Do you still support Ken Holland and Mike Babcock?

[Heaton]

I made the roster years ago (and you listed Kronwall twice) and made it work. Feel free to dig it up, I don't need to prove my point again after I already did. It would've been difficult, would've caused some hurt feelings, but it would've made the team better for the long run.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Look. Understand this.

Cap space didn't exist to fit Hossa and Franzen on the same team. You couldn't clear adequate cap space to fit them on the same team. The reason why they fit was because all the cap space was taken up by the core of Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, and Filppula.

You think Holland could have done this?

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($7.500m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($2.250m)
Ville Leino ($0.800m) / Kris Draper ($1.583m) / Dan Cleary ($2.800m)
Kirk Maltby ($0.883m) / Darren Helm ($0.599m) /
Justin Abdelkader ($0.850m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($7.450m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)
Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) / Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m)
Andreas Lilja ($1.250m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m)
Brett Lebda ($0.650m) /
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood ($1.417m)
Jimmy Howard ($0.717m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $58,827,920; CAP PAYROLL: $59,962,323; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): -$1,134,403



Here, Mr. "I know better than Ken Holland": Get us out of cap hell, while maintaining a 23 man roster and keeping both Hossa and Franzen on the team. Here's the Free Agent list for 2009, since I'm nice. And here's the 2010 list, to get an idea who might have been available via trade.

And I really despise it when people bring up the example of Chicago. Chicago barely made it back to the playoffs after dismantling their team. Chicago was the first playoff victim ever in Phoenix Coyotes history. The only reason they won the cup last year was because they were the only complete team in the Western Conference, not to mention they had by far and away the best defense corps in the league.

We barely made the playoffs last year.
Chicago lost to Phx. But then Phx beat who? And who did the team that Phoenix beat play in round 1?

But I agree with you.
It was Franzen or Hossa.

That was the realistic, practical decision.

And Holland ****ING BLEW IT.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

I made the roster years ago (and you listed Kronwall twice) and made it work. Feel free to dig it up, I don't need to prove my point again after I already did. It would've been difficult, would've caused some hurt feelings, but it would've made the team better for the long run.

Lazy. Do it again. I'm not going to unearth that relic. I highly doubt you actually did it.

 

[Heaton]

I think it was an easy, familiar, decision too. Much like the moves he generally makes.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

I think it was an easy, familiar, decision too. Much like the moves he generally makes.

What decision? That decision didn't exist. You've proven to be reluctant to even show how this works. It couldn't have worked without mutilating the team and running a roster with less than 23 men.

 

[Heaton]

Lazy. Do it again. I'm not going to unearth that relic. I highly doubt you actually did it.

No thanks, we've beaten it to death. Believe whatever you want.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

No thanks, we've beaten it to death. Believe whatever you want.

That's a pathetic cop-out. You really don't know how it could have worked. At this point, you're just bashing Holland for no particular reason.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Look. Understand this.

Cap space didn't exist to fit Hossa and Franzen on the same team. You couldn't clear adequate cap space to fit them on the same team. The reason why they fit was because all the cap space was taken up by the core of Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, and Filppula.

You think Holland could have done this?

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($7.500m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($2.250m)
Ville Leino ($0.800m) / Kris Draper ($1.583m) / Dan Cleary ($2.800m)
Kirk Maltby ($0.883m) / Darren Helm ($0.599m) /
Justin Abdelkader ($0.850m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($7.450m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)
Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m)
Andreas Lilja ($1.250m) / Brad Stuart ($3.750m)
Brett Lebda ($0.650m) /
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood ($1.417m)
Brad Stuart ($3.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $58,827,920; CAP PAYROLL: $60,712,323; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): -$1,884,403


Here, Mr. "I know better than Ken Holland": Get us out of cap hell, while maintaining a 23 man roster and keeping both Hossa and Franzen on the team. Here's the Free Agent list for 2009, since I'm nice. And here's the 2010 list, to get an idea who might have been available via trade.

And I really despise it when people bring up the example of Chicago. Chicago barely made it back to the playoffs after dismantling their team. Chicago was the first playoff victim ever in Phoenix Coyotes history. The only reason they won the cup last year was because they were the only complete team in the Western Conference, not to mention they had by far and away the best defense corps in the league.

