Drake, Johnson, Draper, McCarty, Konstantinov, Osgood and so on

None of them had to "mature" in the AHL for 3-5 years.
 

Johnz96*

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Tatar and Nyquist were easily top 5 Red Wing forwards in the preseason.
 

JmanWingsFan

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Aug 18, 2011
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Holland on the other hand loves his vets, it's why he traded 8 first round picks or whatever. Its why he's always traded prospects. It's why he kept Chelios, Lilja, Maltby, Draper etc... for so long. It's why he brought back Jason Williams and signed Brad May..
I would like to physically show my frustration with this statement in the form of a .gif

Bartlett-headdesk1.gif



No. Holland didn't sign Jason Williams and Brad May because he "loves his vets." (Seriously... I bet this Holland meme is only one year old, just proliferating from last year's offseason.) Holland signed Jason Williams and Brad May in 2009 because he needed to fill out a 23 man roster while having something that resembles cap space because of a CAP CRUNCH and a lack of viable prospect alternatives to turn to (because, you know, back in 2009 our farm system sucked). Vets with a $500,000 cap hit were pretty much all he could sign.
 

WingedWheel1987

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Jan 11, 2011
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So He doesn't love his vets, yet he keeps giving them two year extensions and keeps signing them even though they already have too many forwards with prospects that are already better than them and cheaper too.

dr-evil-right.gif
 
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The Zetterberg Era

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Nov 8, 2011
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I'd rather have a guy who knows how to win and how to get people prepared rather than make a lineup that all fans agree with. I don't think puck possession is the only way to win and while the Wings have moved away from the classic sense, it's still there with the best players.

The problem is talent. Holland hasn't reloaded talent, give Babcock more talented players and it'll be amazing how much better of a coach he 'becomes. Nyqusit and Tatar are good, but it's not enough and if you think Holland has given Babcock enough talent, I don't agree with that.

Most games won since he joined the league, most playoff games won (I think?) olympic gold etc... even though I don't agree with him all the time, I trust him more than I do Holland.

Nobody has won more in the league in Holland's job since he became one either and that is a much longer track record, so don't really understand when you make that point?

Who is a better coach Michel Therrien or Dan Byslma? In terms of preparing team and placing a system this isn't really close. Why did that work, changing the coaching voice often has the desired outcome you're going for.

Phil Jackson, Scotty Bowman, Chuck Daily, Terry Francona. Many of the better managers have spoken about the need to move from situations and the problem of a voice becoming stale.

Great general mangers need to tweak and keep up, Holland has fallen a little bit behind there, great coaches while some can be lifers the guys are particular hard on teams are going to have a shelf life. Babcock is a demanding coach and a guy that hard on a team and the fact is because of Babcock's accomplishments he does have a certain amount of power that I think you overlook. He gets a lot of say in who sticks around and who plays where. You want Holland to tie a hand behind his back and force his decision, quite frankly I would to see that. But he would throw a fit if Holland disrespected him like that, even if that is what needs to happen that kind of betrayal won't happen because each man respects the other a bunch.
 

Heaton

Moderator
Feb 13, 2004
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Auburn Hills
Nobody has won more in the league in Holland's job since he became one either and that is a much longer track record, so don't really understand when you make that point?

Who is a better coach Michel Therrien or Dan Byslma? In terms of preparing team and placing a system this isn't really close. Why did that work, changing the coaching voice often has the desired outcome you're going for.

Phil Jackson, Scotty Bowman, Chuck Daily, Terry Francona. Many of the better managers have spoken about the need to move from situations and the problem of a voice becoming stale.

Great general mangers need to tweak and keep up, Holland has fallen a little bit behind there, great coaches while some can be lifers the guys are particular hard on teams are going to have a shelf life. Babcock is a demanding coach and a guy that hard on a team and the fact is because of Babcock's accomplishments he does have a certain amount of power that I think you overlook. He gets a lot of say in who sticks around and who plays where. You want Holland to tie a hand behind his back and force his decision, quite frankly I would to see that. But he would throw a fit if Holland disrespected him like that, even if that is what needs to happen that kind of betrayal won't happen because each man respects the other a bunch.

And it's easier to become stale when the roster you're being given every year gets progressively worse. I didn't say I want Holland fired, I just said I trust Babcock more than him right now.
 

Heaton

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Feb 13, 2004
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Auburn Hills
No. Holland didn't sign Jason Williams and Brad May because he "loves his vets." (Seriously... I bet this Holland meme is only one year old, just proliferating from last year's offseason.) Holland signed Jason Williams and Brad May in 2009 because he needed to fill out a 23 man roster while having something that resembles cap space because of a CAP CRUNCH and a lack of viable prospect alternatives to turn to (because, you know, back in 2009 our farm system sucked). Vets with a $500,000 cap hit were pretty much all he could sign.

So, Jason Williams was a necessary signing? Todd Bertuzzi, Mikael Samuelsson and Dan Cleary were necessary? Re-signing Maltby when his usefulness was gone was necessary? C'mon dude. Back in '09 we sent down Helm, Leino and Ericsson.

Holland can manage better.
 

Winger98

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Feb 27, 2002
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See, I don't think Babcock only likes veterans, he just has a hard time playing guys who are really only offense first. I think if Nyquist were here, he'd play over a veteran.

Holland on the other hand loves his vets, it's why he traded 8 first round picks or whatever. Its why he's always traded prospects. It's why he kept Chelios, Lilja, Maltby, Draper etc... for so long. It's why he brought back Jason Williams and signed Brad May.

Holland loves to keep all of his prospects and play them when he's exhausted all other options, he loves depth. He loves the way that if Bert gets hurt, guess what? We're not replacing him with some mediocre AHL player, we replace them with Nyquist or Tatar or XO or whatever. It's a weird way of doing business since you're not icing your best team, but he seems to change his mind during the playoffs.

Look at '08 and '09, a guy like Helm NEVER would've touched the ice in the regular season, but in the playoffs? He's in.

He can't only like vets or we wouldn't have turned the roster over as much as we have over the past five or six years. Abdelkader, Helm, Smith, Kindl, Ericsson, Howard, Andersson, Emmerton, Lashoff, Dekeyser. With Nyquist and Tatar waiting in the wings right now. Some guys might not have been worked in when we wanted them to be,but they are there. They make up our roster. You can't be too vehemently against youth, or working in prospects, and have that sort of turnover.
 

WingedWheel1987

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
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Nyquist and Tatar aren't waiting in the Wings. They are rotting in the AHL or the press box.

Holland simply exhausted his supply of veterans before he gave any of the prospects a chance. He won't pick the prospect over the veteran if given the choice.

Rafi and Lidstrom retiring, with Stuart leaving gave him no choice but to start giving the kids a chance.
 

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