His cap hit was 6.7, so theres another 800k free

 

[Chance on Chance]

That's a pathetic cop-out. You really don't know how it could have worked. At this point, you're just bashing Holland for no particular reason.

and since were only a million over you trade Cleary and sing 3 500k guys

 

[Heaton]

That's a pathetic cop-out. You really don't know how it could have worked. At this point, you're just bashing Holland for no particular reason.

Nope. Would've been a rough situation until Rafalski retired or other moves were made, but it would've consisted of finding ways to move Cleary and potentially not signing Filppula until Hossa was signed. IMO the goal should've been re-signing Z, Franzen and Hossa then filling with the cheapest contracts possible. Would it have killed depth? Yep, but the Wings would've just had to rely on their core more than usual and wait for the kids to get ready and/or get lucky with a player or two off the scrap heap.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Nope. Would've been a rough situation until Rafalski retired or other moves were made, but it would've consisted of finding ways to move Cleary and potentially not signing Filppula until Hossa was signed. IMO the goal should've been re-signing Z, Franzen and Hossa then filling with the cheapest contracts possible. Would it have killed depth? Yep, but the Wings would've just had to rely on their core more than usual and wait for the kids to get ready and/or get lucky with a player or two off the scrap heap.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Kris Draper ($1.583m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($2.250m)
Ville Leino ($0.800m) / Darren Helm ($0.599m) / Dan Cleary ($2.800m)
Kirk Maltby ($0.883m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.850m) /
Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($7.450m) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)
Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m)
Andreas Lilja ($1.250m) / Brad Stuart ($3.750m)
Brett Lebda ($0.650m) /
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood ($1.417m)
Pavel Datsyuk ($.716m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $58,827,920; CAP PAYROLL: $59,912,323; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): -$1,084,403

Your words are meaningless until you demonstrate how this actually works. Once again, here are the conditions: A). You need 23 men on the roster B). You must keep both Franzen and Hossa on the roster at the same time. C). Something or someone must come back in any trade. The trade must be specific. The other team must be specified. D). Terms must be specified for any further FA signing.

And for your information: Everyone on that roster was already signed for the 2009-2010 season. Filppula was already signed. Cleary was already signed. Since we're assuming Franzen and Hossa are resigned, they are also already listed.

 

[Johnz96*]

Doubt it. Lang's icetime went from 21+ minutes to 16+ minutes in Detroit

And he had to actually concern himself with defense in Detroit.

 

[Frk It]

See, I don't think Babcock only likes veterans, he just has a hard time playing guys who are really only offense first. I think if Nyquist were here, he'd play over a veteran.

Holland on the other hand loves his vets, it's why he traded 8 first round picks or whatever. Its why he's always traded prospects. It's why he kept Chelios, Lilja, Maltby, Draper etc... for so long. It's why he brought back Jason Williams and signed Brad May.

Holland loves to keep all of his prospects and play them when he's exhausted all other options, he loves depth. He loves the way that if Bert gets hurt, guess what? We're not replacing him with some mediocre AHL player, we replace them with Nyquist or Tatar or XO or whatever. It's a weird way of doing business since you're not icing your best team, but he seems to change his mind during the playoffs.

Look at '08 and '09, a guy like Helm NEVER would've touched the ice in the regular season, but in the playoffs? He's in.

So what happens if no one gets hurt?

You ice an inferior team for the entire season and playoffs?
Thats' terrible logic.

And we don't have mediocre AHL players that would step in if injuries happend. A guy like Ferraro could do just as good, if not better than some players in our bottom 6. Sheahan could replace Emmerton or Andersson just fine once he got some games too.

 

[Chance on Chance]

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Henrik Zetterberg ($6.083m) / Valtteri Filppula ($3.000m) / Marian Hossa ($5.275m)
Johan Franzen ($3.955m) / Kris Draper ($1.583m) / Tomas Holmstrom ($2.250m)
Ville Leino ($0.800m) / Darren Helm ($0.599m) / Dan Cleary ($2.800m)
Kirk Maltby ($0.883m) / Justin Abdelkader ($0.850m) /
Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Nicklas Lidstrom ($7.450mDatsyuk) / Brian Rafalski ($6.000m)
Niklas Kronwall ($3.000m) / Jonathan Ericsson ($0.900m)
Andreas Lilja ($1.250m) / Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m)
Brett Lebda ($0.650m) /
GOALTENDERS
Chris Osgood ($1.417m)
Pavel Datsyuk ($6.700m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $58,827,920; CAP PAYROLL: $59,912,323; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): -$1,084,403

Your words are meaningless until you demonstrate how this actually works. Once again, here are the conditions: A). You need 23 men on the roster B). You must keep both Franzen and Hossa on the roster at the same time. C). Something or someone must come back in any trade. The trade must be specific. The other team must be specified. D). Terms must be specified for any further FA signing.

And for your information: Everyone on that roster was already signed for the 2009-2010 season. Filppula was already signed. Cleary was already signed. Since we're assuming Franzen and Hossa are resigned, they are also already listed.

Datsyuk is on this roster 3 times. Say were 1 000 000 over the cap, trade Cleary to any team that will take him for whatever. we have 1.8 million free and need 4 guys. Waiving Holstrom might save money? or maybe we sign Hossa and Franzen to a bit less each

 

[Heaton]

The conditions really aren't even fair either, we're only allowed to talk about what actually happened and nothing subjective like Hossa may have signed less had Holland budged a little bit. So again, believe whatever you want. If that's all Holland could do, so be it. But that's not the way I see it.

 

[Flowah]

The only reason they won the cup last year was because they were the only complete team in the Western Conference, not to mention they had by far and away the best defense corps in the league.

...

"The only reason the Hawks won last year is because they put together such a good team."

I mean... what?

 

[JmanWingsFan]

Datsyuk is on this roster 3 times. Say were 1 000 000 over the cap, trade Cleary to any team that will take him for whatever. we have 1.8 million free and need 4 guys. Waiving Holstrom might save money? or maybe we sign Hossa and Franzen to a bit less each

The cap hit is perfectly fine. For whatever reason, the text roster is glitching and putting Datsyuk on three times. It's not counting Datsyuk's cap hit three times.

The conditions really aren't even fair either, we're only allowed to talk about what actually happened

They're perfectly fair. You just don't want to do the work, or you understand that you can't. All I am asking is if you can provide specific examples of alternative avenues that Ken Holland could have taken to fit Hossa and Franzen on the roster while icing a 23 man roster. I don't want these "trade this guy and that" without any specific return or what team would have taken them. I gave you the FA list and the hypothetical trade market.

and nothing subjective like Hossa may have signed less had Holland budged a little bit. So again, believe whatever you want. If that's all Holland could do, so be it. But that's not the way I see it.

Oh please. IIRC, Holland offered a contract to Hossa with a cap hit of slightly under $5.00m. If Hossa rejected, then the 'savings' that you are theorizing would have been no more than $250,000 in cap space. That minuscule.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

There are plenty of other recent failures by Holland. Why bring up Hossa?

How about 24 hours ago, Gustav Nyquist and Tomas Tatar weren't playing on opening night? Holland knew he had too many players at the beginning of the off season, due to his failures from last off season and he went ahead and signed Dan Cleary anyway. And you don't need to dig through old posts to figure out how Ken Holland could have avoided this mistake.

"Danny, thanks for your years of service, but we have several prospects in the pipeline who are ready to play in the NHL that are already better than you and will cost half as much. We really value all you brought to this team over the years and we wish you the best of luck."

You can cut out the "better than you" part if you don't want to hurt the cagey old veteran's feelings.

That is what Ken Holland should have said to Cleary the moment he said he wanted to come back.

This does two things.

It doesn't compound the mistakes you made last year by signing Sammy and Tootoo, which frees up cap space and an even more valuable roster spot. This allows Nyquist and Tatar to play on opening night.

Instead, he did the opposite. The beauty of his decision to bring back Cleary, was that it magnified the failures from last off season.

 

[Frk It]

This does two things.

It doesn't compound the mistakes you made last year by signing Sammy and Tootoo, which frees up cap space and an even more valuable roster spot. This allows Nyquist and Tatar to play on opening night.

Instead, he did the opposite. The beauty of his decision to bring back Cleary, was that it magnified the failures from last off season.

Nailed it. Good post.

Can't disagree with anything you said.

 

[JmanWingsFan]

There are plenty of other recent failures by Holland. Why bring up Hossa?

Nice Strawman. I never threw my support behind signing Dan Cleary. NEVER. Save the tangent, please.

Why bring up Hossa? Because Hossa is, for whatever reason, the start of when Holland all of a sudden became the worst NHL GM ever in the history of forever. I should also mention that Hossa was brought up because that's the specific topic we are debating. We aren't debating Dan Cleary. We aren't debating Tomas Tatar. We aren't debating Mikael Samuelsson. We're debating the 2009 Off Season. And so far, I've successfully proven that you can't script the 2009 off season any differently to fit both Franzen and Hossa on the same roster. Thus proving all this nonsense that everything's gone downhill is a bunch of baloney. Did Holland screw up this offseason by signing Dan Cleary? Yes. He's hardly been the dumpster fire everyone is seemingly going out of there way to prove.

 

[Mount Royal]

I'm fine with Babcock, and will argue that he's the best coach in the league all day. That said, a coach is only as good as the talent he's given.

I've been a Holland supporter for a while now, but it's been fading. Not gone...but fading.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Nice Strawman. I never threw my support behind signing Dan Cleary. NEVER. Save the tangent, please.

Why bring up Hossa? Because Hossa is, for whatever reason, the start of when Holland all of a sudden became the worst NHL GM ever in the history of forever. I should also mention that Hossa was brought up because that's the specific topic we are debating. We aren't debating Dan Cleary. We aren't debating Tomas Tatar. We aren't debating Mikael Samuelsson. We're debating the 2009 Off Season. And so far, I've successfully proven that you can't script the 2009 off season any differently to fit both Franzen and Hossa on the same roster. Thus proving all this nonsense that everything's gone downhill is a bunch of baloney. Did Holland screw up this offseason by signing Dan Cleary? Yes. He's hardly been the dumpster fire everyone is seemingly going out of there way to prove.

Where did i mention you wanted Cleary back? I was merely trying to shift the discussion towards Holland's more recent failures.

Nobody thought he was a horrible GM the moment he signed Franzen. I am pretty indifferent on the matter. I agree he ended up signing the wrong player, but he thought Franzen was going to continue being the Franzen of 2008/2009. He made a mistake, but a mistake that he couldn't predict would happen.

We are debating whether or not you still have faith in Mike Babcock and Ken Holland. To some posters, signing Franzen over Hossa was the beginning of a long list of failures on the part of Ken Holland.

I just choose to bring up the more recent ones and the ones that could have been avoided, if Ken Holland still knew how to manage a hockey team at the most basic level.

He has been the dumpster fire everyone is making him out to be. Four years of bad offseasons, bad trade deadlines and bad player development.

Four years of PR nonsense and excuses.

We like our team. Opponents like our team too.
Market was too expensive. A pack of gum isn't five cents anymore.
Getting a healthy player back right before the deadline is like a trading for someone. No Kenny, IT'S NOT.

 

[Vladdy84]

I'm fine with Babcock, and will argue that he's the best coach in the league all day. That said, a coach is only as good as the talent he's given.

I've been a Holland supporter for a while now, but it's been fading. Not gone...but fading.

I disagree strongly. His lineups, allocation of playing time and refusal to play younger more talented players have prevented this team from reaching conference finals the past couple years IMO.

 

[Flowah]

I'm fine with Babcock, and will argue that he's the best coach in the league all day. That said, a coach is only as good as the talent he's given.

So you don't have any problems with the lineup decisions or second PP unit?

I don't think either guy is making optimal decisions, or even adequately optimal.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

You can minimize Babcock's stupidity by not giving him players like Sammy and Cleary.

Please refer to my fat and slow kids in honey example.

Holland wants to sign old and washed up veterans. He is the reason America's assisted living communities look like they were abandoned.

Stop signing washed up garbage and the coach who has an obsession with pieces of gritty crap won't be able to play them.

Coaches coach what the GM gives them. Holland has ignored Babcock before. Babcock asked for top six help after they lost to the Sharks the second time and Holland gave him nothing. There isn't any reason why he can't continue to ignore him.